Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 11: Clermont-Ferrand - Moulins, 179.8k

[Danskebjerge]

I see many experts criticizing the tactics of Jumbo and UAE (or the lack of it), and I agree with them overall. Basically it seems the choices they make do nothing to improve their situation, but they can afford to do strange things because they have strong riders. I guess it's good for the entertainment, but if you see a bike race as a game of chess, it's not very satisfying.

Why does UAE let Bjerg ride so hard in the first week - knowing that it will weaken him? And the number of totally random attacks from van Aert - it's the same as last year: sometimes he does put in an effort of a couple of minutes to help his captain, but in most cases it's just spontaneous attacking cycling for his own good.

Besides, there is being paid too much attention to Vingegaard having a teammate to pull for him on the climbs. In reality, it's not on the climbs that the helpers are needed the most, it's on the flatter sections. That's why Vingegaard hasn't really profitted from having Kuss in front of him - Pogacar was just using both of them as his own domestiques. Pogacar himself uses strong riders like Trentin to pull early without any clear goals. And in the final kilometers, he doesn't even sit on the wheels of his own teammates, he sits on Jumbo Visma's wheel because that's what he's most comfortable with (according to the team).

Many weirds things going on. Knuckleheads, is what Chris Horner would call them.

 

[Boehmand]

I see many experts criticizing the tactics of Jumbo and UAE (or the lack of it), and I agree with them overall. Basically it seems the choices they make do nothing to improve their situation, but they can afford to do strange things because they have strong riders. I guess it's good for the entertainment, but if you see cycling as a game of chess, it's not very satisfying.

Why does UAE let Bjerg ride so hard in the first week - knowing that it will weaken him? And the number of totally random attacks from van Aert - it's the same as last year: sometimes he does put in an effort of a couple of minutes to help his captain, but in most cases it's just random attacking cycling for his own good.

Besides, there is being paid too much attention to Vingegaard having a teammate to pull for him on the climbs. In reality, it's not on the climbs that the helpers are needed the most, it's on the flatter sections. That's why Vingegaard hasn't really profitted from having Kuss in front of him - Pogacar was just using both of them as his own domestiques. Pogacar himself uses strong riders like Trentin to pull early without any clear goals. And in the final kilometers, he doesn't even sit on the wheels of his own teammates, he sits on Jumbo Visma's wheel because that's what he's most comfortable with (according to the team).

Many weirds things going on. Knuckleheads, is what Chris Horner would call them.

If you want world class riders like Van Aert in your team, you need to give them freedom to pursue their own goals, otherwise they will just go elsewhere. It's a trade off, which has so far worked in Jumbo's favour.

Agree on Bjerg.

Whether you benefit from teammates pulling you on climbs, depends on the wind - and as we all know it can often be quite windy at altitude, and the effects of wind are maximised on many climbs, because there is zero cover from trees/buildings. So you can gain immense benefits from being in a teammate's wind shadow, unless there is a tail wind or no wind.

 

[RobertCrawley]

We can have one half of the screen showing the race... and one half showing Van Aerts race to the hospital. Will he make it in time? It is not a given who finishes first, imo.

Will he make the time cut?

 

[Danskebjerge]

If you want world class riders like Van Aert in your team, you need to give them freedom to pursue their own goals, otherwise they will just go elsewhere. It's a trade off, which has so far worked in Jumbo's favour.

Agree on Bjerg.

Whether you benefit from teammates pulling you on climbs, depends on the wind - and as we all know it can often be quite windy at altitude, and the effects of wind are maximised on many climbs, because there is zero cover from trees/buildings. So you can gain immense benefits from being in a teammate's wind shadow, unless there is a tail wind or no wind.

It was a generalization about teammates on climbs. I know it's good in the wind, and that there are other advantages, but it's not something that gives you big gains at the cost of your rivals. Bjerg pulled a lot on the climbs during the first stages - hard to see what advantage that gave UAE. It's like it's a symbol of dominance more than a tactical tool (just like in the Armstrong days for instance).

All in all, the strongest tactical weapon is the one we saw last year with both Vingegaard and Roglic attacking. It was that one situation that probably secured Vingegaard his GC win. It may not be possible for the teams to create a setup like that every year, but I would still think that the bigger teams should go more for that solution instead of having one dominant captain and a bunch of strong domestiques. (It would of course require a good amount of loyalty from both "captains".)

 

[RobertCrawley]

If you want world class riders like Van Aert in your team, you need to give them freedom to pursue their own goals, otherwise they will just go elsewhere. It's a trade off, which has so far worked in Jumbo's favour.

Agree on Bjerg.

Whether you benefit from teammates pulling you on climbs, depends on the wind - and as we all know it can often be quite windy at altitude, and the effects of wind are maximised on many climbs, because there is zero cover from trees/buildings. So you can gain immense benefits from being in a teammate's wind shadow, unless there is a tail wind or no wind.

I feel like Jumbo is missing opportunities. Pogi does not have anyone to match Wout. If Jonas gets a few seconds over the mountaintop or on a flat with Wout in the lead, Wout could pull Jonas away or last least put some serious pain into a chasing Pogi.

 

[DNP-Old]

This is pathetic.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Nice Neilson fist bumps Pello to start the day.

 

[KZD]

I think Pedresen is the best pick for today. He can win the stage in a bunch sprint or in the breakaway.

 

[Boehmand]

It was a generalization about teammates on climbs. I know it's good in the wind, and that there are other advantages, but it's not something that gives you big gains at the cost of your rivals. Bjerg pulled a lot on the climbs during the first stages - hard to see what advantage that gave UAE. It's like it's a symbol of dominance more than a tactical tool (just like in the Armstrong days for instance).

All in all, the strongest tactical weapon is the one we saw last year with both Vingegaard and Roglic attacking. It was that one situation that probably secured Vingegaard his GC win. It may not be possible for the teams to create a setup like that every year, but I would still think that the bigger teams should go more for that solution instead of having one dominant captain and a bunch of strong domestiques. (It would of course require a good amount of loyalty from both "captains".)

Apart from wind, it's a tactical tool because you control the tempo, either by keeping it high enough to dissuade attacks or to ensure it's not too high for your captain.

 

[topcat]

This is pathetic.

What is?

 

[KOM]

Nice Neilson fist bumps Pello to start the day.

Thats very nice of him

 

[Valv.Piti]

Make the stage harder, and you have a bike race. Make a flat race to appease sprinters, and you don't get a race.

 

[Boehmand]

I think Pedresen is the best pick for today. He can win the stage in a bunch sprint or in the breakaway.

I think it's Philipsen again.

The sprint is flat as a pancake, straight and with a tail wind.

Pedersen usually needs either a technical finish or a slight gradient, to tangle with the "real" sprinters.

The big unknown is of course fatigue, which is where strong men like Pedersen capitalise. - It was a very hard stage yesterday.

 

[DNP-Old]

What is?

Behaviour of the peloton. Amador doesn't even really attack but gets a gap, and the bunch is just sitting there, basically laughing at him for trying.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Make the stage harder, and you have a bike race. Make a flat race to appease sprinters, and you don't get a race.

It looks like the peloton has decided this will be a nice, relaxing day in France.

 

[Boehmand]

Behaviour of the peloton. Amador doesn't even really attack but gets a gap, and the bunch is just sitting there, basically laughing at him for trying.

I both agree and disagree.

A stage like today, is one where a big group could stay away until the line, because it is hilly most of the day.

But most of the break away artists are eyeing tomorrow, so they don't want to spend all day in the break today, compromising their chances tomorrow.

Grand Tours are always about managing strength and choosing carefully when to expend it.

 

[Boehmand]

The camera work at the Tour is always beautiful

 

[RobertCrawley]

Love the sunflower/Tour pics.

 

[Boehmand]

I see no wind in the trees, so don't quite understand what Soudal is doing here?

 

[Boehmand]

Sagan in picture at the back of the peloton, his best placement on the first 10 stages, is 13th

 

[Peter von]

I see no wind in the trees, so don't quite understand what Soudal is doing here?

Lefevre: If my riders cannot win they can suffer!

 

[Boehmand]

Am I the only one who find all the little white dots on the Jumbo jersey annoying?

I constantly find myself thinking it's salt, or dirt of some kind

 

[Salvarani]

Lefevre: If my riders cannot win they can suffer!

They MUST suffer!

 

[Ilmaestro99]

If you want world class riders like Van Aert in your team, you need to give them freedom to pursue their own goals, otherwise they will just go elsewhere. It's a trade off, which has so far worked in Jumbo's favour.

Mate Jumbo has now 25 WT victories this season. Many wins but only 1 by Van aert. He is not a big star of this team, he needs to fit into their goals or they should let him go .

What he did this TDF? Do stupid breakaways, get Hindley time on Vingegard, ruin team dynamics on stage 2 and generally be useless. They need to tell him to do what's best for vineggard this TDF as a priority, and if he feels up for it do some sprints after if he wants. But they shouldn't be letting him do random attacks in defiance of his leader, because he is easily replaceable.

 

[Lequack]

I guess this is it for today's stage. See you at 5km to go.