Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 16: Passy - Combloux, 22.4k (ITT)

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jaylew

jaylew

Mar 19, 2009
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Big Doopie said:
I respectively disagree.

I believe any rider officially sanctioned should be fair game in the racing threads. Because the racing threads also become ridiculous when posters make ludicrous comparisons to riders who have been sanctioned and whose performances were proven to be completely fraudulent.

My 2 cents.
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Honestly hadn't thought of that option. I'd have to give that some thought.

Of course, that's never the way the forum was as you could simply throw out accusations at anyone and everyone and that's exactly what happened pretty much every time someone won a race. If I'm comparing that to the way it is now, I'll choose the latter 100% of the time.
 
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RobertCrawley

RobertCrawley

Jul 3, 2022
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jaylew said:
I just don't think that says anything meaningful. It's a TT with a climb in the back half. I'm pretty sure no one was feeling great at that point. Could be that he went out too hard, could be he was disheartened by the splits, I just don't think him saying that means he was on bad form or something. He rode a phenomenal race. Now, if he suddenly has a DNS tomorrow due to Covid, that's another story.
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Not too much to read into it, no. But for him to say he was not feeling great means he wanted to communicate that he was not at his best.
 
F

FrontHeadlock

Jul 8, 2022
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DaveJones2 said:
That's the thing, he didn't - he only put 3 secs into Cavagna and 11 secs into Kung in the downhill / flat section T1-2. He seemed to be taking some risks in the downhill too.

As I wrote previously, he was also actually a few secs behind Ciccone's KOM winning T2-3 time.

Its the final T3-finish section where he put just under a minute into the nearest non-Pog competitor (Skjelmose). Pog was only 9 seconds faster than Skelmose through the same final section. That doesn't seem like enough.

This entire TT was perfectly suited to a GC contender with a good TT in the 3rd week of the Tour.

The more I look at it the more it looks like Vinge has done (certainly to the upper limit) what I'd kind of expect of these two, given how far ahead they are of the rest of the field in GC terms.

I personally think Pog under performed today compared to where he "should" have been based on the last 2 weeks, and Vinge has simultaneously had his best day. I think it's all more believable than the time gaps would initially imply.
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This is interesting analysis.

JV was likely also more aero than Pog in the last bit of the TT. Also, let's face it, if you are winning you are likely a lot more jacked up in that last 1-2kms as well.
 
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M

Martinstranger

Apr 7, 2018
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Poursuivant said:
Winning monuments is showing off now? lol

On a serious note though, it might actually make him really rethink his approach to 2024, this is two beatings in two years now.
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Oh... maybe I should have moved the :cool: to support it was a halfhearted attempt to be funny.

But I do believe there will be difference in riders who prepare to win the Tour and riders who prepare to win almost everything throughout the year. I can't remember a winner of Flanders and a winner of the Tour in recent years - but there might be?

Vingegaard has prepared all year for this stage and seemed very confident about the descent and every corner on the way - it looked a lot smoother than Pogacar and if he was going to the limit everywhere. Maybe it is just a difference in style?

Then there is the fatigue issue we have had discussions about on the forum, maybe it is showing in week 3 like JV have said all along. Time will show - we have another interesting stage tomorrow and like the Tour is going, it could be funny to take another swing;)

RobertCrawley said:
Tadej is an extremely likable rider and a great champion. So it's no wonder he has a huge following. But that doesn't make his competitors evil creatures from the pits of doom.
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He is a wonderfull rider and have done a lot of perfect races this year - at the same time he seems to be another friend I haven't met yet.

But people sometimes goes a bit to far when they write about competitors and you have to sort a bit in the comments. People can be more harsh online than they would be in real life and sometimes a little to eager to make a point.
 
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FrontHeadlock

Jul 8, 2022
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Big Doopie said:
Really? You find that funny. That someone goes all in to achieve something. And when they narrowly miss, you take pleasure from that?

Interesting.

Did you also torture animals when you were a kid?
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It's kinda funny that he finished *just* outside. He was 2nd the whole way until JV, Bonusgacar and Yates beat him at the very end.

In any event I wonder if he has a strategy going forward for the last 2 mountain days. Surely JV and Pog will take points on Col de la Loze and Ciccone is looking like a better climber on the other peaks, so seems like Powless' goose is cooked.
 
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nilfen

nilfen

Jul 10, 2012
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Assuming Pogacar and Vingegaard are on the same level

Danish TV did showed a test today, where the TT-suit and normal suit meant a difference of 20 seconds in 20 kilometer. Vingegaads suit was close to normal TT-suit than Pogacar's
Vingegaard's technique today was out of this world and must have gained him a lot of time
Vingegaard have had better preparation to this Tour than Pogacar
The bikes and the equipment can easily accound for another 20 seconds on today's course
Pogacar's bike change looks to have cost him

(edit: Pogacar rode without visor - also account for some loss of time)


Factoring these things up you can easily find a minute between two even rides.

I think they are two sides of the same coin, but JV and TJV just did everthing better today
 
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Boehmand

Boehmand

Mar 5, 2023
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nilfen said:
Assuming Pogacar and Vingegaard are on the same level

Danish TV did showed a test today, where the TT-suit and normal suit meant a difference of 20 seconds in 20 kilometer. Vingegaads suit was close to normal TT-suit than Pogacar's
Vingegaard's technique today was out of this world and must have gained him a lot of time
Vingegaard have had better preparation to this Tour than Pogacar
The bikes and the equipment can easily accound for another 20 seconds on today's course
Pogacar's bike change looks to have cost him

Factoring these things up you can easily find a minute between two even rides.

I think they are two sides of the same coin, but JV and TJV just did everthing better today
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In fairness we don't really know if they are riding in the official suit provided by the organisation, or in a copy provided by their own sponsor.

Armstrong alluded to the fact on his podcast yesterday, that back in the day he had Nike produce secret copies (with the TdF sponsor's logo on it), that he used for TTs.

If the material of the suit makes that much of a difference, that is what I'd do as team management, rather than lose 20 seconds on a TT.
 
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