Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 2: Vitoria-Gasteiz - Donostia/San Sebastián, 208.9k

[DNP-Old]

He's only a couple of billion people plus up on WVA in terms of name recognition.

I do not doubt that. However, that's hardly a representative measure. The list of global sport icons in cycling starts and ends with Lance Armstrong.

 

[Rackham]

This depends on that WvA being an absolute monster every time he goes to the Tour... so far he doesnt seem to be in the same great form as the last couple of editions. Obviously, he is still very good.

Also... where has Laporte been in the first couple of days? I have barely seen him and just looked it up now. He has finished 152nd and 124th. Maybe I have missed if he has crashed or is sick or something, havent been able to follow the whole stages.

Anyway, when everything is not clicking the cracks become more visible.

I have no idea why Laporte was assigned to do early stage work, even before Van Hooydonck. Maybe they'll rotate later.

As for 'cracks', Jumbo is IMO missing a good road captain or someone with influence on the entire team. I'm not just talking Rogla here (although he's definitely zen), I'm talking someone like Gesink or Tony Martin.

A GT squad isn't just about watts, it's about 'people'. And in Jumbo's Tour selection this year, Wout van Aert is pretty much the most experienced Jumbo 'veteran' who's been in the squad the longest (with Kuss, but he's got a very passive personality).

 

[Pirazziattacks]

He’s not just a rider = he’s not Olav Kooij (like someone mentioned Kooij to make an analogy, and he’s not just another domesticate). And yes, within cycling, he’s in the top 5 of big names, like it or not.

I seem to recall a time when perceived nationalism was frowned upon on this forum, was that only an anglo thing? It was thoroughly deserved of course, but I can't see why Dutch and Belgian fans are any less deserving of scorn.

Anyway WVA wants to have his cake and eat it at JV every year. He gets full team support from a classics squad that gets stronger every year, still gets a lot of team support for a guy in the strongest GC team in the peloton, and is only expected to do some work in exchange. If that isn't enough, I don't know what would be acceptable. Even MVDP, who has the entire Alpecin squad dedicated to supporting his goals, still helps out with sprint leadouts sometimes. Maybe he just didn't quite have the legs again today, would that be so shocking?

 

[RedheadDane]

Van Aert wasn't the only one who was a bit upset after yesterday's stage:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1675549208974176257

 

[Salvarani]

I have no idea why Laporte was assigned to do early stage work, even before Van Hooydonck. Maybe they'll rotate later.

As for 'cracks', Jumbo is IMO missing a good road captain or someone with influence on the entire team. I'm not just talking Rogla here (although he's definitely zen), I'm talking someone like Gesink or Tony Martin.

A GT squad isn't just about watts, it's about 'people'. And in Jumbo's Tour selection this year, Wout van Aert is pretty much the most experienced Jumbo 'veteran' who's been in the squad the longest (with Kuss, but he's got a very passive personality).

Yeah, and the impression I have is that Van Aert takes up a lot of the air in the room.

Vingegaard is mainly to himself or doesnt speak up. He does what the DS tells him to do. He is not the vocal leader that will guide the others. He is constantly speaking into the radio.

The DS has their work cut out for them this time. Still a lot of time left to get it right.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The biggest GC disappointment so far: O'Connor. What has happened with his watts?

 

[Pirazziattacks]

I do not doubt that. However, that's hardly a representative measure. The list of global sport icons in cycling starts and ends with Lance Armstrong.

So are you saying he is just a rider after all?

 

[DNP-Old]

So are you saying he is just a rider after all?

I didn't say anything in regards to that discussion or topic.

 

[Rackham]

Yeah, and the impression I have is that Van Aert takes up a lot of the air in the room.

Vingegaard is mainly to himself or doesnt speak up. He does what the DS tells him to do. He is not the vocal leader that will guide the others. He is constantly speaking into the radio.

The DS has their work cut out for them this time. Still a lot of time left to get it right.

I also don't think fans of either rider (Vingegaard & Van Aert) help matters either when both sides trade insults like "Vinge is egotistical!" versus "Van Aert is a donkey who should know his place!".

The blame rests on the shoulders of Grischa Niermann, something he himself was right about, for once. He has real trouble balancing everything in the car & adapting his tactics mid-race. It's not possible to have Vingegaard sit back & do nothing to help Van Aert yesterday after he pulled for Laporte in the Dauphiné. There's no consistency.

And before someone says (again) "he couldn't risk losing bonus seconds!", A/His team clearly didn't care about that because they were all pulling WvA for the win (& thus pulling Pog with him) & B/He was going to lose them anyway, unless he himself went off the front like Lafay did (but Pog should jump on that 100%). So when the risk is equal in all scenarios (aka losing those time bonuses), then Niermann just had to make the call about 5km from the finish (when it was clear they would sprint in a small bunch) to Vingegaard & say "a little help in the finale please Jonas, Van Aert can win this".

That's why the reaction has been pretty much unanimous (& not just from Belgian media, aka French Eurosport was saying the exact same stuff), i.e. Vingegaard should have helped.

 

[Volderke]

Those who say Vingegaard should absolutely keep his powder dry to win in the most clinical way, are defending a soul-less win.

The scenario that could have unfold if Vingegaard had some guts:
Lafay attacks, Vingegaard counters, wva wins the sprint, the team is celebrating, commentators are extatic, the general audience is admiring Vingegaard, Wva will pull like a superdonkey, and Vingegaard wouldn’t have lost a single chance winning the tour with a 1K pull (Pogacar rode a bit in the descend and he still ended up where his normal placing would be in the sprint, and fans love it).

Now there is frustration, no real leader initiative, no intelligent guiding from the team car (sorry to say but jumbo ds are among the worst I see when we get footage from the team car), and Wva who will probably pull out some days earlier if he doesn’t feel things are going his way in the tour.

You can all think that’s not ok (wva saving for worlds or pulling out early for his baby) but that will be the reality and thus Vingegaard not taking initiative could possibly backfire. Those who say Vingegaard shouldn’t do anything are ignoring the benefits of him doing something. Those benefits can outweigh the disadvantage of that (small) bit of help. So I really don’t understand why those saying Vingegaard shouldn’t do anything is, in this case, so much better for his gc chances. I still think it’s not.

 

[Bolder]

The blame lies with Wout. He's the supposed watt monster and superior flat sprinter. Why does he never attack? Why didn't he chase Lafay with barely more than 1 km to go? Worst case he drags a few of the fast men with him and he has to use his vaunted sprint speed from 400 m out. This guy shouldn't need a hand-delivered leadout to win a reduced bunch sprint. All the noise around this seems like some kind of internal polemics...

 

[Barnacle Bill]

If Rog was here instead of Vin he would have pulled for Wout!

(Just kidding )

It was interesting to see the interview with Adam Yates where he said he didn't try to lead out Pog at the end as he "gets in the way" at those speeds, so he stayed behind. I wonder how much Vingegaard could have achieved at that point, even if he made it back to the front in time to be useful. Not sure that last km is his territory even if it would be good for team harmony (his work for Laporte earlier in the year was pretty different in terms of speed and circumstances imo).

 

[RedheadDane]

Lafay attacks, Vingegaard counters

So, we have established that he was too far back to get to the front to pull, but he could have countered?

 

[Bolder]

If Rog was here instead of Vin he would have pulled for Wout!

(Just kidding )

It was interesting to see the interview with Adam Yates where he said he didn't try to lead out Pog at the end as he "gets in the way" at those speeds, so he stayed behind. I wonder how much Vingegaard could have achieved at that point, even if he made it back to the front in time to be useful. Not sure that last km is his territory even if it would be good for team harmony (his work for Laporte earlier in the year was pretty different in terms of speed and circumstances imo).

Agree. I don't want the TdF incumbent champion and prohibitive favorite doing a leadout with under 1 km. That is not his job, and the possibility of tangling wheels is high.

 

[Rackham]

Bruyneel says Vingegaard should have pulled for Van Aert at the end (with the positives from such an effort far outweighing the negatives):

View: https://youtu.be/A1q1pLclIYE?t=1065

 

[Rackham]

If Rog was here instead of Vin he would have pulled for Wout!

(Just kidding )

Rog isn't even in the Tour... simply because he couldn't reach an agreement with the team (he said in an interview a couple of weeks ago).

I only mention this because it touches on an issue Jumbo has, i.e. team roles & who does what, in which stage & at what time. They're all about "win together" but the realities of cycling can & often do bite (realities being the fact going for multiple objectives with multiple leaders is tough & can go wrong).

 

[RedheadDane]

Agree. I don't want the TdF incumbent champion and prohibitive favorite doing a leadout with under 1 km. That is not his job, and the possibility of tangling wheels is high.

Yeah, imagine if he had pulled - if he'd been able to - and had crashed out. Then everyone would have talked about how stupid he had been.

 

[Volderke]

Yeah, imagine if he had pulled - if he'd been able to - and had crashed out. Then everyone would have talked about how stupid he had been.

Imagine if he crashed somewhere in the belly of that group. People would have said if only he led out the sprint like in dauphine, he wouldn’t be in the danger zone somewhere halfway in that group… if and if.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Those who say Vingegaard should absolutely keep his powder dry to win in the most clinical way, are defending a soul-less win.

The scenario that could have unfold if Vingegaard had some guts:
Lafay attacks, Vingegaard counters, wva wins the sprint, the team is celebrating, commentators are extatic, the general audience is admiring Vingegaard, Wva will pull like a superdonkey, and Vingegaard wouldn’t have lost a single chance winning the tour with a 1K pull (Pogacar rode a bit in the descend and he still ended up where his normal placing would be in the sprint, and fans love it).

Now there is frustration, no real leader initiative, no intelligent guiding from the team car (sorry to say but jumbo ds are among the worst I see when we get footage from the team car), and Wva who will probably pull out some days earlier if he doesn’t feel things are going his way in the tour.

You can all think that’s not ok (wva saving for worlds or pulling out early for his baby) but that will be the reality and thus Vingegaard not taking initiative could possibly backfire. Those who say Vingegaard shouldn’t do anything are ignoring the benefits of him doing something. Those benefits can outweigh the disadvantage of that (small) bit of help. So I really don’t understand why those saying Vingegaard shouldn’t do anything is, in this case, so much better for his gc chances. I still think it’s not.

Come on now, be serious.

 

[Riek s]

Those who say Vingegaard should absolutely keep his powder dry to win in the most clinical way, are defending a soul-less win.

The scenario that could have unfold if Vingegaard had some guts:
Lafay attacks, Vingegaard counters, wva wins the sprint, the team is celebrating, commentators are extatic, the general audience is admiring Vingegaard, Wva will pull like a superdonkey, and Vingegaard wouldn’t have lost a single chance winning the tour with a 1K pull (Pogacar rode a bit in the descend and he still ended up where his normal placing would be in the sprint, and fans love it).

I agree with most. But if Vingegaard had guts he would have been gone together with Pogacar tbh and it would never have gotten to a very reduced group sprint. (and he would have lost just as much time to Pog as now)

Also people are misunderstanding the 'taking a pull of 200meter' to help his team with a full fledged mass sprint lead-out (or even a lead-out).
But like you said, WVA is in a strange position this tour with him probably leaving early and him being(seemingly) a level below last year (which seems true for all JV besides Ving)

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Dawg would have pulled

 

[Jagartrott]

Agree. I don't want the TdF incumbent champion and prohibitive favorite doing a leadout with under 1 km. That is not his job, and the possibility of tangling wheels is high.

The possibility of tangling wheels is obviously lower if you lead out a sprint than if you are doing a sprint in the middle of a group of riders. The argument is thus opposite: if safety would've been the main concern, he should have pulled instead of followed.

 

[RedheadDane]

Imagine if he crashed somewhere in the belly of that group. People would have said if only he led out the sprint like in dauphine, he wouldn’t be in the danger zone somewhere halfway in that group… if and if.

Probably why he was at the very back of the group...

Well, maybe Vingegaard could have pulled for a little bit - and that might, or might not have actually caught Lafay - but there's no saying that he should have, as if that was his job.

 

[Jagartrott]

The blame lies with Wout. He's the supposed watt monster and superior flat sprinter. Why does he never attack? Why didn't he chase Lafay with barely more than 1 km to go? Worst case he drags a few of the fast men with him and he has to use his vaunted sprint speed from 400 m out. This guy shouldn't need a hand-delivered leadout to win a reduced bunch sprint. All the noise around this seems like some kind of internal polemics...

What would have happened then was that Pogacar would have most definitely gone with him, and would have likely won that stage. You can't do a sprint at 1 km to go, and then another one half a minute later and still beat Pogacar. You're turning this into a caricature. Van Aert was the best sprinter of that group, but not by a big margin, so he could not go with Lafay. His team let him down there, he made the right call himself.

 

[bNator]

On the cobbled stage, Rog was the best placed GC Jumbo rider on the road after Vingegaard had his mechanical (& panic attack). He was ahead & deserved more support than he got (the hay bale incident happened later when he only had Laporte with him).

Now what we're seeing is the same sort of B.S. which Roglič endured (without a fuss because he's a trooper) sort of blow up now in this Tour, with different personalities (for example Vingegaard's post-race interview yesterday was entirely tone deaf, albeit funny for neutrals who just want some drama). I think it's also worth reminding people that in terms of overall GC placing before the cobbled stage in last year's Tour, Rog was only one second behind Vingegaard. He lost everything that day & it's amazing that Pog took the bait on Granon, considering the time deficit.

And Wout van Aert is pretty much paid to win stages in the Tour. Do you think he has a contract which says "domestique duties for Vingegaard"? No. It's no use remonstrating about who does what in the team or what a rider's duties should be, i.e. it's way too late for that now. Everyone knows what WvA will do because that's what he's been doing over the past 4 TdF editions.

Last year, it was obvious that TJV prioritised getting their leader (apparently Vinge) safely to the end with minimum loss to the finish over winning the cobbled stage. That's why they called Wout back. There doesn't need to be domestique mentioned in the contract (which most likely says "obey your DS") to know that on that particular day, Wout was a domestique to Vinge. Not because he wanted to help him because he's such a nice guy and Vinge should kiss his behind after the stage but because his DS told him to.

I get it that some display of gratitude form Vingegaard's side would be wise (if nothing else) and to be fair, he did that in ITT. But yesterday, I don't know... Vingegaard is under completely different type of pressure now... Wout had all the means to win the stage, he couldn't do it and now somehow that has something to do with Vingegaard being ungrateful?

And to be fair, this whole scandal is complete media construct anyway. Wout being angry, throwing bikes - do we even know he was angry at Vingegaard? He could be angry at himself, for all we know...