Track star to GT hero

[Mellow Velo]

Because the world needed another Sky thread that the same five people can participate in

Indeed, but why is it in the Clinic in the first place?
The title doesn't suggest the nefarious act.
Most of the debate has remained on topic, too.
Surely this thread should be in an appropriate section, such as track or road racing.

 

[Joachim]

Well, there is a recent precedent for this resulting in thread closure and accusation of trolling

 

[will10]

Well, there is a recent precedent for this resulting in thread closure and accusation of trolling

From the OP:

Doesn't look a natural or normal progression at all. It actually looks like a "off the charts" phenomena.

Does that belong in the road racing section?

 

[Master50]

Could the rise of riders from track be more related to opportunity and funding?
Australia and to a similar extent Britain have stronger track programs and opportunity for medals at the big O every 4 years. In these countries there are only 4 road medals and what 20 or more on the track? For cycling to get funding they need medals and track is the game so everybody with cycling talent gets on a track bike. Their track exploits get them pro contracts and we find out what other talents they have.
In Europe Road racing has a lot of support and talent ID. Guys are not encouraged to go track but very early they see who can climb and they don't ride the track.
Very sinister indeed.

 

[Joachim]

Could the rise of riders from track be more related to opportunity and funding

Of course it is.

All the recent crop of succesful UK riders have come through the track programme because that is where the funding was, and that was pretty much the sole focus of British Cycling in the late 90's. The road stuff is the progression from that. British Cycling is based in Manchester Velodrome. Sky's office is down the road. The guy behind the track, road and Sky teams is Brailsford.

 

[MatParker117]

Boardman has won Rainbow Jersey's on the Track and Road (and worn Yellow).

 

[DirtyWorks]

So you have guys like Coppi, Altig

The point you seem to be missing is a Coppi/Altig example is that their track wins happened practically on top of their Grand Tour podiums. Let's review Altig's history:
Leaves the track where he absolutely dominated with his brother.
First-year on the road, wins the Vuelta, wore the maillot jaune for several days, won stages and finished 30th in his first TdF.

From Altig's perspective, the 2012 Sky grand tour squad should have had many, many more podiums for years now. But no, there was nothing like Altig's results to suggest Sky's unbelievable 2012. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudi_Altig

As for Boardman, there are a large number of specialists spending time in the lead throughout Grand Tour history. That is completely different than an Altig/Coppi/Merckx

FYI: Moser was an early EPO doper. An old story for some, Moser was doped by Conconi who got the money to dope Moser and fellow Italian cyclists from the IOC/UCI under the guise of making an EPO test that worked.

 

[thehog]

So you have guys like Coppi, Altig, Moser, Berzin, McGee, Wiggins plus some non-climbers (Ekimov, Boardman, Bobridge ... ) and you throw out words like phenomena and statistically almost impossible

This has got to be a wind-up? I don't usually comment but as a student of maths I feel a tad annoyed by this thread.

There's a lot of suspicious things about Wiggins but this isn't one of them.

I discounted Berzin by my earlier post because he was part of Ferrari's Gewiss team. He was the infamous 1-2-3.

Ekimov never got near Top 20 in a GT (and of course from the school of Lance/Ferrari).

Did Boardman ever finish a GT?

Bombridge hasn't even ridden one.

McGee Top 8 at the Giro so not a bad transformation.

My statistics are sound. Yours not so. It's only when one adds emotion into their science does one make errors.

 

[pedaling squares]

Prior to Riis, a bald Danish bloke had never!
Prior to Fignon a guy with a pony tail and glasses had never!
Prior to Evans an ex Mountain biker had never!
Prior to Roche an Irishman had never!
Prior to Hinault a badger had never!

On a subject that has already been done to death on the Sky thread.

Next time, hoggie, make it a little less obvious

The thing about hoggie's trolling is, he has honed his craft to the point that he can avoid a quick closure of his threads. Artful trolling is something that I appreciate, and as this thread contains a legitimate question wrapped around (let's not kid ourselves) some decent trollcraft, I find it fun to read. Our little piglet has questioned whether veterans of short, intense efforts on a flat surface have proven successful at massive distances over variable terrain. A legit question, of course designed purposefully to highlight Sir Wigans' unusual transformation. Countering with Berzin played directly into thehog's hands, and I'm sure he broke out into song when the name Ekimov appeared. The smile is fading, as Master50 has injected common sense into the thread. Course design, quality of opponents, and team tactics play into this as well. Wiggins did very well in le tour de soft pedaling, and he was perfect for the '12 course against a peloton sans Contador. I don't know if you can win in Indurain fashion without doping, but if you can it would be with a favourable course, a ridiculously strong teammate, and the absence of a few mountain goats.

 

[thehog]

Boardman has won Rainbow Jersey's on the Track and Road (and worn Yellow).

But he never finished a GT let alone win one or even get Top 10, Top 20?

Nice skew.

 

[Mellow Velo]

From the OP:



Does that belong in the road racing section?

It's the way to make a legitimate road racing illegitimate and avoid a warning for going off topic in the process.

Also from the OP:

In my mind Wiggins progression from track to GT winner is nothing short of extraordinary.

In which case it's another Wiggins Sky thread and also illegitimate as such.

Needs to be merged.

Now, I see we also have a rider named "Bombridge". Also a no-no.

 

[thehog]

Could the rise of riders from track be more related to opportunity and funding?
Australia and to a similar extent Britain have stronger track programs and opportunity for medals at the big O every 4 years. In these countries there are only 4 road medals and what 20 or more on the track? For cycling to get funding they need medals and track is the game so everybody with cycling talent gets on a track bike. Their track exploits get them pro contracts and we find out what other talents they have.
In Europe Road racing has a lot of support and talent ID. Guys are not encouraged to go track but very early they see who can climb and they don't ride the track.
Very sinister indeed.

Yes good points. But if you had 5-6 British guys over the last 20 years all making Top 10/20 in GT's from the track then yes. But not so.

Robert Miller didn't come from the track and he good (excellent) climber. David Miller not track and he is an OK TT'er - good when doping. Malcolm Elliot was a solid road rider but not from the track. Colin Sturgess was an excellent track rider and made a fairly good transition into road but was never going to win GT.

 

[Joachim]

Might that be because there was no track programme 20 years ago...

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

But he never finished a GT let alone win one or even get Top 10, Top 20?

Nice skew.

Board an finished 39th in 1996 around 90 mins down.

If you take out the confirmed dopers he was maybe top 20.

 

[thehog]

Might that be because there was no track programme 20 years ago...

Of course there was. Not the same style as today but there was a track program and team. Remember it well.

 

[thehog]

Board an finished 39th in 1996 around 90 mins down.

If you take out the confirmed dopers he was maybe top 20.

Thanks. Didn't know that. But yes ripped apart by dopers. He was a prologue specialist aiming to win and hold yellow for as long as possible. Which is in line with his track pedigree. He was never there to climb.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Yes good points. But if you had 5-6 British guys over the last 20 years all making Top 10/20 in GT's from the track then yes. But not so.

Robert Miller didn't come from the track and he good (excellent) climber. David Miller not track and he is an OK TT'er - good when doping. Malcolm Elliot was a solid road rider but not from the track. Colin Sturgess was an excellent track rider and made a fairly good transition into road but was never going to win GT.

Malcolm Ellilot did ride the track .

 

[Joachim]

Of course there was. Not the same style as today but there was a track program and team. Remember it well.

Not the same style???? It was irrelevant.

Totally. Just like pretty much every aspect of cycling in Britain. Millar, Yates, Elliot and the like were renegades.

Even outside Britain, British cycling was farcical. Remember the ANC team? The McCartney team that folded before it began? Even Raleigh-banana was a ****-up, and I say that as a friend of the man who set the deal up. (and no, Im not talking about Sherwen)

I wonder if you remember that in 1996, one year before lottery funding, and two years before the new programme took shape, British Cycling (BCF) was in a state of near collapse, with Tony Doyle ousted as President.

 

[thehog]

Malcolm Ellilot did ride the track .

I know he did. But he was a road rider who did Madison / 6-day events to pay the rent. He's not from the track to become a road rider per the OP.

 

[thehog]

It was irrelevant.

Totally. Just like pretty much every aspect of cycling in Britain. Millar, Yates, Elliot and the like were renegades.

Even outside Britain, British cycling was farcical. Remember the ANC team? The McCartney team that folded before it began? Even Raleigh-banana was a ****-up, and I say that as a friend of the man who set the deal up.

I wonder if you remember that in 1996, one year before lottery funding, and two years before the new programme took shape, British Cycling (BCF) was in a state of near collapse, with Tony Doyle ousted as President.

Doesn't matter and off-topic.

The thread is about the transformation from track specialist to road GT winner. Which there been none since about 1960. For a Tour win none since Anquetil!

You're not doing a very good job of convincing me. Wiggins in 2012 is a statistical phenomenon.

I don't think you'll ever see it again.

And clean?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Thanks. Didn't know that. But yes ripped apart by dopers. He was a prologue specialist aiming to win and hold yellow for as long as possible. Which is in line with his track pedigree. He was never there to climb.

Boardman could climb well for a day but not back it up. He was 2nd in the Dauphine in 1995 (to Mig) and was aiming for a good gc place in the Tour. Shame he crashed in the Prologue!

 

[Joachim]

Don't try and pretend it is irrelevant because it doesn't lend itself to your position.

You are trying to present it as a 'near statistical impossibility', on the grounds that there is no precedent of a track rider gravitating to road and being succesful. Quite apart from the fact you are using words you clearly don't understand, you are totally ignoring the influence of the nascent track programme.

What do you think Wiggins would have done if there had been an equivalent road programme when he was 18?

 

[Captain Sensible]

I know he did. But he was a road rider who did Madison / 6-day events to pay the rent. He's not from the track to become a road rider per the OP.

He was a 4000 m pursuit rider and rode the Olympic Games team pursuit and was the National Hill Climb champion so before he turned professional he was as much track as road .
I never knew he rode 6 day on the track though ? One of his pursuit teammates Tony Doyle went on to make that his main career .

 

[thehog]

Don't try and pretend it is irrelevant because it doesn't lend itself to your position.

You are trying to present it as a 'near statistical impossibility', on the grounds that there is no precedent of a track rider gravitating to road and being succesful. Quite apart from the fact you are using words you clearly don't understand, you are totally ignoring the influence of the nascent track programme.

What do you think Wiggins would have done if there had been an equivalent road programme when he was 18?

I'm not pretending anything. It's fact. You're pretending and hypothesising about Wiggins.

Wiggins was road racing as a junior. He was also from Belguim decent. Not hard for him to do what Phil Andersen, Allan Peiper and many other Pros did before him and live the Belgium road scene to score a contract. Or go ride the esporres in France. (Europe is only 2 hours away!)

Fact of the matter Wiggins was a not a road rider as a junior. Strong and talented, yes but not a GT rider in the making.

He was a track specialist and that was it.

Nice try.

 

[Joachim]

He was also from Belguim decent

British mother, Australian father. Lived in Belgium until he was two.

Perhaps he didn't make the most of the opportunites on offer in Belgium for road-racing as a toddler?