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TT course around Montpellier a disgrace

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Mar 10, 2009
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Chippers said:
Why is this TTT any different?
Depends upon how ones favorite rider/team performed. I suspect that the primary reason many are objecting to the TTT is that ________(insert Evans, Sastre, Menchov, or whomever) lost so much time to the hated Armstrong/Astana.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Snake8 said:
As to Cadel, man he should have found another team four years ago. If Sastre was smart he would have stuck with Barney and wouldnt be considered out of the running.

So, IMO its not the course that made the differences today.

So true! I do think that the TTT should not be used, however, as it can all but eliminate good riders on not-so-strong teams. The strong teams already have a huge advantage. I think the best rider should win, not the 2nd or 3rd best rider who happens to be on the strongest team.
 
May 26, 2009
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Chippers said:
First post here, and probably a slightly contentious one.

In rallying if a driver crashes do they blame the course of the fact the driver was going to quick? It's the same in any motorsport. In Mountain biking (my cycling routes) do they blame a course for being dangerous? No they blame either bad luck or over riding.

Why is this TTT any different? If a corner is tight and you've been told by your DS that people have crashed on X corner should you back off? Probably. Did they back off? Probably not.

The good stay on, the bad fall off. Simple really.

You are comparing a TTT to Rally and Mountain Biking. I am a bit puzzled how that makes for a good reasoning line.. you are actually more or less pointing out why it is different for a TT and why this course is a shame.
 

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Franklin said:
I also saw more crashes than I ever seen before in a TTT and someone gone to a hospital. Surely a coincidence that so many people (pro's who can outsteer any of us) crashed of course, surely a coincidence that more than one reporter crew called the course a disgrace :rolleyes:

Dang all the crashes... it makes it just that much more exciting!!!

We could also reintroduce frame pumps so sprinters can spank each other again, that would also be exciting.

Or how about we let cars parked on the side so we can see how many people go into the hospital... oh wait they tried that already this year.

Sigh! If you actually thought to look at and analyse the crashes you would see that they were caused by simple things: Guys going too fast into a corner (Menchov). Guys being innattentive and clipping wheels (hardly anything to do with the course just bad riding), and guys taking poor lines into corners (B-Box) and their teammates following them. You may also notice that the better prepared teams in terms of TTT riding skills and course awareness did not have those problems. Finally, pro's can be just as innatentative as any club rider and they are not all Popo when it comes to taking good cornering lines believe me! The good teams rode as a unit, the bad teams did not and it was not all to do with the on paper strength of the riders. Liquigas were a case of a modest TTT team riding well as a unit and getting a good result. Lotto rode like a team of individuals with Cadel clearly frustrated and ending up driving too hard with the result of the team having no rhythm on the road. Rabo were just a disaster from the start.
 
May 26, 2009
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benpounder said:
Depends upon how ones favorite rider/team performed. I suspect that the primary reason many are objecting to the TTT is that ________(insert Evans, Sastre, Menchov, or whomever) lost so much time to the hated Armstrong/Astana.

Nope, I love the discipline. I just very much object to unnecesary crashes. Preparation is one thing but so many crashes (one getting hospitalised) is unneccesary, saying differently is demeaning for those riders.

I simply do not have to see blood for my enjoyment.. it's odd that I seem to be in the minority.
 
May 26, 2009
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Bagster said:
Sigh! If you actually thought to look at and analyse the crashes you would see that they were caused by simple things: Guys going too fast into a corner (Menchov). Guys being innattentive and clipping wheels (hardly anything to do with the course just bad riding), and guys taking poor lines into corners (B-Box) and their teammates following them. You may also notice that the better prepared teams in terms of TTT riding skills and course awareness did not have those problems. Finally, pro's can be just as innatentative as any club rider and they are not all Popo when it comes to taking good cornering lines believe me! The good teams rode as a unit, the bad teams did not and it was not all to do with the on paper strength of the riders. Liquigas were a case of a modest TTT team riding well as a unit and getting a good result. Lotto rode like a team of individuals with Cadel clearly frustrated and ending up driving too hard with the result of the team having no rhythm on the road. Rabo were just a disaster from the start.

The B-Box corner had also Skill and Milram pile up with 4 riders. A coincidence and clearly the fault of these hamfisted racers. The guy who was hospitalised clearly did not belong in a GT... pshhh couldn't even stay upright.

Sorry, but just pointing out to the minor scrapes of Menchov and Van Den Broekc while ignoring a hospitalised racer is cherrypicking. It doesn't make a good reasoning though.
 
Jul 7, 2009
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Franklin said:
You are comparing a TTT to Rally and Mountain Biking. I am a bit puzzled how that makes for a good reasoning line.. you are actually more or less pointing out why it is different for a TT and why this course is a shame.

So you're saying if out of 180(ish) people 8 people crashing means the course is a disgrace. Could it be that these riders aren't as good?
 

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auscyclefan94 said:
The tt course the route organisers made these riders go out on is a bloody disgrace. Surely the organisers have duty of care to not make the course so dangerous. So many riders crashed. I don't think i would ride my bike on that Course.

Lol, Hey Cadel fanboy, I wonder if you would be whinging so much if Cadel and the crap team HE CHOSE to stay with had done better? They rode like a bunch of muppets, Cadel drove them too hard early and got the expected result.

This wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that Cadel is an Aussie and you are an Aussie?? No of course not....and you call Poms whingers? I didnt see Astana, liquigas or Caisse having too many problems with the course? The ones who crashed did so because they did dumb things, like clipping wheels, going too fast into the first corner for Gods sake!, and taking crap lines around corners.
 
May 26, 2009
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Chippers said:
So you're saying if out of 180(ish) people 8 people crashing means the course is a disgrace. Could it be that these riders aren't as good?

I'm sorry, come again? 8 people? There were at least 12 racers crashing at the same corner, of which one is hospitalised.

Saying these twelve are not worthy is laughable. The one hospitalised is a lead out man in sprints and most definitely knows how to handle a bike in hairy conditions.
 

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Franklin said:
The B-Box corner had also Skill and Milram pile up with 4 riders. A coincidence and clearly the fault of these hamfisted racers. The guy who was hospitalised clearly did not belong in a GT... pshhh couldn't even stay upright.

Sorry, but just pointing out to the minor scrapes of Menchov and Van Den Broekc while ignoring a hospitalised racer is cherrypicking. It doesn't make a good reasoning though.

I wasn't pointing out "minor scrapes" of anyone, I was pointing out incidents. I wasn't ignoring a hospitalised rider, but it is irrelevant anyway. Since when does the degree of injury directly relate to the type of incident that caused it. You can break a wrist falling over while standing still or come out relatively unscathed from a 50km/hr crash. And yes they were hamfisted, if you look at the B-Box crash the lead guy took the worst possible line into the corner. You will also note that the four guys at the back took a much better line and had no problems. A number of teams obviously took time to study the course before the race and got around the bend (hardly a corner) fine. If you start blaming a corner for guys crashing you need to take up another, safer sport...like icehockey
 

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Franklin said:
I'm sorry, come again? 8 people? There were at least 12 racers crashing at the same corner, of which one is hospitalised.

Saying these twelve are not worthy is laughable. The one hospitalised is a lead out man in sprints and most definitely knows how to handle a bike in hairy conditions.

You would think Michael Rasmussen would be able to handle a bike too, being a former world MTB champ....didn't stop him from crashing twice on an ITT that everyone else pretty much had no problem with. Just because you can weave a bike through a gap in a sprint doesn't neccesarily mean you can corner well on a TT bike.

Plus nobody is saying anyone is not worthy. It only takes the lead rider to take a bad line and that commits several guys behind him so his error compounds the result. Totally different to a situation where you have twelve seperate riders going down in the same corner in an ITT
 
Mar 16, 2009
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Franklin said:
Dang all the crashes... it makes it just that much more exciting!!!


Franklin said:
I simply do not have to see blood for my enjoyment.. it's odd that I seem to be in the minority.

Sorry Franklin, you are the only one here saying that. Not a single poster has said they like the crashes and that they feel it enhances the sport. Your argument is a red herring.

I'm not sure what your point is really. What kind of course should this TTT have been run on? Flat straight open roads? Should the riders have a check-off on stages? Do you really think we can eliminate crashes in cycling?

I think it probably comes down to the fact that 'your guy' whomever it is lost time...
 
May 26, 2009
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Bagster said:
You would think Michael Rasmussen would be able to handle a bike too, being a former world MTB champ....didn't stop him from crashing twice on an ITT that everyone else pretty much had no problem with. Just because you can weave a bike through a gap in a sprint doesn't neccesarily mean you can corner well on a TT bike.

Michael Rasmussen was an exception that day (and quite frankly he caused his own misfortune that day). This time it wasn't an exception. truly there is a difference between one pile up and three similar ones at the same corner... If we are going to push out percentages, three of twenty teams, thats 15%. That is quite damning...

Plus nobody is saying anyone is not worthy.
Could it be that these riders aren't as good?

Do I truly need to say more? ^^
 
May 26, 2009
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Snake8 said:
Sorry Franklin, you are the only one here saying that. Not a single poster has said they like the crashes and that they feel it enhances the sport. Your argument is a red herring.

I'm not sure what your point is really. What kind of course should this TTT have been run on? Flat straight open roads? Should the riders have a check-off on stages? Do you really think we can eliminate crashes in cycling?

I think it probably comes down to the fact that 'your guy' whomever it is lost time...

I don't know? Maybe any previous TTT course? I remember one mass pile up before and that was Zabriskie being overeager. This was different, is that so hard to see? 15% of the teams go down at the same corner, this means they are at fault? Or does that mean that the course was to tricky to send a TTT through?

And red herring? I can point out post after post where the case was ridiculised and where "it's technical, don't whine" was the standard reply. Sorry, I disagree and quite a few profesional critics also disagreed.

And if you think I'm cheering on my guy? Should I say again that this course caused a hospitalised rider in a corner which caused (I repat it) 12 crashes, 15% of the teams? Quite frankly I don't give a toss who wins as long as it is exciting^^ But I do prefer a respectful course for the racers.
 
Mar 16, 2009
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Franklin said:
Michael Rasmussen was an exception that day (and quite frankly he caused his own misfortune that day). This time it wasn't an exception. truly there is a difference between one pile up and three similar ones at the same corner... If we are going to push out percentages, three of twenty teams, thats 15%. That is quite damning...




Do I truly need to say more? ^^

YES! You are being ridiculous. There are more pile ups and injuries in flat transition stages than there are in any TT or TTT. If you really care about rider safety and percentages shut your trap about today's race and go argue that we should eliminate sprints/flat stages. How about downhills? They are extremely dangerous.

Frankly Franklin, if i can be frank, tell us the truth, your boy lost time today eh? Cadel? Carlos? Or are you a Cav hater and sad to see the Skil guy crash and vindicate Cav that the guy doesnt know how to handle a bike?
 
The team time trial was very fun to watch and the technical course made for an exciting race. That being said it was probably a bit unfair to some of the GC contenders on weaker teams.

I feel particularly badly for Cadel. From his performance in the opening time trial seems like he is in excellent form and may have had a chance at challenging Contador for the overall victory. Now largely due to a weak team Cadel is in a big GC hole that is going to be very difficult for him to climb out of.
 
May 26, 2009
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Snake8 said:
YES! You are being ridiculous. There are more pile ups and injuries in flat transition stages than there are in any TT or TTT. If you really care about rider safety and percentages shut your trap about today's race and go argue that we should eliminate sprints/flat stages. How about downhills? They are extremely dangerous.

Sure, I'll bite^^

Some flat finishes are ridiculous. Also, some descents are ridiculous. Did you know that the racers themselves tend to agree? Or is Pedro forgotten so easily?

Frankly Franklin, if i can be frank, tell us the truth, your boy lost time today eh? Cadel? Carlos? Or are you a Cav hater and sad to see the Skil guy crash and vindicate Cav that the guy doesnt know how to handle a bike?

Shoo, go play somewhere else. Check my post history and then come back to me and try again to insult me ;) Or maybe better, try to come with real reasoning, it's what I enjoy, it's a mature thing.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Franklin said:
I just very much object to unnecesary crashes. Preparation is one thing but so many crashes (one getting hospitalised) is unneccesary, saying differently is demeaning for those riders.

I simply do not have to see blood for my enjoyment.. it's odd that I seem to be in the minority.
What the hell is an unnecessary crash?

Riders get injured irrespective of any course. Bobby Julich got carted off from a crash in an ITT. Oscar Friere and Kim Kirken crashed out of the ToC. Andrei Kivilev died on a flat stage in Paris-Nice. Menchov and the BBox boys crash today was unnecessary only insofar as they screwed up and overcooked a corner. You want to ban corners?

Must likely, you are in the minority because you are stretching credulity using crashes (and hospitalization) as a criterion in determining whether or not a course should or should not be used.
 

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Franklin said:
Michael Rasmussen was an exception that day (and quite frankly he caused his own misfortune that day). This time it wasn't an exception. truly there is a difference between one pile up and three similar ones at the same corner... If we are going to push out percentages, three of twenty teams, thats 15%. That is quite damning...




Do I truly need to say more? ^^

Probably best not too, no one agrees with you. Three teams taking a bad line through a corner is not a reason to label a course as a disgrace.
 
May 26, 2009
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Bagster said:
Probably best not too, no one agrees with you. Three teams taking a bad line through a corner is not a reason to label a course as a disgrace.

Me, the Italian comentators and the Dutch commentators ;)
 
May 26, 2009
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Snake8 said:
YES! You are being ridiculous. Frankly Franklin, if i can be frank, tell us the truth, your boy lost time today eh? Cadel? Carlos? Or are you a Cav hater and sad to see the Skil guy crash and vindicate Cav that the guy doesnt know how to handle a bike?

Dude, get a grip. There were an unusual amount of crashes and more respected commentators than you felt strongly enough to make the point that it was a very tough course for a TTT. The OP may have taken it a bit personally but that doesn't change the underlying fact.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Franklin said:
...and quite frankly he caused his own misfortune that day...
And today, ASO forced all the crashing riders to take the line they took at the speed they took it... The riders themselves, of course, are blameless.

Methinks you've an unstated agenda, like maybe it was your brother who fell.
 
May 26, 2009
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benpounder said:
What the hell is an unnecessary crash?

Riders get injured irrespective of any course. Bobby Julich got carted off from a crash in an ITT. Oscar Friere and Kim Kirken crashed out of the ToC. Andrei Kivilev died on a flat stage in Paris-Nice. Menchov and the BBox boys crash today was unnecessary only insofar as they screwed up and overcooked a corner. You want to ban corners?

You are ridiculising it. Saying this course is unsafe is not the same as saying corners need to be banned. Also Menchov's crash is not the corner where twelve rider had identical crashes.

The reason why I call this unnecesary (and thus the hospitalisation unneccesary) is that this never happened before in a TTT. follow my reasoning.

1. This can't be a coincidence as we saw three similar crashes.
2. This corner had been pointed out beforehand by teams and critics. The course builder, the one responsible for the course had to know this or he would be doing a bad job?
3. There never before has been a TTT where we saw three big identical crashes.

These two hard to deny facts make it unnecesary. Such a corner hasn't been in previous TTT's.

Must likely, you are in the minority because you are stretching credulity using crashes (and hospitalization) as a criterion in determining whether or not a course should or should not be used.

Actually, do you have better criterions? Am I stretching credulity by pointing out there were three identical mass pile ups at thesame corner? There I was thinking those were cold hard facts.
 
May 26, 2009
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benpounder said:
Methinks you've an unstated agenda, like maybe it was your brother who fell.
LMAO. Sorry that I care about the racers. Your snide remark has cornered me :rolleyes:

All this time I lurked here posting about all kind of stuff untill I could pounce! now I can bring through a critical change in Pro racing courses! You saw through me!!!
 
Apr 29, 2009
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Cadel will not win the Tour unless he finds a new team and even if he does move to a strong team, he still has no chance.
I am not a fan of the TTT, but the course was fine and it was a very exciting stage to watch.
But in saying that if Lance had crashed then the sh#t would have really hit the fan. Lance and all lance lovers would have blown up deluxe.