Tyler's Book

[Cycle Chic]

Can someone give me the radio 5 link to an interview with ????? cant remember - NOT THE TIM FRANKS , Hardtalk INTERVIEW. I think I saw another link from The Hitch....many thanks.

 

[Benotti69]

Can someone give me the radio 5 link to an interview with ????? cant remember - NOT THE TIM FRANKS , Hardtalk INTERVIEW. I think I saw another link from The Hitch....many thanks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/search/iplayer/?q=tyler hamilton

 

[Cycle Chic]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/search/iplayer/?q=tyler hamilton

thanks....I thought there was another UK interview...not the Hardtalk one - which was rubbish.

Radio 5 I think ?????

 

[jilbiker]

From Tyler's book, if there were true surprise tests especially out of competition tests, the riders will be caught. The problem is also the fact that the testers are locals, The tester may be an AC fan or a Lance fan or a Bolt fan. Its really a tough puzzle to solve.

 

[ManInFull]

From Tyler's book, if there were true surprise tests especially out of competition tests, the riders will be caught. The problem is also the fact that the testers are locals, The tester may be an AC fan or a Lance fan or a Bolt fan. Its really a tough puzzle to solve.

And, the dopers with great doctors have their doping programs down to a science. Tyler described how he and others took advantage of the rule that doesn't allow the testers to show up between 10 PM and 6/7 AM. He stated that he would micro-dose at 10:01 PM because he knew that the evidence would be out of his system by morning.

 

[airstream]

The Fuentes' adventures in the 2004 Tour sound pretty plausible. Apparently, a hurriedly invented "Siberia" worked defficiently and only by the 2006 Giro Ufe brought the technology to perfection.

 

[Raul Ramaya]

The Fuentes' adventures in the 2004 Tour sound pretty plausible. Apparently, a hurriedly invented "Siberia" worked defficiently and only by the 2006 Giro Ufe brought the technology to perfection.

Interestingly, however, Tyler points to a darker reason. Without elaborating much he says (almost as a one off) that he wonders if he (and Ulrich and Mayo) had been sabotaged. Not clear whether he is pointing finger at Lance or Fuentes.

 

[DirtyWorks]

But I cannot sympathize with Tyler here. And certainly... I cannot sympathize with Lance in any way. Their selfishness continues and it is damaging not only to himself but also to sports, ... no sympathy here. Not now.

I tightened that up quite a bit. No forgiveness for any of them. (JV, Landis, Wonderboy) Because that's what keeps the toxic environment alive.

The consequences of letting this all go and just moving on without examination is it will be repeated. Specific to cycling it becomes a "Do your time in the cesspool and if you can fashion a story, then write the tell-all book after the SOL kicks in." Making money twice for cheating. That's an honorable thing now?

We can be pretty sure at this point in 2012 that the toxic environment is still mostly there too. So, while there is some empathy for these cheaters, what about the clean guys who left to normal lives? Where's their book deal?

Now, to confuse everyone, I have a bunch of respect for how they handled recent events. But, I'd never personally trust them with anything. Our lives would never intersect, so it's an imagined event.

 

[thehog]

Interestingly, however, Tyler points to a darker reason. Without elaborating much he says (almost as a one off) that he wonders if he (and Ulrich and Mayo) had been sabotaged. Not clear whether he is pointing finger at Lance or Fuentes.

Ullrich after a buster 2003 Tour claimed he was sick and on antibiotics at the 2004 Tour. He did get better as the Tour went on. Kloden was with Freiburg so was on good form. Ullrich still rode well considering he was clean for the first half or had a dead cell bag like Hamilton.

But yes no doubt Lance had told the UCI on Ullrich also. He wasn't got to risk either him or him or Mayo outshining him.

 

[airstream]

Rather it looks like Lance talked to Fuentes that he organized bad bags for his clients.

 

[anesting]

But yes no doubt Lance had told the UCI on Ullrich also. He wasn't got to risk either him or him or Mayo outshining him.

One of the puzzles about the Hamilton book is Armstrong's relationship with Hein Vebruggen. Is it special? How did Armstrong develop the relationship? The book implies that Armstrong had a special relationship with Hein Verbruggen, which he used to control his opponents, calling in some heat on them when necessary, as thehog points out above.

We first meet Vebruggen in a footnote on p. 42 when the hematocrit ceiling of 50 percent is explained. This is in January 1997 in Hamilton's story, when Pedro Celaya explains the importance of hematocrit as a metric of performance capacity to the young Tyler. It's the UCI who made the 50 percent rule, and Verbruggen is paraphrased as saying the rule was designed to protect the riders' health. Criticized for "essentially legalizing doping," Verbruggen replies by calling such arguments "bullsh@%t" (42). It's almost a hundred pages later when Verbruggen reenters the story. When Hamilton alleges Armstong tested positive for EPO at the 2001 Tour de Suisse, he says "I remember Lance phoning Hein Verbruggen from the team bus. I can't recall what they talked about, but what struck me was the nonchalant tone of the conversation..." (149). Later Hamilton relates the now widely-discussed anecdote about Armstrong calling the UCI on him after he defeated Armstrong on Mt. Ventoux at the Dauphine in 2004 (211). Armstrong tacitly admits doing so by replying with an angry demand that Hamilton tell Armstrong who told him about the UCI call.

What the book does is present Armstrong's relationship to Vrebruggen as familiar (the "casual tone"), letting the reader make her conclusions. The call on 149 coincides with the disappearance of Armstrong's alleged positive, and his casual attitude toward "getting popped." But did Armstrong have a special relationship to Verbruggen and the UCI? Or do any number of actors in the cycling world have the Verbruggens and McQuaids on speed dial, and speak to them in a "casual tone"?

As an aside, it's interesting to note that The Secret Race has no index, which is the common practice for trade non-fiction, and would not have cost more than $750 to do for a book of this length.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

Does it need to be a special relationship though?
Surely Verbruggen would have taken notice of a World Champion that won some good 1-day races and came back from Cancer to win convincingly in the TdF. Probably would have they met already at official ceremonies and exchanged chit-chat. Besides didn't Landis mentioned that Armstrong told him that Ochowicz -former Armstrong manager at Motorola- was the between guy to call Verbruggen (for the wage dispute Landis was in with his former team)?

All it takes from there is a couple of amiable phone calls (who took the initiative indeed?). I wanted to tell you we had a positive. Most unfortunate. Yes of course a mistake is always possible. It would be a pity to throw a career in jeopardy over this.

Armstrong comes across as a business savvy guy. Would Verbruggen propose between the lines some sort of arrangement, he would understand.
From there, if we suppose this 2001 test been hushed, they are pretty much partners in crime. Can make for tight bounds.

 

[luckyboy]

Jens says he will never read the book...

 

[KayLow]

One of the puzzles about the Hamilton book is Armstrong's relationship with Hein Vebruggen. Is it special? How did Armstrong develop the relationship? The book implies that Armstrong had a special relationship with Hein Verbruggen, which he used to control his opponents, calling in some heat on them when necessary, as thehog points out above.

We first meet Vebruggen in a footnote on p. 42 when the hematocrit ceiling of 50 percent is explained. This is in January 1997 in Hamilton's story, when Pedro Celaya explains the importance of hematocrit as a metric of performance capacity to the young Tyler. It's the UCI who made the 50 percent rule, and Verbruggen is paraphrased as saying the rule was designed to protect the riders' health. Criticized for "essentially legalizing doping," Verbruggen replies by calling such arguments "bullsh@%t" (42). It's almost a hundred pages later when Verbruggen reenters the story. When Hamilton alleges Armstong tested positive for EPO at the 2001 Tour de Suisse, he says "I remember Lance phoning Hein Verbruggen from the team bus. I can't recall what they talked about, but what struck me was the nonchalant tone of the conversation..." (149). Later Hamilton relates the now widely-discussed anecdote about Armstrong calling the UCI on him after he defeated Armstrong on Mt. Ventoux at the Dauphine in 2004 (211). Armstrong tacitly admits doing so by replying with an angry demand that Hamilton tell Armstrong who told him about the UCI call.

What the book does is present Armstrong's relationship to Vrebruggen as familiar (the "casual tone"), letting the reader make her conclusions. The call on 149 coincides with the disappearance of Armstrong's alleged positive, and his casual attitude toward "getting popped." But did Armstrong have a special relationship to Verbruggen and the UCI? Or do any number of actors in the cycling world have the Verbruggens and McQuaids on speed dial, and speak to them in a "casual tone"?

As an aside, it's interesting to note that The Secret Race has no index, which is the common practice for trade non-fiction, and would not have cost more than $750 to do for a book of this length.

Another possible interpretation of the incident is that Armstrong did not orchestrate the whole thing, but was simply plugged into the UCI better than most (or all) riders and heard about it before or soon after it happened. If Hein and Lance were as close as portrayed, I can conceive of someone at the UCI tipping off Lance to Tyler's "appointment in Switzerland."

This raises the question of why the UCI called in Tyler in the first place. If it was not Lance's doing, whose was it and what was the motivation behind it? My thinking as I was reading about it is that Tyler may, in fact, have tested positive for something and that the UCI may have been trying to bury it while still letting him know that the UCI was on to him. Indeed, this incident with Tyler might have been the way the Tour de Suisse incident went down with Lance. Bring the rider in, ask him about "unusual blood values" and see what he says. If he denies it as expected, tell him to "be careful" and send him on his way. I can see the UCI doing this with Lance in 2001 due to the newness of the EPO test and with Tyler in 2004 due to the newness of the transfusion test.

I realize that this conjecture is somewhat pro-Lance, but the only fact that it is inconsistent with is that Lance appeared to know that he tested positive for EPO in 2001, whereas Tyler was never told that he tested positive for anything when he went to the UCI's headquarters. Then again, we don't know exactly how Lance learned that he tested positive for EPO; he may simply have guessed that is what it was based on what he was using at the time and what questions he was asked by the UCI. If this is what happened, it is understandable that outsiders and the lab director would perceive that Lance got away with a positive test due to his influence, whereas insiders would perceive the situation as the UCI avoiding a confrontation over a positive test using somewhat new technology that might harm the sport and the UCI's reputation.

EDIT: Upon further reflection, my theory is a bit confused. The "new" transfusion test was the reticulocyte test that has never been used to bust riders for doping. It is still possible that Tyler flunked an actual doping test and the UCI didn't want to bury him for it. Probably less likely, though.

 

[Benotti69]

Jens says he will never read the book...

Jens isn't kidding anybody.

Jens was powering along at the same time as Hamilton on the same juice.

 

[Houndbike]

Jens was speaking out against the whistleblowers coming back into the sport.
Jens doesn't like whistleblowers.

 

[jilbiker]

Rather it looks like Lance talked to Fuentes that he organized bad bags for his clients.

You know i never considered that. I wonder about the bad bags that Contador must have received in TDF 2010 or Tyler's bad bags for the Olympics and just after. Easy to blame the clumsy forgetful assistant of Fuentes but I sense Tyler was not totally convinced that was the direct cause. The hand of the Don LA cannot be overruled especially as we have seen his actions on anyone that crosses the line that he draws. Other people's success disturbs him, Wow.

Landis would have been the 3rd American to win the TDF, did he perhaps get a bad BB? He said he had never taken testosterone but who knows what was in his BB? who knows what these doctors do in their dark alley. Amazing the risks these riders take for the so called "success". These doctors can mix a whole lot of junk into what will enter your body and there is no regulation or option of lawsuit. Wow

 

[the big ring]

Jens isn't kidding anybody.

Jens was powering along at the same time as Hamilton on the same juice.

I wonder if Jens has read any of Lance's books...

 

[DirtyWorks]

Does it need to be a special relationship though?

For sure! At this point, the UCI has discredited itself many times over the way it has handled Armstrong's situation. How many retired riders can get Pat to switch from, "This USADA thing is up to them." to making up all kinds of stuff and attempting to interfere in the USADA's process?

Whatever secret Hein and Wonderboy share must be immense.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

For sure! At this point, the UCI has discredited itself many times over the way it has handled Armstrong's situation. How many retired riders can get Pat to switch from, "This USADA thing is up to them." to making up all kinds of stuff and attempting to interfere in the USADA's process?

Whatever secret Hein and Wonderboy share must be immense.

To elaborate: does it need to be special before 2001 and the alleged cover-up? (As I responsed to a well written post mentioning a 2001 phone call)

As I said, if they are complicit since 2001 (or 99, the UCI quickly came to the rescue for that corticoïds test and accepted a backdated prescription. Maybe a first innocuous* collaboration), and considering the turn of events in those eleven years (2005 tests, etc...) they both just dig themselves deeper in.

* Maybe just a case of the administration accepting the excuse that the team forgot to file the prescription and letting it slide, more or less innocently (dopers busted left on right on the Post-Festina Renewal Tour was not a desired outcome).

 

[Racelap]

One of the puzzles about the Hamilton book is Armstrong's relationship with Hein Vebruggen. Is it special? How did Armstrong develop the relationship? The book implies that Armstrong had a special relationship with Hein Verbruggen, which he used to control his opponents, calling in some heat on them when necessary, as thehog points out above.

Bruyneel and ONCE.

And Jens Voigt is a tool.

 

[anesting]

If someone wanted to do a really amazing project, you could undertake to map these connections out with some kind of system of overlays. Think of layers of the maps like those for airline routes, where the connections all show up simultaneously. Imagine trying to map out the confessions and events in the main files and confessions that are out there (say at a site like dopeology.org) and laying them out based on race sites, locations of homes, locations of training camps, professional relationships, and so forth. Way beyond my capabilities.

 

[LauraLyn]

For sure! At this point, the UCI has discredited itself many times over the way it has handled Armstrong's situation. How many retired riders can get Pat to switch from, "This USADA thing is up to them." to making up all kinds of stuff and attempting to interfere in the USADA's process?

Whatever secret Hein and Wonderboy share must be immense.

Agree. But my guess is that the secret shared by McQuaid and Verbruggen is far far bigger than Armstrong - going right up to present day cycling.

 

[Tinman]

Agree. But my guess is that the secret shared by McQuaid and Verbruggen is far far bigger than Armstrong - going right up to present day cycling.

Care to speculate? that's what the forum is all about

 

[airstream]

You know i never considered that. I wonder about the bad bags that Contador must have received in TDF 2010 or Tyler's bad bags for the Olympics and just after. Easy to blame the clumsy forgetful assistant of Fuentes but I sense Tyler was not totally convinced that was the direct cause. The hand of the Don LA cannot be overruled especially as we have seen his actions on anyone that crosses the line that he draws. Other people's success disturbs him, Wow.

Landis would have been the 3rd American to win the TDF, did he perhaps get a bad BB? He said he had never taken testosterone but who knows what was in his BB? who knows what these doctors do in their dark alley. Amazing the risks these riders take for the so called "success". These doctors can mix a whole lot of junk into what will enter your body and there is no regulation or option of lawsuit. Wow

That was rather a bit of black humor, considering Lance's global effect on all the things in cycling. Nonetheless, if Armstrong really worked with Ufe, he could organize anything.



I read Mayo fell in deep depression in 2005-06 years and even thought of suicide. Who knows, perhaps, Verbruggen made him the last warning too as he did with Tyler. To me, that was very likely. As we know, Mayo decided not to go back after suspension cos he knew how viciously the system worked (and works). The same assumption may be referred to Heras. I don't believe that any gt rider comes back to ride clean. The guys simply realized uci would never miss the opportunity to catch them again. Positive test is not a compulsory condition for catching.