Tyler's Book

[RichWalk]

I would have to disagree with your assessment. He certainly didn't come across as a hero to me. He does a good job of explaining what caused him to dope and what eventually led him to come clean. However, I still came away feeling that if he hadn't been busted in 2004 and had been able to continue his career until he was ready to retire, he would still be a member of the omerta.

Yep, I saw it as a 'cynical redemption song'

 

[jilbiker]

I would have to disagree with your assessment. He certainly didn't come across as a hero to me. He does a good job of explaining what caused him to dope and what eventually led him to come clean. However, I still came away feeling that if he hadn't been busted in 2004 and had been able to continue his career until he was ready to retire, he would still be a member of the omerta.

Yes, there didn't seem to be a moral/ethical debate going on in Tyler unlike JV or Landis. The internal debate started after he was caught, at least it started, we have tons of examples of riders/athletes who have been caught and see nothing wrong in what they did.

On another point, the book had little on Hincapie, granted he was a quiet guy, who hardly talked or physically moved around (according to the book) but I thought he was Lance's Lieutenant? The team controller of the 7 year reality show. One of Lance's tight buddies. I didn't get that from the book, he seemed like just one of the guys.

Still on Hincapie, when did it go wrong with Lance? I wonder. I remember one of the 2009 TDF stages where Hincapie was in the break and he had a chance to get into yellow jersey, then Astana(with Lance and JB) pushed the peloton, the gap reduced and in the end he missed out on yellow. Hincapie was ticked at the end and said on TV "I find it insulting". There was visible discussion between Lance and JB to push or not to push the peloton. I wondered what Hincapie had done to Lance or was Lance just ticked off at the possibility of Hincapie wearing yellow when he had no more chance to wear it in the 2009 TDF? I think any bond/allegiance ended that day and Hincapie was ready to spill any beans

 

[TylerDurden1]

Nothing could be further from the truth.

It didn't read that way to me. However, to each his own, no criticism there. Some things come down to the person's own perception.

Tyler does not come out as a hero, imo, and therein lies its believability.

from what i read he took sh*t on everyone ... My perspective i guess.

Carmichael - cheerleader
JV - nerd
Landis - bully
Voight - a***le
Armstrong - bully a***le
Bruyneel - lance's b***h
Hincapie - Lazy
...

 

[pmcg76]

from what i read he took sh*t on everyone ... My perspective i guess.

Carmichael - cheerleader
JV - nerd
Landis - bully
Voight - a***le
Armstrong - bully a***le
Bruyneel - lance's b***h
Hincapie - Lazy
...

Read the book in one day, lovely rainy day here.

Some of the descriptions you suggest are correct but not necessarily derogatory. In fact most of them match the widely held views of most of these guys, especially Carmichael, JV, Armstrong, Bruyneel.

I think even JV describes himself as a nerd and I didn't feel as if it was used in a derogatory sense by Hamilton. If anything JV comes out quite well as always being more questioning and wary of doping.

Don't think Hincapie came across as lazy either, just very good at conserving energy which the pros see as an important factor.

The little anecdote with Voigt doesn't potray him in a good light but its hardly character assasination either.

I dont see how you could think that Hamilton potrays himself as being heroic. That is definitely not the impression I got.

The other thing I got from this book is that it seems to finally dispel the notion that Girona was/is some sort of doping haven. Hell even the guys living there travelled to other places to get their fixes. Hamilton always travelled to Valencia(Del Moral, Marti) or Madrid(Fuentes).

 

[summerhill]

Read the book in one day, lovely rainy day here.

Some of the descriptions you suggest are correct but not necessarily derogatory. In fact most of them match the widely held views of most of these guys, especially Carmichael, JV, Armstrong, Bruyneel.

I think even JV describes himself as a nerd and I didn't feel as if it was used in a derogatory sense by Hamilton. If anything JV comes out quite well as always being more questioning and wary of doping.

Don't think Hincapie came across as lazy either, just very good at conserving energy which the pros see as an important factor.

The little anecdote with Voigt doesn't potray him in a good light but its hardly character assasination either.

I dont see how you could think that Hamilton potrays himself as being heroic. That is definitely not the impression I got.

The other thing I got from this book is that it seems to finally dispel the notion that Girona was/is some sort of doping haven. Hell even the guys living there travelled to other places to get their fixes. Hamilton always travelled to Valencia(Del Moral, Marti) or Madrid(Fuentes).

I agree with your character and book review. It wasn't raining here so I read it in two days - and for me it reads very well. It's better than David Millar's book because it fills out more of a picture that Millar was just too oblique in referencing.

William Fotherigham's review http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/sep/14/tyler-hamilton-doping-lance-armstrong?INTCMP=SRCH I found slightly off with its Hamilton putdown and his unconvincing wringing of hands.

 

[Knutsen]

Interesting what is written about Checcini. I thought he was more of a Ferrari light.

 

[TomasC]

Interesting what is written about Checcini. I thought he was more of a Ferrari light.

Yeah that was suprising, although the name is Cecchini. I only have the audio version of the book and they even spell it 'Checheeni' there and 'Checho' in case of his nickname. It is of course 'Checkini' and 'Checko'.

Hopefully Riis recommends him to Kreuziger as well, he may benefit of some of the 20-40s or whatever was it

 

[GJB123]

Indeed interesting and it fits with what Thomas Dekker said about him. He also mentioned in the documentary he saw Cecchini as a friend almost a father figure, nice uncle type of guy who never ever provided him with PEDS's. On the other hand if you tell someone that one of the three important stets towards success will be to alter your blood profile, is hardly steering the away from EPO and blood transfusions. However he does seem to think (pretty much like Riis) that they are grown-ups and are equipped well enough to make their own reasoned decisions. No surprise therefore that Riis also liked working with him when he was still riding.

Regards
GJ

 

[TylerDurden1]

Indeed interesting and it fits with what Thomas Dekker said about him. He also mentioned in the documentary he saw Cecchini as a friend almost a father figure, nice uncle type of guy who never ever provided him with PEDS's. On the other hand if you tell someone that one of the three important stets towards success will be to alter your blood profile, is hardly steering the away from EPO and blood transfusions. However he does seem to think (pretty much like Riis) that they are grown-ups and are equipped well enough to make their own reasoned decisions. No surprise therefore that Riis also liked working with him when he was still riding.

Regards
GJ

I respect Cecchini a lot more after reading what Tyler said. Smart man, unlike Fuentes who gives everyone PEDs like its candy ...

 

[B_Ugli]

I am about half way through the book up to about the point that he is getting fed up at CSC.

What strikes me is the way that Hamilton drops little clues and insights which fast forward the reader straight to things which still go on today.

Notables are:

Riders preparing in Tenerife
Transfusions on rest days
Eating steak after giving blood
Eratic high's/lows in performance (particularly after rest days)
Performances not tailing off in the 2nd and 3rd weeks of Tours

 

[thehog]

I am about half way through the book up to about the point that he is getting fed up at CSC.

What strikes me is the way that Hamilton drops little clues and insights which fast forward the reader straight to things which still go on today.

Notables are:

Riders preparing in Tenerife
Transfusions on rest days
Eating steak after giving blood
Eratic high's/lows in performance (particularly after rest days)
Performances not tailing off in the 2nd and 3rd weeks of Tours

Obsessesive weight loss with no loss of or increased power output.

 

[Mr.38%]

Yeah that was suprising, although the name is Cecchini. I only have the audio version of the book and they even spell it 'Checheeni' there and 'Checho' in case of his nickname. It is of course 'Checkini' and 'Checko'.

Hopefully Riis recommends him to Kreuziger as well, he may benefit of some of the 20-40s or whatever was it

Cecchini proclaimed 40/20 since about middle of the 90ies. A friend and then amateur, later GSII racer worked at SRM (Jülich is just 40 km from my place) and had occasionally been in contact with him whenever Schoberer wasn't there or if Uli involved him. Why has nobody talked about Schoberer in the Clinic context anyway?

Obsessesive weight loss with no loss of or increased power output.

I don't see the weight-loss part as proof for doping. It's an Italian thing that started with Conconi and it's just logical if you begin to really understand power/weight. Obviously both goes perfectly together...

 

[The Gnome]

I too am about halfway thru...Armstrong is just starting to turn on Hamilton as he is getting some better results for himself...I am sure it has been mentioned, but the scene where Armstrong chases a driver down and viciously beats the guy to the ground and then casually rides away shows quite abit of his character...the man has some strong elements of the pathological in him....couple that with the fact that when Vandevelde gets a better time in some random training ride and management feels the need to lie to all (including lance) and say Armstrong came in first as they fear his reactions...paints a portrait of a very weak, insecure, volatile guy...really, a pretty sad figure.

Using Peds seems about as basic to these guys as using powertaps...

 

[B_Ugli]

One thing I noted which surprised me was Hamilton claiming Gan got rid of PED's the same as other teams after the Festina scandal when he says USPS dumped $25,000 worth of PEDS down the toilet.

I had always assumed (probably wrongly) that Gan/Z/Agricole was one of the cleaner teams particularly in view of their stance with JV's wasp sting, Lemond and Boardman.

What these guys need is drug rehab not a ban!

 

[The Gnome]

The year after Hamilton starts using he starts getting better results of course...his salary triples from 150 grand to 450...there is your answer right there as to why guys are using...a few years before this Hamilton was self employed and hauling trash for folks with some old pickup...quite a motivator really...

the fact that the average speed of the tour jumps from 37 to over 42 kph when epo comes in says everything...anyone who has done even the most basic training knows that sorta jump is just ridiculous...

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

The year after Hamilton starts using he starts getting better results of course...his salary triples from 150 grand to 450...there is your answer right there as to why guys are using...a few years before this Hamilton was self employed and hauling trash for folks with some old pickup...quite a motivator really...

the fact that the average speed of the tour jumps from 37 to over 42 kph when epo comes in says everything...anyone who has done even the most basic training knows that sorta jump is just ridiculous...

Historical Tour average speeds are actually quite confusing...

Through the 70s up to 1987, the average speed was in the range 35-37kmh, except for 1981 when the Badger averaged 39.

In 1988 to 1990, the average speed was in the high 38s, not so very much different from the high 39s and low 40s observed during the acknowledged EPO era of 1991 onwards.

I wonder if this suggests EPO was hitting the peloton in the late 80s rather than the early 90s as is widely assumed.

The obvious caveat is that courses vary from year to year, but the jump in average speed in the late 80s and similarity of this period to the 90s is quite striking. Or were the 1988-90 courses like the 1981 version?

 

[thehog]

I don't see the weight-loss part as proof for doping. It's an Italian thing that started with Conconi and it's just logical if you begin to really understand power/weight. Obviously both goes perfectly together...

Weight loss alone is nothing new. Weight loss with increased power is very new. Extreme weight loss with extreme power increase can only be derived from one source. Drugs.

 

[Mr.38%]

No, the extreme weight loss part has nothing to do with drugs (at least not nessecarily). Just the power part.

Nobody is talking about T3/4 btw, why? It helps with EPO as well. Marginal gains.

 

[sampras38]

Historical Tour average speeds are actually quite confusing...

Through the 70s up to 1987, the average speed was in the range 35-37kmh, except for 1981 when the Badger averaged 39.

In 1988 to 1990, the average speed was in the high 38s, not so very much different from the high 39s and low 40s observed during the acknowledged EPO era of 1991 onwards.

I wonder if this suggests EPO was hitting the peloton in the late 80s rather than the early 90s as is widely assumed.

The obvious caveat is that courses vary from year to year, but the jump in average speed in the late 80s and similarity of this period to the 90s is quite striking. Or were the 1988-90 courses like the 1981 version?

I'm sure I'd read somewhere that the earliest EPO failure was 89.

 

[Orinda8]

Domestic violence

I finished the book last week, read it in two days since it was so fascinating. My impression is that Tyler comes across similar to a victim of domestic violence, he does not want Lance arrested because "everyone" was doing it,he seems to always hope that Lance will make up with him and welcome him back to his inner circle with open arms. One puzzle in the book is why all of the wives have remained silent about the doping even after divorces, they do not have to worry about teams and cycling careers. Sheryl Crowe is in a perfect position to publicly tell what she saw but she remains silent (still hoping Lance will come back to her?).

 

[fmk_RoI]

Historical Tour average speeds are actually quite confusing...

Through the 70s up to 1987, the average speed was in the range 35-37kmh, except for 1981 when the Badger averaged 39.

In 1988 to 1990, the average speed was in the high 38s, not so very much different from the high 39s and low 40s observed during the acknowledged EPO era of 1991 onwards.

I wonder if this suggests EPO was hitting the peloton in the late 80s rather than the early 90s as is widely assumed.

The obvious caveat is that courses vary from year to year, but the jump in average speed in the late 80s and similarity of this period to the 90s is quite striking. Or were the 1988-90 courses like the 1981 version?

The correlation between avg speed and EPO not as clear as ppl think. Late 80s is hit by so many things: the UCI taming the Tour (cutting days off it); the sudden influx of cash; the changes in technology; the improvements in training; and, yes, of course, better drugs.

There's an interesting study of GT speeds that you should look out for. Don't have link to hand, others should know it. Some of the math is dodgy but there's good points made that are worth considering.

 

[fmk_RoI]

One thing I noted which surprised me was Hamilton claiming Gan got rid of PED's the same as other teams after the Festina scandal when he says USPS dumped $25,000 worth of PEDS down the toilet.

I had always assumed (probably wrongly) that Gan/Z/Agricole was one of the cleaner teams particularly in view of their stance with JV's wasp sting, Lemond and Boardman.

What these guys need is drug rehab not a ban!

Jorg Jaksche made same claim and everyone dismissed him, cause he said it about Jens. Maybe Cecco has a thing against GAN and brainwashed his clients?

 

[zigmeister]

The correlation between avg speed and EPO not as clear as ppl think. Late 80s is hit by so many things: the UCI taming the Tour (cutting days off it); the sudden influx of cash; the changes in technology; the improvements in training; and, yes, of course, better drugs.

There's an interesting study of GT speeds that you should look out for. Don't have link to hand, others should know it. Some of the math is dodgy but there's good points made that are worth considering.

I don't think technology is going to change much on a climb, unless the bike weights, and inertia of wheels is proven otherwise. Chains, chainrings, cranks etc...are still basically the same...bearings etc. Biggest changes have been to carbon fiber frames, wheels with some less rotational mass at the rim possibly. But that can only be proven with math if we have the exact wheels to perform functions on. Maybe you could contribute .5% of an increase on a climb to reduced friction somehow using better bearings, lubricant etc..wheels that aren't heavy weighted at the rim and such?? Just a guess. Bike weight is 14.99lbs...not sure what the average weight of a bike was back 12 years ago personally?

It is just speculation, but reasonable to suggest I agree on that part that technology could be beneficial. TT bikes, no doubt. But when we are often talking about great performance, particularly climbing, the other factors like environmental, I think would play an even larger role from day to day.

 

[Microchip]

...One puzzle in the book is why all of the wives have remained silent about the doping even after divorces, they do not have to worry about teams and cycling careers. Sheryl Crowe is in a perfect position to publicly tell what she saw but she remains silent (still hoping Lance will come back to her?).

I recall one of the footnotes commenting that she was a "star witness". They're talking, but just not to the public.

 

[VO2 Max]

I recall one of the footnotes commenting that she was a "star witness". They're talking, but just not to the public.

Yes. On p269, exactly where my bookmark got put at the end of my lunch break today!