Valverde at the Vuelta

[maxmartin]

Really? You think that Valverde who never admitted (as far as I know) to being involved in Operación Puerto had such a 'good conscience' to go clean but reconsidered off the back of one race.

why not? after two years ban and the rumor is flying around peloton is riding very clean nowadays and Giro 2012 seemed confirmed that. Maybe after all, he thought there would be no need or at least heavy need for doping. But the performance of the whole SKY team gave AV and quite a few other proridersl a hard reality check. LOL It is time to go back to the old route, otherwise all the prize and glory will be stolen by SKY under the mask of innovative swimming training methods. LOL

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

why not? after two years ban and the rumor is flying around peloton is riding very clean nowadays and Giro 2012 seemed confirmed that. Maybe after all, he thought there would be no need or at least heavy need for doping. But the performance of the whole SKY team gave AV and quite a few other proridersl a hard reality check. LOL It is time to go back to the old route, otherwise all the prize and glory will be stolen by SKY under the mask of innovative swimming training methods. LOL

And what makes you think he was not doping at the Tour? And also what proof is there that the Giro was really that clean?

 

[sartoris]

I want to explain why this is stupid jingoism. The only large country in the EU that has run budget surpluses in the last 10 years is Spain. Until the recent bank bailout on a percentage of GDP basis, Spain's public debt was less than Germany's. The story of the current economic situation is not profligacy and generosity. The German dominated EU has forced the people of Spain to assume the burden of an enormous amount of very private debt, much of it generated in a real estate bubble that was stimulated in great part by the change of currency to the euro, and the subsequent influx of capital from Northern Europe. The irresponsible parties in this story include the German banks who made loans to parties that could not cover those loans, and the politicians that have refused to treat an economic union as a unified financial structure. The yolking together of disparate economies under a common currency created a situation in which the poorer member states could not respond as they should, since they are effectively using a foreign currency.

Good explanation. Gracias Paco. But I think its just a waste of time to get into an exchange with individuals with an IQ below 70. You run the risk of making him believe he's kind of normal.

 

[Bavarianrider]

The Vuelta is in Spain.
Really no more explanation needed.

 

[silverrocket]

Good explanation. Gracias Paco. But I think its just a waste of time to get into an exchange with individuals with an IQ below 70. You run the risk of making him believe he's kind of normal.

Some would argue that it's also a waste of time to try to have a discussion with someone, like yourself, that repeatedly resorts to childish insults of other posters. Another thread ruined.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I want to explain why this is stupid jingoism. The only large country in the EU that has run budget surpluses in the last 10 years is Spain. Until the recent bank bailout on a percentage of GDP basis, Spain's public debt was less than Germany's. The story of the current economic situation is not profligacy and generosity. The German dominated EU has forced the people of Spain to assume the burden of an enormous amount of very private debt, much of it generated in a real estate bubble that was stimulated in great part by the change of currency to the euro, and the subsequent influx of capital from Northern Europe. The irresponsible parties in this story include the German banks who made loans to parties that could not cover those loans, and the politicians that have refused to treat an economic union as a unified financial structure. The yolking together of disparate economies under a common currency created a situation in which the poorer member states could not respond as they should, since they are effectively using a foreign currency.

You might want to include the Spanish banks that took on most of these mortgages and the Spanish people that applied from them. Alas, this situation was replicated across Europe hence the situation we are in now so certainly not just Spain (See Ireland). But to try and absolve the Spanish is ingenuous at best.

 

[AcademyCC]

SARTORIS

It was poster known as sniper that provided these links in a previous thread.

Only in Spain:

Terrados in 1998 jailed for gearing up ONCE:
http://elpais.com/diario/1998/09/09/...14_850215.html

Terrados in 2011 head of the Spanish Olympic Committee.
http://67.227.137.43/noticias/sevill...ntachable.html

Just to add my own bit. On July 27th 1998 During the Festina Affair -

The President of the International Olympic Committee Juan Antonio Samaranch called for performance enhancing drugs to be legalised. His call was supported by two cycling teams, Banesto and Team ONCE.

This guy was then awarded two titles upon retirement by the king of Spain -1st Marquis of Samaranch and Grandee of Spain.

Don't get me wrong I love Spain, my mother now lives there but to say it's doping problem is not ingrained in it's sporting culture is slightly naive.

Your question was - Can you elaborate about how the problem of doping is institucionalized in Spain?

That's just a couple of examples, you could literally write a book.

 

[sniper]

SARTORIS

It was poster known as sniper that provided these links in a previous thread.

Only in Spain:

Terrados in 1998 jailed for gearing up ONCE:
http://elpais.com/diario/1998/09/09/...14_850215.html

Terrados in 2011 head of the Spanish Olympic Committee.
http://67.227.137.43/noticias/sevill...ntachable.html

Just to add my own bit. On July 27th 1998 During the Festina Affair -

The President of the International Olympic Committee Juan Antonio Samaranch called for performance enhancing drugs to be legalised. His call was supported by two cycling teams, Banesto and Team ONCE.

This guy was then awarded two titles upon retirement by the king of Spain -1st Marquis of Samaranch and Grandee of Spain.

Don't get me wrong I love Spain, my mother now lives there but to say it's doping problem is not ingrained in it's sporting culture is slightly naive.

Your question was - Can you elaborate about how the problem of doping is institucionalized in Spain?

That's just a couple of examples, you could literally write a book.

indeed, a very relevant addition relating to Samaranch.

to be sure, in that thread that you cite from, we corrected the bit about Terrados: he never was the head of the Spanisch OC, but became an honorary member at some point (which is still remarkable for a guy directly implicated in a major doping scandal and accused of administering doping by his own riders). He is also head of some fancy Asturian medical institute that collaborates intensively with the Spanish Olympic Commitee.
It reminded me of Fuentes, who, even after the Puerto scandal, was offered one interesting job after the other at different Spanish sports institutes. It was as if his reputation as a doping doctor increased his market value in Spain.
Cf. also Marta "bloodbag" Gonzalez, involved in the Galgo scandal (her bloodbags were confiscated but she was mysteriously never found guilty), working as a vice president of the Spanish Athletics Federation (not sure if she still does). Not to mention the institutional support Contador received when he got caught.

Everything points towards institutionalized doping in Spain.

 

[JPM London]

Those were big enough names for me (minus Sinkewitz), but I thought of another rider that has been caught doping on multiple occasions:

Lance Armstrong.

That's pretty big name in cycling, right?

I think this example seals the discussion on "big riders caught twice".

Officially Lance has never tested positive. Unofficially apparently several times. We also know that "not tested positive" and "clean" are two concepts that don't really belong in the same sentence.

What we know is that if you're big enough, you'll have a hard time getting caught.

In other words - there'll be fewer big names with several positives because a) if you're caught twice you're likely to be out of the sport for good, which means your career ends and you'll never become bigger and b) if you are already big - you won't be caught...

Being big and not having more than one positive does not indicate if you're clean or not...

 

[Paco_P]

You might want to include the Spanish banks that took on most of these mortgages and the Spanish people that applied from them. Alas, this situation was replicated across Europe hence the situation we are in now so certainly not just Spain (See Ireland). But to try and absolve the Spanish is ingenuous at best.

What I am rejecting is the morality tale whereby we are now paying for our irresponsibility. The vast majority of people living in Europe are not in any way directly responsible for what is going on now, even those who were foolish enough to take on mortgages they couldn't pay (I'm not one of those, by the way) because the vast majority of people in Europe have absolutely no direct influence over those that govern them. Those of us who saved, lived within our means and so forth now find our pay cut by 20%, our bank accounts in danger of disappearing, etc. And on top of it we have to listen to *******s telling us it is because we are shifty-eyed dishonest Mediteranneans. Hell, I'm not even Spanish. I'm an immigrant like 1/5 of Europe.

 

[Paco_P]

SARTORIS
Your question was - Can you elaborate about how the problem of doping is institucionalized in Spain?

That's just a couple of examples, you could literally write a book.

A more recent example, that is highly illustrative, is provided by Marta Dominguez, accused doper and presently a member of the Spanish Senate.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

the vast majority of people in Europe have absolutely no direct influence over those that govern them.

Completely agree.

Those of us who saved, lived within our means and so forth now find our pay cut by 20%, our bank accounts in danger of disappearing, etc.

I am in the same situation. I also saved up and now interest rates are so low that inflation is eating into them.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Sounds like the USA. However much I sympathize, please stay on topic.

 

[maxmartin]

And what makes you think he was not doping at the Tour? And also what proof is there that the Giro was really that clean?

Like I said maybe he did but definitely not as a heavy program as he is in Vuelta right now. And one thing I can guarantee you will never see SKY dominant like they did in this year Tour, some other teams will up their game and training too, if it is not already obvious for you to see in this year Vuelta.

 

[jilbiker]

Like I said maybe he did but definitely not as a heavy program as he is in Vuelta right now. And one thing I can guarantee you will never see SKY dominant like they did in this year Tour, some other teams will up their game and training too, if it is not already obvious for you to see in this year Vuelta.

Tyler's book tells it all. The peloton were dazed by Festina intially and then everyone raised the juice bar. And they do that anytime a team/individual comes up with a "not normal" performance. Sky definitely had a program and the peloton has matched it, forget sky, unless they come up with something new. And it shows that they really were a team of average guys. Chris Froome is hyped up, he should have selfishly gone for the Vuelta 2011 and TDF 2012, he will regret it in years to come, because the peloton has upped the game to match their/his antics. And unless you are a natural talent you or come up with something new, forget it.

Oh wait, we are talking about AV, right?.....he may have a new program. The drug testing is A WASTE of time.

 

[maxmartin]

tyler's book tells it all. The peloton were dazed by festina intially and then everyone raised the juice bar. And they do that anytime a team/individual comes up with a "not normal" performance. Sky definitely had a program and the peloton has matched it, forget sky, unless they come up with something new. And it shows that they really were a team of average guys. Chris froome is hyped up, he should have selfishly gone for the vuelta 2011 and tdf 2012, he will regret it in years to come, because the peloton has upped the game to match their/his antics. And unless you are a natural talent you or come up with something new, forget it.

Oh wait, we are talking about av, right?.....he may have a new program. The drug testing is a waste of time.

totally agree

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Seems like Valverde fainted in the hotel lift yesterday at the Worlds - would that be a result of not doping. or doping?

 

[Shardi]

low blood pressure.. perhaps he was heading up to the right room to adjust his lack of blood..

 

[Arnout]

low blood pressure.. perhaps he was heading up to the right room to adjust his lack of blood..

Hehe, that's so cynical

Yet probably true.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Bad blood bag