Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[LaFlorecita]

As i said, Jspear. Exclude the year 2013 from AC/CF h2h and Froome has not given AC much trouble at all. Why do i exclude 2013? because AC was a complete dud that year. 2013, imo, is an exception, all other years of AC's career and AC would have spanked Froome.

2014 Froome vs Contador was a massive battle. Froome gave Alberto more trouble in the 2 races they faced off than Nibali gave Alberto in his entire career.

Nibali has also been spanked by Contador. but i prefer Nibali's 41 % to 58.7% vs Froome's 33% to 67.1%.

I have no idea how the heck those percentages are calculated, but anyway, Froome started performing way later than Nibali anyway. In the last 2 years Froome has been Contador's main rival.

This shouldn't be even be a discussion, but I guess we can always count on cineteq to twist things to provoke a response. How he manages to get away with it over and over again is a mystery to me. Also interesting that he wants to discuss Contador's statements in the Nibali thread.

 

[Jspear]

lol, your case is far from resting, my friend

Froome did not race vs Nibbles at the Giro 2013, Vuelta 2013, or ....and, Froome crashed out TdF 2014 due to too shaky in inclement conditions...

Case is not resting. jury is still out. peace be with you in 2015

I know it's not rested hence the smiley face.
Of course we won't agree, but I'm glad the stats agree with me.
I think we could agree on this: I'm hoping that this year Nibbes will kick Froomes ****...then maybe later next year AC can say Nibbes is his hardest competition.

 

[Jspear]

As i said, Jspear. Exclude the year 2013 from AC/CF h2h and Froome has not given AC much trouble at all. Why do i exclude 2013? because AC was a complete dud that year. 2013, imo, is an exception, all other years of AC's career and AC would have spanked Froome.

Nibali has also been spanked by Contador. but i prefer Nibali's 41 % to 58.7% vs Froome's 33% to 67.1%.

again: people will think of Froom's impressive wins over Contador....but take out 2013 and it is not much at all. That is my point.

You do realize that if we take away 2013 then Nibbes has only beaten AC once where as Froome has beaten AC 3 times...however you look at it AC's claim was true.

 

[Jspear]

2014 Froome vs Contador was a massive battle. Froome gave Alberto more trouble in the 2 races they faced off than Nibali gave Alberto in his entire career.



I have no idea how the heck those percentages are calculated, but anyway, Froome started performing way later than Nibali anyway. In the last 2 years Froome has been Contador's main rival.

This shouldn't be even be a discussion, but I guess we can always count on cineteq to twist things to provoke a response. How he manages to get away with it over and over again is a mystery to me. Also interesting that he wants to discuss Contador's statements in the Nibali thread.

Yes those percentages can be misleading...that's why I went ahead and actually posted the stats...they tell the true story. I do believe those percentages have something to do with how long the rider has been riding.

 

[LaFlorecita]

You do realize that if we take away 2013 then Nibbes has only beaten AC once where as Froome has beaten AC 3 times...however you look at it AC's claim was true.

Why don't we just believe Alberto when he says he fears Froome most for this season... sheesh.. we can discuss it all we like but it will not change Alberto's opinion

 

[Jspear]

Why don't we just believe Alberto when he says he fears Froome most for this season... sheesh.. we can discuss it all we like but it will not change Alberto's opinion

I do believe him...I was just bringing alone some stats to compliment what he said. There are actually some reasonable VN fans that will look at them and get what I'm saying....it has nothing to do with changing AC's opinion.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I do believe him...I was just bringing alone some stats to compliment what he said. There are actually some reasonable VN fans that will look at them and get what I'm saying....it has nothing to do with changing AC's opinion.

I know.. I agree with you anyway.. but I just wanted to say that stats don't even matter, in the end it's Alberto's feeling that matters

 

[pigoonse]

It's simple. If all 4 are on top form Alberto is most worried about Froome. I don't blame him, Froome is the only one who beat him several times, and Alberto still does not know for sure if he can beat a 100% Froome.

i think AC is cautious - he is the modest but confident type. the thing is: Contador can beat Froome any year, any time unless, god forbid, he can only find the form he had in 2013. If Contador can find his 2014 form in 2015, then no one can beat him.

The challenge AC has in Nibali is not like his Froome challenge. Nibali is a better manager on the road of all things GC in a grand tour than Froome. And i am talking about the post Giro 2013 Nibali. Nibali has improved from his contest vs Wiggins and Froome - 2012 TdF. in a Grand Tour, managing the road over 3 weeks, there is no one tougher, than Nibali, except, of course, a determined and fully fit Contador backed up by Tinkoff Saxo.

Winning a GT is more than climbing and TT'ing, isn't it? yet that's what is heard most here - how well one climbs and time trials.

 

[cineteq]

No no we can't use that logic, now can we?

Nibali won the tour cause contador and froome crashed out but we can't use that argument, we're just looking for excuses right?

Quintana crashed out in vuelta, but don't matter right? Froome performed better than quintana in the vuelta, so he's more dangerous isn't he?

Niabli won the Tour, that's fact. Quintana won the Giro (considered 2nd most prestugious GT) is a fact. Froome's form has been erratic through the years, and that's a fact, and he didn't win any GT last year. Anything else's speculation.

Miburo, seriously bro, move on. The sooner you deal with it, the better.

Why don't you try and engage with what AC actually said. Give examples of Nibali giving AC as hard of a time as Froome has....the one I can think of right now was 2013 Tirreno...besides that Froome has always been tougher competition for AC. FACT. Oh and wait..2013 Tirreno won't count in your opinion because it isn't a GT, correct?

My arguments were clear stated as far as last year. Either you agree or disagree, I don't have to engage on Contador's trash talking. For older stuff, see Pingoose's great analysis.

You do realize that if we take away 2013 then Nibbes has only beaten AC once where as Froome has beaten AC 3 times...however you look at it AC's claim was true.

Sometimes some posters think real-life cycling races are video games. Plug and play. Everything stays the same through the years.

 

[LaFlorecita]

i think AC is cautious - he is the modest but confident type. the thing is: Contador can beat Froome any year, any time unless, god forbid, he can only find the form he had in 2013. If Contador can find his 2014 form in 2015, then no one can beat him.

The challenge AC has in Nibali is not like his Froome challenge. Nibali is a better manager on the road of all things GC in a grand tour than Froome. And i am talking about the post Giro 2013 Nibali. Nibali has improved from his contest vs Wiggins and Froome - 2012 TdF. in a Grand Tour, managing the road over 3 weeks, there is no one tougher, than Nibali, except, of course, a determined and fully fit Contador backed up by Tinkoff Saxo.

Winning a GT is more than climbing and TT'ing, isn't it? yet that's what is heard most here - how well one climbs and time trials.

But why can't we just believe Alberto when he says he feels Froome is his biggest rival?

By the way, I am not so sure Contador in top shape easily beats Froome in top shape. We haven't seen them face off in top shape yet.

 

[Jspear]

i think AC is cautious - he is the modest but confident type. the thing is: Contador can beat Froome any year, any time unless, god forbid, he can only find the form he had in 2013. If Contador can find his 2014 form in 2015, then no one can beat him.

The challenge AC has in Nibali is not like his Froome challenge. Nibali is a better manager on the road of all things GC in a grand tour than Froome. And i am talking about the post Giro 2013 Nibali. Nibali has improved from his contest vs Wiggins and Froome - 2012 TdF. in a Grand Tour, managing the road over 3 weeks, there is no one tougher, than Nibali, except, of course, a determined and fully fit Contador backed up by Tinkoff Saxo.

Winning a GT is more than climbing and TT'ing, isn't it? yet that's what is heard most here - how well one climbs and time trials.

Very good post...I agree with you. One thing: yes GT's are about more than just climbing and tt'ing, but those things are predominantly what decide the GC. That said there are other things that contribute to the overall GC.

My arguments were clear stated as far as last year. Either you agree or disagree, I don't have to engage on Contador's trash talking. For older stuff, see Pingoose's great analysis.

Sometimes some posters think real-life cycling races are video games. Plug and play. Everything stays the same through the years.

One of the beauties of the sport is that it is unpredictable! But when we talk about the future we can look at the immediate past (the year 2014) and make some decent predictions...they aren't guaranteed to come to past, but they aren't mindless random guessing either.

 

[Jspear]

But why can't we just believe Alberto when he says he feels Froome is his biggest rival?

By the way, I am not so sure Contador in top shape easily beats Froome in top shape. We haven't seen them face off in top shape yet.

I will speak for myself...hopefully anyone sane can agree. I believe AC...he truly believes Froome is his biggest rival - I think the conversation has now changed to us trying to prove the statement is true using stats ect - Cineteq trying to disprove the statement.

 

[pigoonse]

You do realize that if we take away 2013 then Nibbes has only beaten AC once where as Froome has beaten AC 3 times...however you look at it AC's claim was true.

i have watched the Contador vs Nibali contests with glee since they began. i completely realize what has gone on. But i maintain that Nibbles is far different than pre 2013. Nibs did beat both Froome and Contador at TA 2013. Given that was Contador's lousiest year 2013 and Froome's best

you think i am silly to give Nibali a chance over Froome? we shall see. Nibs would have beat Froome soundly at TdF 2014 if Froome had stayed on his bike

it all adds up to a very exciting contest in 2015 - lucky us!

 

[burning]

Niabli won the Tour, that's fact. Quintana won the Giro (considered 2nd most prestugious GT) is a fact. Froome's form has been erratic through the years, and that's a fact, and he didn't win any GT last year. Anything else's speculation.

Miburo, seriously bro, move on. The sooner you deal with it, the better.

My arguments were clear stated as far as last year. Either you agree or disagree, I don't have to engage on Contador's trash talking. For older stuff, see Pingoose's great analysis.

Sometimes some posters think real-life cycling races are video games. Plug and play. Everything stays the same through the years.

When I read this post, I suddenly remembered your posts about Froome during 2013 Tour.

 

[pigoonse]

Yes those percentages can be misleading...that's why I went ahead and actually posted the stats...they tell the true story. I do believe those percentages have something to do with how long the rider has been riding.

stats are useful but not as much in cycling as in other sports. i only posted the h2h's because you, sort of, asked for it

the overall career percentages do represent how long the riders have been in competition. And i do think Nibali has done rather well vs the best GC rider of this generation. Nibs rode at a high level 2009 - 2011, when AC was in his prime. Nibs gets props for doing as well as he did.

the h2h of AC vs Froome is skewed by Contador's absence for his ban, during which time, Froome was morphing from donkey to racehorse, as they say.

Still, i think overall percentage gives a fair picture of the riders compared: Contador is better than both Nibali and Froome. And Nibali has been a more consistent and better pro rider for longer than Froome...an overall percentage of Nibali's 59% to Froome's 41% as listed in their stats and h2h:

...which is based upon total PCS points, number of professional wins, and yes, career span.

http://www.procyclingstats.com/rider.php?c=7&id=140869&CompareToId=140778

it's a work in progress...the problem with cycling h2h's is that these guys do not ride the same races and go h2h often enough to put any great deal of confidence in their h2h's. in tennis, the players are required to play a certain amount of the same tournaments per year, particularly the four GS's and 1000 point Masters tournaments, so h2h's are relatively more meaningful.

 

[Carols]

The Vuelta in 2010 was a fluke win, that doesn't mean he wasn't gonna improve. He has improved every year but still he never defeated the other great GT winners to win one.

Since it is winter with no racing I just finished watching my 8 hour version of the 2010 Vuelta two days ago.

Nibs won that race fair and square, he was Always a factor throughout the race. Okay Anton crashed out but he only had seconds on him. Nibali could easily have taken him just like he took JRod and Mosquera. I see nothing flukish about that win at all.

Nibali is a much improved rider since then. But IMO both he and Quintana are still a cut below Alberto. That could change as Alberto ages, but not as of 2014. We'll see what 2015 holds for all of them.

 

[Carols]

Why don't we just believe Alberto when he says he fears Froome most for this season... sheesh.. we can discuss it all we like but it will not change Alberto's opinion

Spoken for truth!

Alberto knows who gives him difficulty and that person is Froome. In the first part of his career it was Andy then like Magic that nobody Froome flashed to the top and has given Alberto all he can handle.

The man Knows who he has trouble staying with or dropping.

Now back to Nibali........

 

[Electress]

I wish I believed that Nibs was Froome's equal. I'd love him to be. But, as yet, I haven't seen the evidence to suggest it. He's improved however, and if Froome doesn't retain his 'golden year' standard, (which is by no means impossible - he's shown some fragility this year) Nibs. could well surpass him IMO. We'll see.

I rate Nibali - and his team - a lot higher for road nouse than either Froome or Sky. And I think that may well be important, especially if there is a three - or - four-way rivalry shaping up in the Tour. Unless Froome and Sky are on uber-dominant form and they can do their crush-the-will-of-the-peloton-full-*** racing, their tactical weakness will show. Their trying to contain tactically superior riders with a more 'not a lot to lose now' attitude to the race should lend some fireworks to the TdF. It will be prime ground for a great tactician and opportunistic to exploit other - maybe even better - GC contenders riding defensively.

Cineteq, do you really think that AC's interview was Nibali trash talking ? That seems a very odd conclusion to me. He was asked a question. His answer was pretty straightforward, and consistent with what he's always said. He wasn't disrespectful in the least.

 

[cineteq]

I wish I believed that Nibs was Froome's equal. I'd love him to be. But, as yet, I haven't seen the evidence to suggest it. He's improved however, and if Froome doesn't retain his 'golden year' standard, (which is by no means impossible - he's shown some fragility this year) Nibs. could well surpass him IMO. We'll see.

Cineteq, do you really think that AC's interview was Nibali trash talking ? That seems a very odd conclusion to me. He was asked a question. His answer was pretty straightforward, and consistent with what he's always said. He wasn't disrespectful in the least.

1. Are you talking about last year's Froome? If so, I don't get it. 2. Yes, I think it's Alberto's trash talking without sounding like it. He's done a little bit as of late. He wasn't like that before. TBH, I think it's Bjarne or Tinkoff's influence, I believe they tells him what to say.

For the record, Chris Froome is just a fair weather rider, namely he should normally perform well at races as La Vuelta. He had. Otherwise, like last year TdF he was eliminated by stage 5. Let alone, there won't be multiple ITTs in this year's Tour.

 

[Electress]

1. Are you talking about last year's Froome? If so, I don't get it. 2. Yes, I think it's Alberto's trash talking without sounding like it. He's done a little bit as of late. He wasn't like that before. TBH, I think it's Bjarne or Tinkoff's influence, I believe they tells him what to say.

For the record, Chris Froome is just a fair weather rider, namely he should normally perform well at races as La Vuelta. He had. Otherwise, like last year TdF he was eliminated by stage 5. Let alone, there won't be multiple ITTs in this year's Tour.

No, I'm talking about my general impression over the past few seasons, taking into consideration that people have ups and downs and don't race the same races etc. and therefore it's not a question of raws stats or cherry picking one guys best against one guys worst; at least, not for me.

That said, it may well be that Froome will not regain his top form and Nibali will continue on from his TdF performance…as I say, I'd be delighted if this were the case. I agree totally that Froome has his limitations - bike handling skills and tactics to name but two. But I do think it is underestimating him and being a tad inflammatory to dismiss him as 'just' a fair weather rider, even if he's clearly not a lover of the wet. I'm no fan - indeed, I'm the antithesis of a Froome fan, since I'd cheer for virtually the whole peloton over him. (Strike me down, but I wasn't too unhappy when he crashed in 2014). But I hope I don't devalue or dismiss the opponents of those people I do admire. That includes Nibali.

As for A.C., well, we'll have to agree to differ. I see no evidence of any Nibali or Quintana directed animosity in that article or any I've read, or any interviews I've seen. The most I"ve seen from AC recently is some frustration with Vvde and Purito in the Vuelta, but it was hardly slagging them off, merely saying not working together and burying Froome when they had the chance was a lost opportunity, which it was.

Maybe I"m not reading the same papers as you, or watching the same TV. But IMO, trash-talking is running someone down or patronising them ( ) not failing to name them as your nearest rival, even if said rivals fans would wish him or think him to be.

 

[nhowson]

But why can't we just believe Alberto when he says he feels Froome is his biggest rival?

By the way, I am not so sure Contador in top shape easily beats Froome in top shape. We haven't seen them face off in top shape yet.

The '14 Dauphiné stage 2? Other than that, no I don't think so. Vuelta was interesting psychologically because Froome indicated he was stronger than he was and Contador did the opposite, how strong were they? We'll never know.

I think the thing about Nibali is that he isn't as similar to Contador as Froome is. Contador and Froome will probably be neck and neck in every stage, while Nibali might gain on the cobbles and the stage to Huy (depending on how hilly it is before Huy), but will lose to Froome and Contador on, say, stage 10.

 

[Samson777]

But why can't we just believe Alberto when he says he feels Froome is his biggest rival?

By the way, I am not so sure Contador in top shape easily beats Froome in top shape. We haven't seen them face off in top shape yet.

That is very true and really the main point.

Would love to see Contador in 2009 form against Froome in 2013 form.
That would be epic. And not sure how much impact Nibali would then make, if any..

 

[cineteq]

That said, it may well be that Froome will not regain his top form and Nibali will continue on from his TdF performance…as I say, I'd be delighted if this were the case. I agree totally that Froome has his limitations - bike handling skills and tactics to name but two. But I do think it is underestimating him and being a tad inflammatory to dismiss him as 'just' a fair weather rider, even if he's clearly not a lover of the wet. I'm no fan - indeed, I'm the antithesis of a Froome fan, since I'd cheer for virtually the whole peloton over him. (Strike me down, but I wasn't too unhappy when he crashed in 2014). But I hope I don't devalue or dismiss the opponents of those people I do admire. That includes Nibali.

As for A.C., well, we'll have to agree to differ. I see no evidence of any Nibali or Quintana directed animosity in that article or any I've read, or any interviews [...]

Maybe I"m not reading the same papers as you, or watching the same TV. But IMO, trash-talking is running someone down or patronising them ( ) not failing to name them as your nearest rival, even if said rivals fans would wish him or think him to be.

Let's put it this way: trash talk in a very subtly kind of way. Anyway, we agree to differ, at this point we just need to wait and see...

 

[LaFlorecita]

But IMO, trash-talking is running someone down or patronising them ( ) not failing to name them as your nearest rival, even if said rivals fans would wish him or think him to be.

+1, well said.

 

[Netserk]

The '14 Dauphiné stage 2? Other than that, no I don't think so. Vuelta was interesting psychologically because Froome indicated he was stronger than he was and Contador did the opposite, how strong were they? We'll never know.

I think the thing about Nibali is that he isn't as similar to Contador as Froome is. Contador and Froome will probably be neck and neck in every stage, while Nibali might gain on the cobbles and the stage to Huy (depending on how hilly it is before Huy), but will lose to Froome and Contador on, say, stage 10.

Nibali better on the Mur than Alberto? Hahahaha

Purito, Valverde, Kwia and Alberto will probably be the best on that climb. Nibali will probably do better than Froome, but I don't think there will be much of a gap between the contenders on that stage.