Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Turn it on it's head.
Quintana's in Yellow, Froome's 2nd. Quintana catches bars in spectators camera bag from a long way out and has to stop to untangle, Froome looks back twice and attacks Quintana and gets into Yellow.
How would you feel about this. Same scenario.
The unwritten rule is clear in that if the race is on and in full battle mode, you don't wait, because you can't. In Froomes case the battle wasn't on until Nibali attacked, therefore the unwritten rule was stretched to favour Nibali. Looks like he would have won the stage anyway, but this sin;t the point. It was a concious decision on Nibali's part to shoot when he knew the oppositions gun had jammed before the battle had started. The team car would have eventually told Nibali what had happened and he still continued. At least Ullrich eventually waited for Armstrong when the team car told him to lol!

The race was on from the second Contador attacked

You clearly didn't understand the race situation at that moment in time. It's not the race in general that is the actual battle, but the attacker and the attacked from that individual groups own race within the race. You could argue Rolland should have waited for Froome using your logic. It's not like motorsport where you're blocked from taking advantage, you have to decide what your own sporting moral compass tells you and Nibali clearly broke the unwritten rule and decided to gain from it.
Breaking it is fine however, he will simply pay for it in another moment in the race or another race entirely - this is the traditional way it will be resolved - on the road!

 

[goggalor]

Re:

“Lots of things have happened to me too, but that's cycling. When Contador crashed on the descent (to Pra-Loup) we didn't know until three or four kilometres after. It happens a lot of times in races. I can remember when I crashed at the 2010 Giro d'Italia, at Montalcino. There was the incident when Andy Schleck was attacked by Contador at the Tour the other year. There are no rules….”

More fans (those with and those without typewriters) need to get this into their heads. The "Unwritten Rules of the Peloton" is a myth.

 

[Matt92]

Re: Re:

Turn it on it's head.
Quintana's in Yellow, Froome's 2nd. Quintana catches bars in spectators camera bag from a long way out and has to stop to untangle, Froome looks back twice and attacks Quintana and gets into Yellow.
How would you feel about this. Same scenario.
The unwritten rule is clear in that if the race is on and in full battle mode, you don't wait, because you can't. In Froomes case the battle wasn't on until Nibali attacked, therefore the unwritten rule was stretched to favour Nibali. Looks like he would have won the stage anyway, but this sin;t the point. It was a concious decision on Nibali's part to shoot when he knew the oppositions gun had jammed before the battle had started. The team car would have eventually told Nibali what had happened and he still continued. At least Ullrich eventually waited for Armstrong when the team car told him to lol!

The race was on from the second Contador attacked

You clearly didn't understand the race situation at that moment in time. It's not the race in general that is the actual battle, but the attacker and the attacked from that individual groups own race within the race. You could argue Rolland should have waited for Froome. It's not like motorsport where you're blocked from taking advantage, you have to decide what your own sporting moral compass tells you and Nibali clearly broke the unwritten rule and decided to gain from it.
Breaking it is fine however, he will simply pay for it in another moment in the race or another race entirely - this is the traditional way it will be resolved - on the road!

Well, Nibali already lost the pink jersey in the Montalcino stage of the 2010 Giro because he crashed and the other favorites did not wait for him.

But I agree with you on the fact that it's ok to take advantage of other riders' problems, as long as you don't complain when you end up on the wrong side.

 

[fungusbear]

In my opinion, I think Nibali was right to attack. He was not a threat to Froome and wanted to win a stage. If it had been Quintana attacking Froome's mechanical, that would make me more uncomfortable, ashe would be trying to take yellow from Froome's misfortune.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

In my opinion, I think Nibali was right to attack. He was not a threat to Froome and wanted to win a stage. If it had been Quintana attacking Froome's mechanical, that would make me more uncomfortable, ashe would be trying to take yellow from Froome's misfortune.

I think it's more to do with the fact others in that group would have hesitated chasing Nibali, knowing the yellow jerseys misfortune. Because Nibali's lower down on GC, there's a cascading effect of eventually someone in that group will want to chase him because it's a threat to the standings and so it cascades up the GC placings in Froomes group, so it does indirectly affect Froome because Quintana did have to chase to stay with the groups advantage over Froome. The battle in terms of chasing tends to cascade up the GC standings when a lower GC rider attacks like that so the yellow jersey is disadvantaged still.

 

[Arnout]

I watched this stage delayed. Not one second I even considered this whole mechanical - gate controversy. Cycling is so disappointing sometimes, we got a great stage and a great winner in Nibali and all I read is some stupid polemics because someone got a *** mechanical. Why didn't everyone wait while Bardet fixed his bike, after all he "deserved" his 20 seconds lead in that descent...

On a more cheerful note, all hail Nibali. That was a brilliant performance and not one anyone could've predicted a week ago. Some fighting spirit

 

[cineteq]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Nibali attacking today was his own right regardless of Froome had a mechanical. Nibali and his team provoked Froome's isolation.. Froome attacked the current TdF champion on stage 3. Froome better shut up. Basta!

 

[samhocking]

Re:

I watched this stage delayed. Not one second I even considered this whole mechanical - gate controversy. Cycling is so disappointing sometimes, we got a great stage and a great winner in Nibali and all I read is some stupid polemics because someone got a **** mechanical. Why didn't everyone wait while Bardet fixed his bike, after all he "deserved" his 20 seconds lead in that descent...

On a more cheerful note, all hail Nibali. That was a brilliant performance and not one anyone could've predicted a week ago. Some fighting spirit

Bardet's battle had already started that's why. If you start a shootout and your gun jams halfway through nobody is taking advantage are they. If you start a battle because you know the others gun is jammed, then this isn't playing by the rules is it? This is the difference and why Nibali will ultimately pay for what he's done when he next has a mechanical or some misfortune. That's the great thing with unwritten rules, teams resolve them next time around in following stages or a different race entirely.

 

[Arnout]

Re: Re:

I watched this stage delayed. Not one second I even considered this whole mechanical - gate controversy. Cycling is so disappointing sometimes, we got a great stage and a great winner in Nibali and all I read is some stupid polemics because someone got a **** mechanical. Why didn't everyone wait while Bardet fixed his bike, after all he "deserved" his 20 seconds lead in that descent...

On a more cheerful note, all hail Nibali. That was a brilliant performance and not one anyone could've predicted a week ago. Some fighting spirit

Bardet's battle had already started that's why. If you start a shootout and your gun jams halfway through nobody is taking advantage are they. If you start a battle because you know the others gun is jammed, then this isn't playing by the rules is it? This is the difference and why Nibali will ultimately pay for what he's done when he next has a mechanical or some misfortune. That's the great thing with unwritten rules, teams resolve them next time around in following stages or a different race entirely.

Are there rules like that yeah? Point me to them.

And scrap every single Paris-Roubaix winner since ever

 

[cantpedal]

Re: Re:

Yes, and what people thought was a bottle was obviously a flag.

Nibs threw a flag at Froome? The scoundrel.

No actually he waved a flag and it was white as well.....




Allthough it was a spectator

I didn't know he was French...

 

[Matt92]

Re: Re:

I watched this stage delayed. Not one second I even considered this whole mechanical - gate controversy. Cycling is so disappointing sometimes, we got a great stage and a great winner in Nibali and all I read is some stupid polemics because someone got a **** mechanical. Why didn't everyone wait while Bardet fixed his bike, after all he "deserved" his 20 seconds lead in that descent...

On a more cheerful note, all hail Nibali. That was a brilliant performance and not one anyone could've predicted a week ago. Some fighting spirit

Bardet's battle had already started that's why. If you start a shootout and your gun jams halfway through nobody is taking advantage are they. If you start a battle because you know the others gun is jammed, then this isn't playing by the rules is it? This is the difference and why Nibali will ultimately pay for what he's done when he next has a mechanical or some misfortune. That's the great thing with unwritten rules, teams resolve them next time around in following stages or a different race entirely.

If we want to go that way, Nibali was due something like that because of what happened in Montalcino.

 

[samhocking]

As I said, you're welcome to break the rules, but Nibali will pay for it another day, that's how the unwritten rules work.

One day racing is a bit different. There is no GC battle in a one day race is there, so the advantage/misfortune is considered part of the whole race. Even then a breakaway group will often wait for a punctured member of that group to get back on as there is an advantage to the group to have him back contributing.

 

[Poursuivant]

Nibali's reaction to Tony Martin's crash was worse, it was actually embarrasing that day how he reacted blaming Froome. He has focused all year on this one race and turned up below par at the start, he has only himself to blame. Great win today though, and it won me my bet

 

[jaylew]

I'm mostly ok with what Nibali did but I want you guys who are on the side of "it's a race, attack whenever you can, etc..." to honestly think about it and seriously ask yourselves if you would respond exactly the same way if say, Froome or Valverde had done the same thing? I'm honestly curious.

 

[Vino's Mum]

Re: Re:

“Lots of things have happened to me too, but that's cycling. When Contador crashed on the descent (to Pra-Loup) we didn't know until three or four kilometres after. It happens a lot of times in races. I can remember when I crashed at the 2010 Giro d'Italia, at Montalcino. There was the incident when Andy Schleck was attacked by Contador at the Tour the other year. There are no rules….”

More fans (those with and those without typewriters) need to get this into their heads. The "Unwritten Rules of the Peloton" is a myth.

True. Just ask Jean-Francois Bernard...

1987 Tour, Jeff's first day in yellow as the heir to Hinault, with a healthy 2 1/2 minute lead after a great tt win up Mont Ventoux. Next day, Systeme U had their pockets crammed with food with the idea of attacking in the feed zone to regain the jersey for Mottet, even letting Roche in on their plan for some extra help. Jeff took his time getting back on after a puncture, knowing the feed zone was coming up. Fignon (never one to wait for anyone) led the attack for Mottet, and Jeff came in over four minutes down.

Yes, it's a race.

 

[Arnout]

Re:

I'm mostly ok with what Nibali did but I want you guys who are on the side of "it's a race, attack whenever you can, etc..." to honestly think about it and seriously ask yourselves if you would respond exactly the same way if say, Froome or Valverde had done the same thing? I'm honestly curious.

Speaking for myself only, yes. You can search back in my 3k+ posts if you like.

 

[sir fly]

I've watched the critical moments again, and can say Nibali was fully aware of Froome's problem, but his attack wasn't directed against Froome. It's irrational to think he'd gain seven minutes exploiting the mishap.
He did use the opportunity, but from different angle. Also, he couldn't make an instant gap, it took him awhile.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

I'm mostly ok with what Nibali did but I want you guys who are on the side of "it's a race, attack whenever you can, etc..." to honestly think about it and seriously ask yourselves if you would respond exactly the same way if say, Froome or Valverde had done the same thing? I'm honestly curious.

Speaking for myself only, yes. You can search back in my 3k+ posts if you like.

I think this the above is a snapshot of what McQuaid meant by the following statement:

There is a clash going on at the moment between two cultures. The Anglo-Saxon culture and what I might call the 'Mafia' Western European culture [meaning Belgium, France, Italy and Spain - ed.]. The Western European culture has to some extent, I won't say condoned doping, but because of their culture in life, the way they deal with everything else in life, they accept certain practices.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

I'm mostly ok with what Nibali did but I want you guys who are on the side of "it's a race, attack whenever you can, etc..." to honestly think about it and seriously ask yourselves if you would respond exactly the same way if say, Froome or Valverde had done the same thing? I'm honestly curious.

Yes.

 

[Arnout]

Re: Re:

I'm mostly ok with what Nibali did but I want you guys who are on the side of "it's a race, attack whenever you can, etc..." to honestly think about it and seriously ask yourselves if you would respond exactly the same way if say, Froome or Valverde had done the same thing? I'm honestly curious.

Speaking for myself only, yes. You can search back in my 3k+ posts if you like.

I think this the above is a snapshot of what McQuaid meant by the following statement:

There is a clash going on at the moment between two cultures. The Anglo-Saxon culture and what I might call the 'Mafia' Western European culture [meaning Belgium, France, Italy and Spain - ed.]. The Western European culture has to some extent, I won't say condoned doping, but because of their culture in life, the way they deal with everything else in life, they accept certain practices.

I don't know about that. Thing is, those events are what make cycling the unique sport it is. There are plenty of endurance sports, there are some sports where the mental game - the direct battle between opponents if you want - is prominent, but only road cycling combines the two perfectly. If we're going to set up rules (written or not) we'd just create another endurance sport without personality.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Froome complaining because of the attack while he had a mechanical. He's trying to find excuses because today Quintana overpowered him.

Correct. Someone 8 minutes behind moves and that bothers you? Very insecure fellow. Shows his talent is not so natural. Mechanical power meter induced. Part of why the public doesn't fancy him.

Bikes are part of the cycling,. as motorbikes are part of that sport...

I think Froome has a big talent, but if is true that oval plates give them 6 % more power of course he is not more talented than some other in le Tour.

Froome has always siad he didnt understand why people dont use that oval...becouse is proven an important benefit.

I rode yesterday with an ex euskaltel and he told me thay did proof, but his biomechanical took the conlcusion is not a benefit.

I think that overall of course that oval plate is not 6 % befenit, maybe sometimes in some circusntances yes, acording what I have read.

Sastre was today in Teledeporte and said just Froome, Wiggins and him won le Tour with that oval plate.

Galdeano said the previous day thay used already in ONCE, that is not new.

There is just one small part of the public that dont face him, it is always going to happen, it is not his fault...we used to spit Fignon in Spain. But he was a great champion, no doubt and that was totally incorrect.

I have more sympathy with Froome becouse all that people that say bad thing about him, or acusse without any evidence and things like that...

Although Froome is a lovely guy, for my way to understand cycling, other way I would like more Nibali or Contador, but this way no. No way, big injustice with Froome.

Chain eggs don't give them 6% more power. Chain eggs have a variance of 6% (3-5% in literature) when calculating power. So if the meter is saying 400 watts, it might actually only be 375. I used to ride with a guy who uses Rotor Rings and they also read about 3-5% high with his PowerTap. He didn't have 5% more power. He did a lot of testing/calculating/data crunching over a few years, and the only "gains" he got was a smoother pedal stroke which made him more efficient, so in the in the third and forth hour he had a few more watts. I'm not sure if he ever pinned down a number, but I doubt is was more than a percent of two. He prefers the feel of the eggs over round so that's worth something even if its only mental.

 

[jalep]

In Froome's words after stage 18...from CyclingNews:

“I’ve got two wheels to follow at this point: Nairo Quintana and Alejandro Valverde. I hope we can finish the job now.”

“In the next two days it would be amazing to win another stage. But at the same time, yellow is the priority, I’m not going to kill the team chasing a break unless Quintana or Valverde are in it,” he said.

He's not giving Nibali any respect and why should he be, right? Nibs was 8 minutes down. Not a threat. What a whiner Froome is, complaining about Nibali attacking. Also I can't forget that time-out he called on stage 17, (the only stage I bothered to wake up and watch) Froome called the time out why? Because the attacks were coming too fast and furious for him to handle? It certainly gave his team time to catch up. That's not racing! You don't call a time-out to simply allow yourself a break to gather your team together unless you are insecure and scared that things are going to get out of hand. The racing wasn't dangerous. The conditions were perfect - attacks are to be expected: it's a bike race! Nibali, Contador, whoever need to be chased down, chase them down. Your team is not all there and accounted for? So you can put an arm up and call a time-out? I saw Valverde put his arm on Nibali's shoulder, lean in and something was said between them at the time as well.....Nibs was p*****d off and rightly so. There wasn't a valid reason to call that time-out. Even if he called it because he'd heard Tejay was sick, so what? It's unfortunate for Tejay but does the race take a time-out or keep moving on? Tejay is number 3 on the road at that point, sure, but again, it's a fast-paced competition not the final parade into Paris already. Froome comes across overly dramatic and blows, just blows...lol the right word escapes me. He comes across as a baby throwing a tantrum when he doesn't get his way.

 

[Walkman]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Nibali attacking today was his own right regardless of Froome had a mechanical. Nibali and his team provoked Froome's isolation.. Froome attacked the current TdF champion on stage 3. Froome better shut up. Basta!

I agree with you, you should be able to attack whenever you want, but that does not make it any less of a d*ck move, if he indeed was looking at Froome, saw he had a mechanical and went for it. Nibali has every right to attack and Froome has every right to be a bit pissed since it's d*ck move. Racing is racing.

 

[Walkman]

Re:

In Froome's words after stage 18...from CyclingNews:

“I’ve got two wheels to follow at this point: Nairo Quintana and Alejandro Valverde. I hope we can finish the job now.”

“In the next two days it would be amazing to win another stage. But at the same time, yellow is the priority, I’m not going to kill the team chasing a break unless Quintana or Valverde are in it,” he said.

He's not giving Nibali any respect and why should he be, right? Nibs was 8 minutes down. Not a threat. What a whiner Froome is, complaining about Nibali attacking. Also I can't forget that time-out he called on stage 17, (the only stage I bothered to wake up and watch) Froome called the time out why? Because the attacks were coming too fast and furious for him to handle? It certainly gave his team time to catch up. That's not racing! You don't call a time-out to simply allow yourself a break to gather your team together unless you are insecure and scared that things are going to get out of hand. The racing wasn't dangerous. The conditions were perfect - attacks are to be expected: it's a bike race! Nibali, Contador, whoever need to be chased down, chase them down. Your team is not all there and accounted for? So you can put an arm up and call a time-out? I saw Valverde put his arm on Nibali's shoulder, lean in and something was said between them at the time as well.....Nibs was p*****d off and rightly so. There wasn't a valid reason to call that time-out. Even if he called it because he'd heard Tejay was sick, so what? It's unfortunate for Tejay but does the race take a time-out or keep moving on? Tejay is number 3 on the road at that point, sure, but again, it's a fast-paced competition not the final parade into Paris already. Froome comes across overly dramatic and blows, just blows...lol the right word escapes me. He comes across as a baby throwing a tantrum when he doesn't get his way.

Ohh, cry me a river.

If anything, I'd say chapeau to Froome. If he can convince the other to take a time out and they for some reason agree, then they either also wanted a truce or they are idiots and don't deserve better. End of story.

 

[jalep]

Cry me a river? lol, is that the best you've got? End of Story, says the mighty you...

Actually I agree, if Froome can somehow bribe, intimidate whatever...convince them to not attack sure they are
idiots. But today it didn't work....boohoo...Froomie didn't get his way

And I hope tomorrow Froomie baby is equally as mad...