Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Well obviously neither have been in exactly the same situation - because that would be ludicrous. Contador, though was dropped badly on Finestre last season, but rode sensibly and within himself to limit his losses and win overall.

Kruijswijk didn't lose the Maglia Rosa in the crash, he lost it in the last 8km - where he gave up three minutes to Nibali and 2 minutes to Chaves. He bottled it on the descent, panicked and tried to chase back on the false flat and blew up on the last climb.

The crash may have been the catalyst, but it was his reaction to it which really cost him the race lead.

If he didn't ride hard spending energy in the flat, he would've lost his jersey on the flat already and now he rode hard, he lost it on the mountain. When you've just crashed and you've got like 35(?)km of easy descent and flat to go with almost no help, whilst your rivals all have teammates to ride for them, you're going to lose minutes whatever you do.

That's not really true, the flatter part of the downhill is only 14km long - and it is still downhill. He would have lost maybe another 30 seconds to 1 minute if he hadn't chased like a madman on the easier part of the descent.

The tactical choice was to keep cool and save the extra power for the climb - putting it to use against gravity - where every watt propels you forward, rather than trying to fight a losing battle against the wind to get an extra 5km/h on the descent.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

So much people willling to lie yourselves here. But what hilariuos sh** one can read here, like "form is temporary class remains", or "or worm is temporary glass remains", I don't know. So you don't need a form to win GT, just class, huh? Of course. And what is this, the class?

Nevermind, Chaves is leading this race at the moment, not Nibali.

Nibali is the kind of rider that can find a way to win even when his form hasn't been as high as it can be. He will risk blowing up and sacrificing everthing for the win - that's class - even more so when he can successfully pull it off.

Also, all this talk of Kruijswijk crashing. It was hardly a major spill, that single-handedly ended his chances of winning the race. Do you think Nibali, Contador, Froome or Quintana would have gone on to lose five minutes had they been caught up in the same incident?

Froome yes, he can't deal with crashes.

Without the crash, Kruisjwijk would've been distanced in the descent but he would still be in pink today with a good lead.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

So much people willling to lie yourselves here. But what hilariuos sh** one can read here, like "form is temporary class remains", or "or worm is temporary glass remains", I don't know. So you don't need a form to win GT, just class, huh? Of course. And what is this, the class?

Nevermind, Chaves is leading this race at the moment, not Nibali.

Nibali is the kind of rider that can find a way to win even when his form hasn't been as high as it can be. He will risk blowing up and sacrificing everthing for the win - that's class - even more so when he can successfully pull it off.

Also, all this talk of Kruijswijk crashing. It was hardly a major spill, that single-handedly ended his chances of winning the race. Do you think Nibali, Contador, Froome or Quintana would have gone on to lose five minutes had they been caught up in the same incident?

Froome yes, he can't deal with crashes.

Without the crash, Kruisjwijk would've been distanced in the descent but he would still be in pink today with a good lead.

Quite possibly, but that's not really the issue. I think he could have still possibly kept hold of the MR if he would have ridden a bit more tactically once he had crashed.

Anyway, this has gone a bit off topic. The original point I wanted to make was that a rider like Nibali or Contador, with their experience probably wouldn't have panicked in the same way that Kruijswijk did and would have limited their losses far better. Although, to be fair, Nibali wouldn't have even crashed there, because he knows how to ride a bike.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

So much people willling to lie yourselves here. But what hilariuos sh** one can read here, like "form is temporary class remains", or "or worm is temporary glass remains", I don't know. So you don't need a form to win GT, just class, huh? Of course. And what is this, the class?

Nevermind, Chaves is leading this race at the moment, not Nibali.

Nibali is the kind of rider that can find a way to win even when his form hasn't been as high as it can be. He will risk blowing up and sacrificing everthing for the win - that's class - even more so when he can successfully pull it off.

Also, all this talk of Kruijswijk crashing. It was hardly a major spill, that single-handedly ended his chances of winning the race. Do you think Nibali, Contador, Froome or Quintana would have gone on to lose five minutes had they been caught up in the same incident?

Froome yes, he can't deal with crashes.

Without the crash, Kruisjwijk would've been distanced in the descent but he would still be in pink today with a good lead.

Without the crash, at worst he ends up in the Valverde group where Valverde helps pulling because his podium spot is in jeopardy

 

[hfer07]

Re:

To many messages quoted so I couldn't 'reply'

"I think you also may be falling for the classic error when reading a forum. Just because the consensus may say Nibali is rubbish one day and great the next, doesn't mean that the individual posters have said both things. Nibali fans have probably been pretty quiet this Giro until now."

Exactly...I have suffered mostly in silence. My mother taught me if you can't say anything nice just stay silent. Many haven't leaned that lesson yet .

+100000

Wisdom in those words

 

[sir fly]

Showed class today. Found a way to keep himself in fight for the overall.
Tomorrow's a new day.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

Without allies nearby, probably.

And the crash did single-handedly end his chances of winning the race.

Rubbish. He was 2 minutes behind Nibali and Chaves with about 8km to go. He just blew up big time. No way riders like Quintana or Contador would have lost three minutes in a few km like that - crash or no crash.

If he had the legs and experience he could have limited his losses much better today.

Had the crash not happened, he wouldn't have blown up big time.

You seem certain of this, but I don't recall any instance in which either rider displayed great composure in similar circumstances, because they haven't, to my knowledge, been in such a situation. So unless you can point to something concrete here, the notion that Quintana or Contador would have fared much better after the crash seems to be an article of faith.

Well obviously neither have been in exactly the same situation - because that would be ludicrous. Contador, though was dropped badly on Finestre last season, but rode sensibly and within himself to limit his losses and win overall.

Kruijswijk didn't lose the Maglia Rosa in the crash, he lost it in the last 8km - where he gave up three minutes to Nibali and 2 minutes to Chaves. He bottled it on the descent, panicked and tried to chase back on the false flat and blew up on the last climb.

The crash may have been the catalyst, but it was his reaction to it which really cost him the race lead.

I'm not requiring the exact some situation, all I'm requiring is something more akin to what happened than merely getting dropped. Crashes are disorienting events. You would not expect riders to remain very composed following such an incident, and I frankly see little evidence other riders would have done much better without team help. Contador perhaps, who has been at the pointy end of GTs for almost a decade. Certainly not Nibali who now attributes his previous struggles to the effort of chasing after Chaves and Crashweak when they dropped him. Should've paced himself better. And he didn't even crash!

I just learned Crashweak sustained a broken rib. I'm sure Quintana et al would have done a barrel roll to avoid the damage

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

So much people willling to lie yourselves here. But what hilariuos sh** one can read here, like "form is temporary class remains", or "or worm is temporary glass remains", I don't know. So you don't need a form to win GT, just class, huh? Of course. And what is this, the class?

Nevermind, Chaves is leading this race at the moment, not Nibali.

Nibali is the kind of rider that can find a way to win even when his form hasn't been as high as it can be. He will risk blowing up and sacrificing everthing for the win - that's class - even more so when he can successfully pull it off.

Also, all this talk of Kruijswijk crashing. It was hardly a major spill, that single-handedly ended his chances of winning the race. Do you think Nibali, Contador, Froome or Quintana would have gone on to lose five minutes had they been caught up in the same incident?

Until today everybody was burying Nibali, today everybody's idolizing him. Human nature at its best.
We don't know the extent of Krushweak's injuries, so no one can criticize him for losing 5 minutes after crashing so badly.

People criticized his shape but not the way he rides. And if they criticized him they said that he put too much energy in a long range attack attempt on stage 16. The point is that today he showed that if riders would just risk more they could often win from a situation in which they instead only try to defend their current position. No matter the circumstances (SK's crash is horrible and extremely sad) he showed that he isnt one of those riders and that is what impresses fans. In only one stage he went from "biggest disappointment of the giro" to "top favorite for the gc" which is something absolutely outstanding and just deserves respect

 

[Taxus4a]

Nibali climbed 2 minutes slower than 2 year ago and they climbed agnello slower than people as Arroyo or Zabriskie in the past era...so it want a superperformance, but a performance of class.

I think Nibali suffered by pressure, big favourite and italian, he didnt rode the Tour...he wanst at a better level than the rest with good weather but he has the class and the experience to manage the end of a grand Tour. and Chaves wasted his energie in Agnello and paid a little at the end.

Tomorrow will win the Giro the best...I dont know if Chaves could hold all the Astana estrategy and a Nibali confident and without pressure. If he do, he will deserve this Giro, and if Nibali can recover those seconds he will deserve it...I think he will do, but no eay task, he need the best of him and a little luck. chaves is no so consistent for 3 weeks so far, but he has a high level climbing.

 

[Red Rick]

2 years ago they finished lower on the climb, about 250m which could be about 40s. Then you're talking 2nd week vs 3rd week, Giro vs Tour (*** has hit the fan often this Giro), and racing Agnel really, really hard vs climbing Izoard with a 30 man group. He's not as good as in 2014, but not 2 minutes worse.

 

[huge]

Kruijswick crashed because he went beyond his limits and skills.
And he went beyond them because Nibali was pushing really hard, on purpose. That's not luck. That's called bike racing. Exploiting opponents' weak spots. He saw Kruijswick was not at his best at the top of the Colle dell'Agnello and went for it. The Dutchman himself admitted it saying it was only his own stupid mistake.

Nibali has won 3 GTs and has finished on the podium 4 times! You cannot get those achievements by luck!

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

So much people willling to lie yourselves here. But what hilariuos sh** one can read here, like "form is temporary class remains", or "or worm is temporary glass remains", I don't know. So you don't need a form to win GT, just class, huh? Of course. And what is this, the class?

Nevermind, Chaves is leading this race at the moment, not Nibali.

Nibali is the kind of rider that can find a way to win even when his form hasn't been as high as it can be. He will risk blowing up and sacrificing everthing for the win - that's class - even more so when he can successfully pull it off.

Also, all this talk of Kruijswijk crashing. It was hardly a major spill, that single-handedly ended his chances of winning the race. Do you think Nibali, Contador, Froome or Quintana would have gone on to lose five minutes had they been caught up in the same incident?

Until today everybody was burying Nibali, today everybody's idolizing him. Human nature at its best.
We don't know the extent of Krushweak's injuries, so no one can criticize him for losing 5 minutes after crashing so badly.

People criticized his shape but not the way he rides. And if they criticized him they said that he put too much energy in a long range attack attempt on stage 16. The point is that today he showed that if riders would just risk more they could often win from a situation in which they instead only try to defend their current position.

So many words, but where did I say something that is the opposite of what you wrote?

About the rest of your post, there's where we disagree. To me is debatable, especially considering that the best rider (by far) crashed badly.

 

[SeriousSam]

Indeed, and if lightning were to strike Chaves off his bike tomorrow, it will have been due to Nibali's clever petitioning of Zeus. No luck involved.

 

[huge]

Re: Re:

especially considering that the best rider (by far) crashed badly.

If the crash has had no real conseguences on his form, I think he still is the favourite for the overall, despite being 1min 05sec behind.

It also depends on how the boy reacts to such setbacks. Is he a real fighter, who gets anger and hunger from situations like that? Or he gets his willpower demolished and gives up?

I must say that I really feel for him. He had fully deserved it till now. No question about that.
And if tomorrow Kruijswick manages to get the Pink back, massive kudos to him.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

Kruijswick crashed because he went beyond his limits and skills.
And he went beyond them because Nibali was pushing really hard, on purpose. That's not luck. That's called bike racing. Exploiting opponents' weak spots. He saw Kruijswick was not at his best at the top of the Colle dell'Agnello and went for it. The Dutchman himself admitted it saying it was only his own stupid mistake.

Nibali has won 3 GTs and has finished on the podium 4 times! You cannot get those achievements by luck!

"No, I don't have a weak point" Steven Kruijswijk, yesterday.

 

[jsem94]

Eating his words I guess. Feels horrible to say it. He's not a terrible descender, just not at the level of Nibali. But whatever the case he lost the race because of a weak team too. Had he had one man in the break things would have been much easier, someone to help him on the descent those 40k when he had to work alone almost.

 

[fantomas]

Re: Re:

especially considering that the best rider (by far) crashed badly.

If the crash has had no real conseguences on his form, I think he still is the favourite for the overall, despite being 1min 05sec behind.

It also depends on how the boy reacts to such setbacks. Is he a real fighter, who gets anger and hunger from situations like that? Or he gets his willpower demolished and gives up?

I must say that I really feel for him. He had fully deserved it till now. No question about that.
And if tomorrow Kruijswick manages to get the Pink back, massive kudos to him.

It seems he's out of contention now with a fractured rib.

But even so, I think Nibali was the strongest today. Kruisjwijk himself said he was deep in the red responding to Nibali's attack in the final few hundred meters af Agnello.

 

[Vass43]

Go Nibali you gun! I has many bets on him which I had written off but getting up this morning to see he is now equal favorite with chaves is music to my ears. What a champion - never write off a champion

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Kruijswick crashed because he went beyond his limits and skills.
And he went beyond them because Nibali was pushing really hard, on purpose. That's not luck. That's called bike racing. Exploiting opponents' weak spots. He saw Kruijswick was not at his best at the top of the Colle dell'Agnello and went for it. The Dutchman himself admitted it saying it was only his own stupid mistake.

Nibali has won 3 GTs and has finished on the podium 4 times! You cannot get those achievements by luck!

Don't mention that to Anton, Froome and Contador. No one doubts Nibali is a very good rider. Luck comes and goes goes for every rider. A few days ago some people were saying that Nibali would never win another GT or words to that effect. Today he is champion. No one can deny that Nibali rode a great stage but to say that SK's fall makes him less of a rider than Nibali is a bit absurd considering the lead he had. if he landed in the snow he would have been fine but he hit an ice wall at speed. SK admitted the fault was his. It's okay to admit that Nibali had some luck and he still had to go out and win it but it's s bit silly to be saying SK is simply inferior. Nibali also crashes on descents and luckily for him it has never cost him a race of the ones I have seen.

 

[Savant12]

Re: Re:

So much people willling to lie yourselves here. But what hilariuos sh** one can read here, like "form is temporary class remains", or "or worm is temporary glass remains", I don't know. So you don't need a form to win GT, just class, huh? Of course. And what is this, the class?

Nevermind, Chaves is leading this race at the moment, not Nibali.

Nibali is the kind of rider that can find a way to win even when his form hasn't been as high as it can be. He will risk blowing up and sacrificing everthing for the win - that's class - even more so when he can successfully pull it off.

Also, all this talk of Kruijswijk crashing. It was hardly a major spill, that single-handedly ended his chances of winning the race. Do you think Nibali, Contador, Froome or Quintana would have gone on to lose five minutes had they been caught up in the same incident?

Froome yes, he can't deal with crashes.

Without the crash, Kruisjwijk would've been distanced in the descent but he would still be in pink today with a good lead.

Quite possibly, but that's not really the issue. I think he could have still possibly kept hold of the MR if he would have ridden a bit more tactically once he had crashed.

Anyway, this has gone a bit off topic. The original point I wanted to make was that a rider like Nibali or Contador, with their experience probably wouldn't have panicked in the same way that Kruijswijk did and would have limited their losses far better. Although, to be fair, Nibali wouldn't have even crashed there, because he knows how to ride a bike.

You are right about the panic with Nibali and poor tactics wasting energy. He would have just held onto his team car to make back the time lost.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

So much people willling to lie yourselves here. But what hilariuos sh** one can read here, like "form is temporary class remains", or "or worm is temporary glass remains", I don't know. So you don't need a form to win GT, just class, huh? Of course. And what is this, the class?

Nevermind, Chaves is leading this race at the moment, not Nibali.

Nibali is the kind of rider that can find a way to win even when his form hasn't been as high as it can be. He will risk blowing up and sacrificing everthing for the win - that's class - even more so when he can successfully pull it off.

Also, all this talk of Kruijswijk crashing. It was hardly a major spill, that single-handedly ended his chances of winning the race. Do you think Nibali, Contador, Froome or Quintana would have gone on to lose five minutes had they been caught up in the same incident?

Now we know Kruijswijk had broken rib, you do feel at least a bit stupid, don't you?

All the talk about Kruijswijk going beyond his limit being his fault... Have you ever heard word unlucky? Yes, man can be unlucky, even cyclist can be unlucky and that doesn't mean he's beyond his limit.

Also the "Nibali is the kind of rider that can find a way to win even when his form hasn't been as high as it can be" You don't realize that he won yesterday because his form went up, not because he found way how to win in bad form. Until he was in bad form he couldn't do nothing. He couldn't even catch other riders descending.

Also I remember the true champion, one and only cheating and holding a team car, crying like a baby, blaming others... Of course that's what true champions do.

 

[Brullnux]

I've never seen Nibali cry except after winning.

 

[jens_attacks]

champs gonna be champs.

 

[SafeBet]

Re: Re:

Nibali also crashes on descents and luckily for him it has never cost him a race of the ones I have seen.

Firenze?

Anyway, I need to eat my words. I thought he was done. Epic comeback.
Now he must be the favorite for the jersey.

Don't really get why people blast him for crying after the finish.

 

[Miburo]

Nibali was crying cause of that kid who died 2 weeks ago, it's tragic. And even if it's not because of that, what's the big deal?

Men can cry and nibali didn't do anything morally wrong yesterday either