Vincenzo Nibali

[Cycle Chic]

Moderator

Good idea, Also stop posting on this website and you will make many people happy! If you can take the other tossers with you life will be good!

Moderators - ban this twerp for a while - totally unjustified insults !

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Piepoli was doped, but that not indicated that the rest where doped...You can dope to do 30 min and not dope to do 27.

They were trying in all the ways to find something in Cobo then and later, but they couldnt, and that is for something. I understand he looks very suspicious, but he has one of the best engines for three weeks. He has a `problem with his mind, and sometimes with luck.

More than 27 in Hautacam is never suspicious if the rider is really good. lees than 27, I think is possible as well for people as Quintana.

This isn't Trollkraft, this is a parody of Trollkraft. Bravo good sir, you've taken it to a whole new level...BRAVO!!

 

[ChewbaccaD]

nibbles doing a froome on nieve was fun though.

Wasn't it!? I thought that was quite the nice touch too. 8000 RPM says "You've got no fu*king chance" like nothing else in cycling.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Yeah...the usual excuses.

And then the reality strikes back:

1) Headwind (according to both Valverde and Lemond)

2) 2014 was harder than 1996, which was just flat before Hautacam. About the same as 2000 that had HC climbing also before Hautacam. And today this stage was at the end of the tour, being the third mountain stage ridden within 3 days.

3) The stage had about the same amount of climbing km's as in 2000 and 3 times more than 1996. Overall 2014 TdF has had 6 mountain stages. 1996 had only 4. 2000 had 5.

and so on......

I guess next they start to claim that human race have evolved in the past decade so much, that they can now cycle clean as fast as dopers then. Or something else as silly as that, just to keep their fantasy of clean cycling alive. The cognitive dissonance is causing them such nasty stress and discomfort right now.

That Brailsford and Tinkov are on the same page with this is all one really needs to know. Tinkoff-Sky or Sky-Tinkoff is the only question left to answer.

 

[Mishrak]

Why exactly would it be that?

Elite athletes can produce 6 watts/kg for around about an hour of performance.[1] Nibali's time up the Hautacam was less than that (37.20). So 6.09 watts/kg is a much more human power output than the 6.4 and 6.5 outputs we've seen at other times.

Having said that, anything over 6 watts/kg, even if it's a small amount (.09) is still suspicious. And his climbs in 2014 have been all very powerful in terms of watt/kg. http://www.chronoswatts.com/en/cyclistes/90/VincenzoNibali

 

[Netserk]

Elite athletes can produce 6 watts/kg for around about an hour of performance.[1] Nibali's time up the Hautacam was less than that (37.20). So 6.09 watts/kg is a much more human power output than the 6.4 and 6.5 outputs we've seen at other times.

Having said that, anything over 6 watts/kg, even if it's a small amount (.09) is still suspicious. And his climbs in 2014 have been all very powerful in terms of watt/kg. http://www.chronoswatts.com/en/cyclistes/90/VincenzoNibali

At the end of a mountain stage? At the end of the Tour?

So why were all riders before epo so far away from that?

edit: Example:

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily
#Tour 1990, Luz Ardiden (13.30 km, 7.44 %, 989 m). Greg LeMond: 39 min 46 sec, 20.07 Kph, VAM 1492 m/h, ~5.40-5.50 W/kg.

 

[Mishrak]

Doping is probably the reason. I'm not saying Nibali is clean.

But advances in tactics, technology and training would certainly make a difference. You're going to get a much more efficient power transfer on a state of the art carbon bike versus old steel downtube shifter bikes they used to use. Aerodynamics and the like.

Also Nibali has not been under a lot of pressure in this Tour. He has barely had to respond to attacks, he has never had to go into the red from what I've seen. He hasn't crashed. He's arguably about as fresh as a person can be at this stage of the tour.

Edit:

How can you compare unrelated climbs? That doesn't even fit.

 

[Tom T.]

That's when I switch to pro wrestling to witness noble human endeavour at its finest.

It will be interesting on Saturday to see if Nibbles can hold back and not do an unbelievable TT. I think he'll go all out, his mountain performances show he can't hold himself back. His program must have him feeling like a god on the bike and he's going to milk every last drop of it.

 

[movingtarget]

I wouldn't put my hands on the fire for Nibali, just like I don't do for anyone else but this Tour doesn't prove or suggest anything. I mean he's beating good riders but Peraud is like 40, Valverde looks old and Pinot isn't exactly a proven GT rider. The 7 minute gap would've been there as well if Froome or Contador were in the race. The only thing that could change were the race dynamics but the outcome of Nibali vs. The Others would be more or less the same.
If he's doping (and although he's been to greedy for my taste these last weeks), I hope he doesn't get caught because.....I like him

A seven minute gap is not a beating it's a thrashing. He has never looked in any trouble apart from the two seconds lost to Contador on one stage which was nothing. He can ride away from the field whenever he feels like it and close gaps at any time. A much more dominant performance than his Giro win. He will probably increase his lead, in the TT. The only GC riders that could possibly take time out of him in the TT would be TJVG and Peraud. Porte probably won't even bother at this stage not that he could if he did push himself.

 

[Netserk]

Doping is probably the reason. I'm not saying Nibali is clean.

But advances in tactics, technology and training would certainly make a difference. You're going to get a much more efficient power transfer on a state of the art carbon bike versus old steel downtube shifter bikes they used to use. Aerodynamics and the like.

Also Nibali has not been under a lot of pressure in this Tour. He has barely had to respond to attacks, he has never had to go into the red from what I've seen. He hasn't crashed. He's arguably about as fresh as a person can be at this stage of the tour.

Edit:

How can you compare unrelated climbs? That doesn't even fit.

Then explain this: http://www.climbing-records.com/2014/07/impressive-ascent-times-on-pla-dadet.html

Pla d'Adet
2014:10,3 km@8,3%---30:32---average speed 20.24 km/h(Nibali-Peraud)
---31:50---average speed 19.41 km/h(Rafal Majka)

1982:10,4 km@8,3%---33:13---average speed 18.79 km/h(Beat Breu)
---33:48---average speed 18.46 km/h(Robert Alban)
---33:53---average speed 18.42 km/h(Alberto Fernandez)
---34:04---average speed 18.32 km/h(Bernard Vallet)
---34:05---average speed 18.31 km/h(Raymond Martin)
---34:06---average speed 18.30 km/h(Bernard Hinault)
---34:12---average speed 18.25 km/h(Joop Zoetemelk)
1981:10,4 km@8,3%---33:40---average speed 18.53 km/h(Lucien Van Impe)
---34:04---average speed 18.32 km/h(Sven-ake Nilsson)
---34:07---average speed 18.29 km/h(Hinault-Anderson)
---34:28---average speed 18.10 km/h(Jos De Schoenmaecker)
---34:33---average speed 18.06 km/h(Alberto Fernandez)
---34:33---average speed 18.06 km/h(Alban-Martin)
---34:43---average speed 17.97 km/h(Lucien Didier)
1978:10,4 km@8,3%---33:29---average speed 18.64 km/h(Mariano Martinez)
---33:34---average speed 18.59 km/h(Bernard Hinault)
---33:34---average speed 18.59 km/h(Michel Pollentier)
---33:48---average speed 18.46 km/h(Joop Zoetemelk)
---34:57---average speed 17.85 km/h(Joaquim Agostinho)
---34:58---average speed 17.85 km/h(Hennie Kuiper)
---35:50---average speed 17.41 km/h(Christian Seznec)
1974:10,4 km@8,3%---33:20---average speed 18.72 km/h(Raymond Poulidor)
---34:01---average speed 18.34 km/h(Vicente Lopez-Carril)
---34:22---average speed 18.16 km/h(Michel Pollentier)
---34:37---average speed 18.03 km/h(Alain Santy)
---35:09---average speed 17.75 km/h(Eddy Merckx)
---35:25---average speed 17.62 km/h(Wladimiro Panizza)
---35:54---average speed 17.38 km/h(Roger Pingeon)

 

[Mishrak]

There's several plausible explanations, in no particular order. Also this is not an exhaustive list.

1) Doping
2) Advances in Technology
3) Advances in training/health/aerodynamics
4) Changes in strategy
5) You're comparing times from 40 yeas ago and that's a near impossible comparison to draw definitive conclusions from.


What exactly is your point?

 

[Benotti69]

Elite athletes can produce 6 watts/kg for around about an hour of performance.[1] Nibali's time up the Hautacam was less than that (37.20). So 6.09 watts/kg is a much more human power output than the 6.4 and 6.5 outputs we've seen at other times.

Having said that, anything over 6 watts/kg, even if it's a small amount (.09) is still suspicious. And his climbs in 2014 have been all very powerful in terms of watt/kg. http://www.chronoswatts.com/en/cyclistes/90/VincenzoNibali

"The fact that basically every cyclist who has achieved power outputs beyond 6 W/kg has done so with doping. Between the mid-1990s and the mid-2000s, the kinds of performances we see today (and in 2013) were achieved only with doping and so to join that company invites the possibility that the modern rider is also doping."

http://sportsscientists.com/2014/07/the-physiology-at-the-front-of-the-tour/

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

But advances in tactics, technology and training would certainly make a difference. You're going to get a much more efficient power transfer on a state of the art carbon bike versus old steel downtube shifter bikes they used to use. Aerodynamics and the like.
.

Perhaps, but attacking and going solo for 10km has very little to do with tactics

 

[Mishrak]

You should quote the rest of my post.

Also Nibali has not been under a lot of pressure in this Tour. He has barely had to respond to attacks, he has never had to go into the red from what I've seen. He hasn't crashed. He's arguably about as fresh as a person can be at this stage of the tour.

 

[Netserk]

There's several plausible explanations, in no particular order. Also this is not an exhaustive list.

1) Doping
2) Advances in Technology
3) Advances in training/health/aerodynamics
4) Changes in strategy
5) You're comparing times from 40 yeas ago and that's a near impossible comparison to draw definitive conclusions from.


What exactly is your point?

40' @ 6 W/kg = not plausible clean. Which was what my first response to you was about.

 

[SimonC]

I truly hope he is clean however after seeing him bridge the gap to Nieve then pass him like he was on a motor bike raises questions. He has also looked like he could have done this on every mountain stage.

On the 2nd stage that Majka won, he looked like he had hardly broken sweat, had time to zip up his jacket, adjust his cuffllinks and don his smoking jacket.

As I say i hope he's clean as cycling can well do without the yellow jersey being DQ'd because of a doping scandal.

 

[sniper]

I truly hope he is clean however after seeing him bridge the gap to Nieve then pass him like he was on a motor bike raises questions. He has also looked like he could have done this on every mountain stage.

i'd say it answers questions.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So we've gone from, "tactics" to "advances in tactics"?

Seriously?

Advances in- !? Wait, what?

Just.

 

[Mishrak]

So we've gone from, "tactics" to "advances in tactics"?

Seriously?

Advances in- !? Wait, what?

Just.

Stop.

I'm saying from 1974 to 2014, there's been advances in tactics, training, equipment, technology, nutrition and science. This is fact. You can't argue with it.

I'm not saying Nibali is clean. Not for one second. I'm saying this:

a) there's other factors outside of doping that have increased performances over the years
b) Nibali's performance is not as alien as people are claiming.

I've already said his performance is suspicious. You guys are claiming it as definitive proof that he's doping. I don't think we can conclude that from his Hautacam climb.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

What advances in tactics Mishrak?

 

[hrotha]

What advances in tactics Mishrak?

Dull tempo riding.

 

[Mishrak]

That's probably a weak point in my statement. I'm no history buff in regards to cycling, but I'd like to think that they've had different mindsets in how you approach the races, what races you prepare for, etc. Riding to recover more in the peleton versus being a hero and winning every stage and every race through the year ala Eddy Merckx.

I don't really have an answer there at least. This doesn't invalidate the rest of my point though.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Stop.

I'm saying from 1974 to 2014, there's been advances in tactics

I think you missed a far more important advancement. The advances in tactics are nowhere near the advances in pillows.

Please, in all seriousness. Tell me a single friggin tactic used in any Tour since 1996.

Then explain how it was improved in subsequent years.

If you are going to tell me the USPS train in the noughties was an example of tactic improvement, I have a little story to tell you about a team with an organised doping program.

 

[Mishrak]

Read my above post Wiggo. Then read the rest of my point.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

NB: "tactics" is a button for me, because it's used to explain the performances of Froome. He has improve his tactics and now kills the pro peleton.

So please don't take it personally, it just shiggers my jiggery bits when someone says something as patently shudder worthy as that.

And "advances in tactics" is going to have the same effect.