Vincenzo Nibali

[jahn]

Re: Re:

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

Come On!!! I don't mind the general idea that everyone is juicing, but you have to come up with a cogent hypothesis (at least) as to why one rider can "super juice".

Look no further than Armstrong as an example.

No, no and thrice no.

You fail to explain how someone can "super juice". Look, if the rest of the peloton are clean, then fair enough - a doper is always going to win. BUT, if the peloton is ALSO juiced then you are left with nothing but "some people do better on the gear than others".

He did answer the question. I thought exactly the same answer. Not all programs are the same. We have seen the information once the trials, books, interviews, investigations are unveiled.

We've only seen the information about one program.

 

[Pantani Attacks]

Anyone see this video from a guy called durianrider (cycling mad, has some interesting vids and theories). Anyway he has some sort of agenda with this "Kinobody" guy, a bodybuilder type personal trainer who makes serious money through programs and what not and claims natty. In the vid he shows how he himself was on gear and passed bloods. Maybe some insight into cyclists?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r48cYIP5es

 

[Ruby United]

Re: Re:

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

Come On!!! I don't mind the general idea that everyone is juicing, but you have to come up with a cogent hypothesis (at least) as to why one rider can "super juice".

Look no further than Armstrong as an example.

No, no and thrice no.

You fail to explain how someone can "super juice". Look, if the rest of the peloton are clean, then fair enough - a doper is always going to win. BUT, if the peloton is ALSO juiced then you are left with nothing but "some people do better on the gear than others".

Not true. It is clear from all the details of the LA scandal that teams deem it to risky to dope all their riders during GT's. Only Hamilton, LA and maybe one or two others actually got dope during the Tour and many other teams in those days would only dope during rest days even their star riders. So it is clear that many riders don't get anywhere near the 'privelege' as the better riders and that some teams take less risk than others. Add that on to the fact that there for all we know, if teams are doping, they are doing it in different ways (perhaps the richer teams have better and newer programs, perhaps they have figured out how to dope just before doping tests and still easily pass, etc) and the fact that as you said some people do better on the gear than others, and it now comes out that there are numerous factors influencing a rider's performance even if the whole peleton is juiced. It is clearly not balanced even then.

 

[vedrafjord]

Re: Re:

We've only seen the information about one program.

Lance at USP
Tyler at USP, CSC, Phonak
Floyd at USP, Phonak
Chicken at Rabobank
Levi at Discovery
Manzano at Kelme

So we have good insights into the programmes Ferrari, Fuentes, and Leinders offered riders. Lots of other riders named in depositions or not named ('rider 15' etc). Also testimony against Ibarguren (Quickstep) from the Mantova investigation. Between those doctors that's most of the 00's peloton covered.

What we don't have is in depth testimony from the last couple of years. We have positives for EPO, steroids, fat burners, plus passport cases for some climbers/GC riders (and release of values from Horner etc) that imply that microdosing/transfusions are still a thing.

 

[Petre555]

http://www.53x12.com/#!giro2016/aaa1r

The crank lengths in combination with chaves fading away (like he always does in the last stages of a GT) and SK crash could explain the resurrection of Nibali. It seemed throughout the giro that Nibali was strong on the first climbs of the day but would always fade away later. This could have been caused by the crank lengths and his form may have been good throughout the whole giro. His power numbers on the climbs from last 2 stages are nothing special, especially if you consider the tailwind on the Lombarda. In addition I find it hard to believe that Nibali would be the only one having access to BB's.

Furthermore, Uran and Valverde were very close to him on the last stage. It is not like he crushed the field.

 

[thehog]

Re:

http://www.53x12.com/#!giro2016/aaa1r

The crank lengths in combination with chaves fading away (like he always does in the last stages of a GT) and SK crash could explain the resurrection of Nibali. It seemed throughout the giro that Nibali was strong on the first climbs of the day but would always fade away later. This could have been caused by the crank lengths and his form may have been good throughout the whole giro. His power numbers on the climbs from last 2 stages are nothing special, especially if you consider the tailwind on the Lombarda. In addition I find it hard to believe that Nibali would be the only one having access to BB's.

Furthermore, Uran and Valverde were very close to him on the last stage. It is not like he crushed the field.

Ferrari would have some awesome war stories to tell. I find him ever so interesting.

A dozen years ago, Eddy Mazzoleni, a rider of similar size (181 cm x 67 Kg) to Vincenzo Nibali, decided to increase the length of his bike cranks from 172.5mm to 175mm.

He showed up to a training camp on Mt. Teide with this change already being adopted by a few weeks.
Despite the good feelings on the bike, the performance during the longer sessions showed conspicuous declines in the final, seemingly without a specific reason related to nutrition or otherwise.

Longer cranks allow a greater thrust lever, reducing, at the same wattage, the peak force required in pedaling, but it forces the legs to a wider revolution.

This leads to changes in joint excursions, higher internal friction, resulting in greater energy expenditure, which in prolonged efforts results in a drop in performance over the long distance.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

http://www.53x12.com/#!giro2016/aaa1r

The crank lengths in combination with chaves fading away (like he always does in the last stages of a GT) and SK crash could explain the resurrection of Nibali. It seemed throughout the giro that Nibali was strong on the first climbs of the day but would always fade away later. This could have been caused by the crank lengths and his form may have been good throughout the whole giro. His power numbers on the climbs from last 2 stages are nothing special, especially if you consider the tailwind on the Lombarda. In addition I find it hard to believe that Nibali would be the only one having access to BB's.

Furthermore, Uran and Valverde were very close to him on the last stage. It is not like he crushed the field.

Ferrari would have some awesome war stories to tell. I find him ever so interesting.

A dozen years ago, Eddy Mazzoleni, a rider of similar size (181 cm x 67 Kg) to Vincenzo Nibali, decided to increase the length of his bike cranks from 172.5mm to 175mm.

He showed up to a training camp on Mt. Teide with this change already being adopted by a few weeks.
Despite the good feelings on the bike, the performance during the longer sessions showed conspicuous declines in the final, seemingly without a specific reason related to nutrition or otherwise.

Longer cranks allow a greater thrust lever, reducing, at the same wattage, the peak force required in pedaling, but it forces the legs to a wider revolution.

This leads to changes in joint excursions, higher internal friction, resulting in greater energy expenditure, which in prolonged efforts results in a drop in performance over the long distance.

Ferrari has his own personal agenda so it is more the comedy value i like rather than him telling any truths.

 

[Stingray34]

Re:

Bernhard Kohl started doping at 19. He got on an A-level program for the 2008 season, at 26. He podiumed the Tour. Super juiced.

I was just thinking of his generation today - Schumacher, Kirchen, Valjevic and that other Gerolsteiner Austrian, whatever his name was. Has Kohl written a book yet? Or a tell-all interview? This is a guy I would believe since he didn't just 'do his time' and return a la Valverdope.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re: Re:

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

Come On!!! I don't mind the general idea that everyone is juicing, but you have to come up with a cogent hypothesis (at least) as to why one rider can "super juice".

Look no further than Armstrong as an example.

No, no and thrice no.

You fail to explain how someone can "super juice". Look, if the rest of the peloton are clean, then fair enough - a doper is always going to win. BUT, if the peloton is ALSO juiced then you are left with nothing but "some people do better on the gear than others".

He did answer the question. I thought exactly the same answer. Not all programs are the same. We have seen the information once the trials, books, interviews, investigations are unveiled.

Horner pretty clearly demonstrated how much you can get away with and not trip the passport. He got a big bump.
http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/63542182838/analysis-horners-biopassport-data

 

[Stingray34]

Re:

Anyone see this video from a guy called durianrider (cycling mad, has some interesting vids and theories). Anyway he has some sort of agenda with this "Kinobody" guy, a bodybuilder type personal trainer who makes serious money through programs and what not and claims natty. In the vid he shows how he himself was on gear and passed bloods. Maybe some insight into cyclists?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r48cYIP5es

Durianrider posts on here sometimes - or should I say - either pontificates on his mega-high carb diet/lifestyle-edict/moral philosophy, or asks for doping advice. Harley - his real name - isn't a very nice person. He likes to think he means well, but he don't.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Bernhard Kohl started doping at 19. He got on an A-level program for the 2008 season, at 26. He podiumed the Tour. Super juiced.

I was just thinking of his generation today - Schumacher, Kirchen, Valjevic and that other Gerolsteiner Austrian, whatever his name was. Has Kohl written a book yet? Or a tell-all interview? This is a guy I would believe since he didn't just 'do his time' and return a la Valverdope.

couldnt remember either., aint been following cycling for a while. totschnig

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

Come On!!! I don't mind the general idea that everyone is juicing, but you have to come up with a cogent hypothesis (at least) as to why one rider can "super juice".

Look no further than Armstrong as an example.

No, no and thrice no.

You fail to explain how someone can "super juice". Look, if the rest of the peloton are clean, then fair enough - a doper is always going to win. BUT, if the peloton is ALSO juiced then you are left with nothing but "some people do better on the gear than others".

He did answer the question. I thought exactly the same answer. Not all programs are the same. We have seen the information once the trials, books, interviews, investigations are unveiled.

We've only seen the information about one program.

folx r idjits

THREE weeks Gt's are ALL about the recovery doping and coming back and smashing it in the next week like you are fresh and rested.

 

[blackcat]

anyway, Thomas Dekker was far more talented than Nibali.

I woulda paid good money to see both Ricky Riccio and T Dekker on full genius and get Bobby Julich in to fix Ricky's chrono

 

[Big Doopie]

nibali did not look like he was breathing. his mouth was closed on the second to last mountain, while others were suffering.

when you compare that with the much more human nibali we had seen only days before, it was really striking.

you can say what you want about SK's crash and Chavito (god, I love that guy) 's wearing down. it was the complete ease of dominance, the closed mouth (at 2700 m altitude) and the general body expression after what we had just seen from him, that was absolutely stunning.

what was unfortunate is that it destroyed what had been a very exciting, very 1980's style race...

you add that to the almost agressively unapolgetic vino. to astana's connection to ferrari. to nibali cheating FLAGRANTLY and OUTRAGEOUSLY during last year's vuelta. to aru's magical revival at giro 2015. to nibali's magical revival at tdf 2015....

u simply cannot believe at all.

 

[danielovichdk2]

Chaves didn't have a team and it was clear he went lights out on Friday stage, and couldn't come back on Saturday. Done deal! He broke!

Kruijswijk would have won, no doubt! But he crashed and faded away due to his injuries. What did you expect ?

Nibali found himself after have been down and probably taken a strike mentally. He has always been a good rider under pressure, and handled the situation close to perfect.

Nibali won but wouldn't have if Kruijswijk hadn't crashed. End of discussion, for me at least.

Even more important question that no one is keen on answering is what the f**k happened to Landa and his stomach.

 

[Petre555]

nibali did not look like he was breathing. his mouth was closed on the second to last mountain, while others were suffering.

when you compare that with the much more human nibali we had seen only days before, it was really striking.

you can say what you want about SK's crash and Chavito (god, I love that guy) 's wearing down. it was the complete ease of dominance, the closed mouth (at 2700 m altitude) and the general body expression after what we had just seen from him, that was absolutely stunning.

what was unfortunate is that it destroyed what had been a very exciting, very 1980's style race...

you add that to the almost agressively unapolgetic vino. to astana's connection to ferrari. to nibali cheating FLAGRANTLY and OUTRAGEOUSLY during last year's vuelta. to aru's magical revival at giro 2015. to nibali's magical revival at tdf 2015....

u simply cannot believe at all.

It is ridiculous to conclude that someone is flagrantly cheating just because he seems like he is not breathing..

If Kruiswijk did not crash, stayed in the race and kept his power numbers up then nobody would be talking about a 'miraculous' resurrection of Nibali. Kruiswijk would have at least stayed with or dropped Nibali if he could keep up his power numbers from the stages in the dolomites. Would everybody then be concluding Kruiswijk was fragrantly doping?

Try to look at things objectively instead of always these prejudices about Italian, spanish, russian etc riders. I really do not see why Nibali who is a proven GT winner is more suspicious than Kruiswijk who has outperformed all of his previous achievements.

I am not saying Nibali does not dope but I do not see why his performance was extra ordinary relative to other riders? He did not even get up to 6W/kg on any climb for longer than 5 minutes while kruiswijk got 6W/kg for 28minutes.

 

[PeterB]

nibali did not look like he was breathing. his mouth was closed on the second to last mountain, while others were suffering.

when you compare that with the much more human nibali we had seen only days before, it was really striking.

you can say what you want about SK's crash and Chavito (god, I love that guy) 's wearing down. it was the complete ease of dominance, the closed mouth (at 2700 m altitude) and the general body expression after what we had just seen from him, that was absolutely stunning.

what was unfortunate is that it destroyed what had been a very exciting, very 1980's style race...

you add that to the almost agressively unapolgetic vino. to astana's connection to ferrari. to nibali cheating FLAGRANTLY and OUTRAGEOUSLY during last year's vuelta. to aru's magical revival at giro 2015. to nibali's magical revival at tdf 2015....

u simply cannot believe at all.

It is ridiculous to conclude that someone is flagrantly cheating just because he seems like he is not breathing..

If Kruiswijk did not crash, stayed in the race and kept his power numbers up then nobody would be talking about a 'miraculous' resurrection of Nibali. Kruiswijk would have at least stayed with or dropped Nibali if he could keep up his power numbers from the stages in the dolomites. Would everybody then be concluding Kruiswijk was fragrantly doping?

Try to look at things objectively instead of always these prejudices about Italian, spanish, russian etc riders. I really do not see why Nibali who is a proven GT winner is more suspicious than Kruiswijk who has outperformed all of his previous achievements.

I am not saying Nibali does not dope but I do not see why his performance was extra ordinary relative to other riders? He did not even get up to 6W/kg on any climb for longer than 5 minutes while kruiswijk got 6W/kg for 28minutes.

It was really strange how Nibali finished the penultimate stage. I mean, he must have pushed to the very limit, right? Because he could not know for sure whether the gap to Chaves was enough. But after crossing the line, almost no signs of fatigue. And he rode hard. Cause it was that the most decisive stage of the year for him. Win or lose. In fact, he destroyed all the rest like little kids. So maybe he is really so much better than the others just was not able to show it on the road in earlier stages (and we know he is a GT star while others are second tier, so this could be the case), or... clinic. And it is quite a pity because up to that point the GC riders produced relatively believable performance in my opinion.

 

[Digger]

The sky fans, who defend all things sky to the hilt, whilst now casting doubt on Nibali...amazing.

 

[happytramp]

nibali did not look like he was breathing. his mouth was closed on the second to last mountain, while others were suffering.

when you compare that with the much more human nibali we had seen only days before, it was really striking.

you can say what you want about SK's crash and Chavito (god, I love that guy) 's wearing down. it was the complete ease of dominance, the closed mouth (at 2700 m altitude) and the general body expression after what we had just seen from him, that was absolutely stunning.

what was unfortunate is that it destroyed what had been a very exciting, very 1980's style race...

you add that to the almost agressively unapolgetic vino. to astana's connection to ferrari. to nibali cheating FLAGRANTLY and OUTRAGEOUSLY during last year's vuelta. to aru's magical revival at giro 2015. to nibali's magical revival at tdf 2015....

u simply cannot believe at all.

It is ridiculous to conclude that someone is flagrantly cheating just because he seems like he is not breathing..

If Kruiswijk did not crash, stayed in the race and kept his power numbers up then nobody would be talking about a 'miraculous' resurrection of Nibali. Kruiswijk would have at least stayed with or dropped Nibali if he could keep up his power numbers from the stages in the dolomites. Would everybody then be concluding Kruiswijk was fragrantly doping?

Try to look at things objectively instead of always these prejudices about Italian, spanish, russian etc riders. I really do not see why Nibali who is a proven GT winner is more suspicious than Kruiswijk who has outperformed all of his previous achievements.

I am not saying Nibali does not dope but I do not see why his performance was extra ordinary relative to other riders? He did not even get up to 6W/kg on any climb for longer than 5 minutes while kruiswijk got 6W/kg for 28minutes.

It was really strange how Nibali finished the penultimate stage. I mean, he must have pushed to the very limit, right? Because he could not know for sure whether the gap to Chaves was enough. But after crossing the line, almost no signs of fatigue. And he rode hard. Cause it was that the most decisive stage of the year for him. Win or lose. In fact, he destroyed all the rest like little kids. So maybe he is really so much better than the others just was not able to show it on the road in earlier stages (and we know he is a GT star while others are second tier, so this could be the case), or... clinic. And it is quite a pity because up to that point the GC riders produced relatively believable performance in my opinion.

Including the mighty Uran and Valverde by a staggering 17 seconds......

 

[blackcat]

nibali did not look like he was breathing. his mouth was closed on the second to last mountain, while others were suffering.

when you compare that with the much more human nibali we had seen only days before, it was really striking.

you can say what you want about SK's crash and Chavito (god, I love that guy) 's wearing down. it was the complete ease of dominance, the closed mouth (at 2700 m altitude) and the general body expression after what we had just seen from him, that was absolutely stunning.

what was unfortunate is that it destroyed what had been a very exciting, very 1980's style race...

you add that to the almost agressively unapolgetic vino. to astana's connection to ferrari. to nibali cheating FLAGRANTLY and OUTRAGEOUSLY during last year's vuelta. to aru's magical revival at giro 2015. to nibali's magical revival at tdf 2015....

u simply cannot believe at all.

It is ridiculous to conclude that someone is flagrantly cheating just because he seems like he is not breathing..

If Kruiswijk did not crash, stayed in the race and kept his power numbers up then nobody would be talking about a 'miraculous' resurrection of Nibali. Kruiswijk would have at least stayed with or dropped Nibali if he could keep up his power numbers from the stages in the dolomites. Would everybody then be concluding Kruiswijk was fragrantly doping?

Try to look at things objectively instead of always these prejudices about Italian, spanish, russian etc riders. I really do not see why Nibali who is a proven GT winner is more suspicious than Kruiswijk who has outperformed all of his previous achievements.

I am not saying Nibali does not dope but I do not see why his performance was extra ordinary relative to other riders? He did not even get up to 6W/kg on any climb for longer than 5 minutes while kruiswijk got 6W/kg for 28minutes.

wots the explanation?

cycling.

in the inimitable words of Bubba Clinton and his advisor George Stephanopoulos its the economy stupid

its <the economy striketrhu> cycling stupid, or... its chinatown jake

 

[the delgados]

I really hope the cycling media--and media in general--question Nibali and others about joining a team funded by a 'Prince" who has been known to torture those in his home country who promote democracy.
That will be interesting.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

It is ridiculous to conclude that someone is flagrantly cheating just because he seems like he is not breathing..

If Kruiswijk did not crash, stayed in the race and kept his power numbers up then nobody would be talking about a 'miraculous' resurrection of Nibali. Kruiswijk would have at least stayed with or dropped Nibali if he could keep up his power numbers from the stages in the dolomites. Would everybody then be concluding Kruiswijk was fragrantly doping?

Try to look at things objectively instead of always these prejudices about Italian, spanish, russian etc riders. I really do not see why Nibali who is a proven GT winner is more suspicious than Kruiswijk who has outperformed all of his previous achievements.

I am not saying Nibali does not dope but I do not see why his performance was extra ordinary relative to other riders? He did not even get up to 6W/kg on any climb for longer than 5 minutes while kruiswijk got 6W/kg for 28minutes.

Nibali went from looking terrible on the bike, losing minutes and crossing the line a sweaty mess to smashing everyone while breathing through his nose. It was suspicious. If he wants to clear up the suspicion, he should release bp and power files. Simple as that.

Yes Kruiswijk improved a lot over last year, but we didnt get to see how he would respond to a full-gas Nibali attack. So he gets a pass for now. Just how the game works.

 

[The Hegelian]

nibali did not look like he was breathing. his mouth was closed on the second to last mountain, while others were suffering.

when you compare that with the much more human nibali we had seen only days before, it was really striking.

you can say what you want about SK's crash and Chavito (god, I love that guy) 's wearing down. it was the complete ease of dominance, the closed mouth (at 2700 m altitude) and the general body expression after what we had just seen from him, that was absolutely stunning.

what was unfortunate is that it destroyed what had been a very exciting, very 1980's style race...

you add that to the almost agressively unapolgetic vino. to astana's connection to ferrari. to nibali cheating FLAGRANTLY and OUTRAGEOUSLY during last year's vuelta. to aru's magical revival at giro 2015. to nibali's magical revival at tdf 2015....

u simply cannot believe at all.

It is ridiculous to conclude that someone is flagrantly cheating just because he seems like he is not breathing..

If Kruiswijk did not crash, stayed in the race and kept his power numbers up then nobody would be talking about a 'miraculous' resurrection of Nibali. Kruiswijk would have at least stayed with or dropped Nibali if he could keep up his power numbers from the stages in the dolomites. Would everybody then be concluding Kruiswijk was fragrantly doping?

Try to look at things objectively instead of always these prejudices about Italian, spanish, russian etc riders. I really do not see why Nibali who is a proven GT winner is more suspicious than Kruiswijk who has outperformed all of his previous achievements.

I am not saying Nibali does not dope but I do not see why his performance was extra ordinary relative to other riders? He did not even get up to 6W/kg on any climb for longer than 5 minutes while kruiswijk got 6W/kg for 28minutes.

I look objectively and I see Astana: in what kind of space does one have to be in to see Astana and not think.....'jeez this is dirty...'?

To be clear, what was extraordinary about Nibali's performance was not how it was relative to other riders. It was how it was relative to his own form.

When a GC rider is clearly below par deep into a grand tour, it is fairly common for them to blow up big time just trying to ride defensively. It's one of the most interesting things about GT's - seeing a previous champ totally die on some mountain, maybe even just a 2nd cat. And everyone says 'wow, no one saw that coming.'

But when they go from dead in the water to new legs and new heart, and go off on brilliant race winning attacks - history usually reveals the material cause. We know enough about this - it is knowledge. Historical knowledge, not speculation or conspiracy theory.

If you think objectively and without prejudice, the cognitive dissonance between the 'before' and 'the after' has to disappear.

Everyone knew he was dead in the water, no one suspected or predicated a resurrection. Most of the speculation was about whether or not he'd pull out.

 

[pastronef]

Re:

I really hope the cycling media--and media in general--question Nibali and others about joining a team funded by a 'Prince" who has been known to torture those in his home country who promote democracy.
That will be interesting.

I look forward to the questioning.
even if there are already some who do not agree viewtopic.php?p=1935389#p1935389

 

[IzzyStradlin]

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client