Vincenzo Nibali

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Only one of these four has ever tested positive.

Which one? Wasn't aware that any of them had.

Valverde's blood sample from a previous Giro was used to match a BB from Op Puerto. He got a 2 year ban.

So he didn't test positive then. They matched his DNA to blood found in a lab.

edit. Also, pretty sure it was a sample from the 2008 TdF - he'd never ridden the Giro at that stage.

it was a POSITIVE match from when Le Tour entered Italy. So 2 YEAR BAN.

PEDANTICS........

Wasn't really being pedantic; just highlighting how ineffective the testing is. So ineffective that, in a combined 24 years of top level racing, Nibali and Valverde haven't delivered a single positive test between them.

Or maybe they have just been clean the whole time.

 

[Netserk]

Wasn't his blood bag positive for epo?

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Wasn't his blood bag positive for epo?

Yeah, think it contained traces of EPO.

 

[WillemS]

So they need the riders to take their own blood samples to ever find something in a sample.

Great testing regime, great testing regime.

 

[Gregga]

Point is not if BB contained EPO or not.
On the evening of TdF 08 stage in Prato Nevoso CONI asked Valverde for a blood sample (as AFLD does in France sometimes, see Armstrong's showergate in 2009), then during summer '08 a CONI member was allowed by Spanish justice to take a sample from BB number 18 (the one mentionned in the Puerto files as "18.VALV. (PITI)"), pretending he wanted to know if it was matching an Italian rider DNA, then proved both bloods were the same.
Valverde was then banned on Italian soil (that's why he didn't ride TdF '09 - stage 16 had a few k in Italy) before CAS banned him for 2 years. Technically the ban was for association with Fuentes blood doping ring, just like Basso, Jaksche or Scarponi, not for EPO.

 

[DFA123]

Point is not if BB contained EPO or not.
On the evening of TdF 08 stage in Prato Nevoso CONI asked Valverde for a blood sample (as AFLD does in France sometimes, see Armstrong's showergate in 2009), then during summer '08 a CONI member was allowed by Spanish justice to take a sample from BB number 18 (the one mentionned in the Puerto files as "18.VALV. (PITI)"), pretending he wanted to know if it was matching an Italian rider DNA, then proved both bloods were the same.
Valverde was then banned on Italian soil (that's why he didn't ride TdF '09 - stage 16 had a few k in Italy) before CAS banned him for 2 years. Technically the ban was for association with Fuentes blood doping ring, just like Basso, Jaksche or Scarponi, not for EPO.

Yep, and also if he would have had the chance to transfuse it; you can bet that he wouldn't have been glowing by the time he was tested in a race.

 

[Fergoose]

Every possibility that as a leading cyclist Nibali is micro doping, particularly given the team he is with. However, if his comeback was fuelled by a special delivery or a transfusion then that was a seriously botched and shortlisting treatment. The effects were clearly wearing out by the end of yesterdays stage to the extent that it jeopardised his victory. If Chavez hadn't been sick he could have caught Nibali on the final climb the same way Uran and Valverde did.

Nibali's recovery is as much to do with SK and Chavez becoming ill (as both admit) and with Valverde's failings at altitude (as he admits) as it does with Nibali's improvement in performance. There was also no climbs that resulted in eyebrow raising watts per kilo measurements by any of the GT contendors. Overall I find the performance of the 1st, 2nd and 4th placed finishers more credible than track and field or tennis performances of recent years. I definitely won't be filing this edition of the Giro under "pantomime".

 

[Benotti69]

Point is not if BB contained EPO or not.
On the evening of TdF 08 stage in Prato Nevoso CONI asked Valverde for a blood sample (as AFLD does in France sometimes, see Armstrong's showergate in 2009), then during summer '08 a CONI member was allowed by Spanish justice to take a sample from BB number 18 (the one mentionned in the Puerto files as "18.VALV. (PITI)"), pretending he wanted to know if it was matching an Italian rider DNA, then proved both bloods were the same.
Valverde was then banned on Italian soil (that's why he didn't ride TdF '09 - stage 16 had a few k in Italy) before CAS banned him for 2 years. Technically the ban was for association with Fuentes blood doping ring, just like Basso, Jaksche or Scarponi, not for EPO.

So the blood bag did not contain EPO or they did not bother to test it for EPO, they just needed a matching sample?

A doping ban is because a rider 'tests positive', ie he doped. Matching the BBs meant Piti doped.

 

[Gregga]

Worrying stuff is that old school scheme of resurrections in the last stages of GTs (Aru in Giro 2015, Nibali in TdF 2015 and again this week). Maybe Astana's "recipe" is an ability to hide for 3-4 days the effects of a bag on blood values. After the race is finished, riders go and hide a few more days in order to stabilize the mess and biopassport is ok when they got etsted the next week.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Wasn't really being pedantic; just highlighting how ineffective the testing is. So ineffective that, in a combined 24 years of top level racing, Nibali and Valverde haven't delivered a single positive test between them.

Or maybe they have just been clean the whole time.

I am half kidding with you. I agree the testing is an iq test and not much else. Riders may test positive but joe public does not get to hear, as they magically disappear. I doubt the IAAF are the only ones making test results vanish for dollars.

 

[DFA123]

Point is not if BB contained EPO or not.
On the evening of TdF 08 stage in Prato Nevoso CONI asked Valverde for a blood sample (as AFLD does in France sometimes, see Armstrong's showergate in 2009), then during summer '08 a CONI member was allowed by Spanish justice to take a sample from BB number 18 (the one mentionned in the Puerto files as "18.VALV. (PITI)"), pretending he wanted to know if it was matching an Italian rider DNA, then proved both bloods were the same.
Valverde was then banned on Italian soil (that's why he didn't ride TdF '09 - stage 16 had a few k in Italy) before CAS banned him for 2 years. Technically the ban was for association with Fuentes blood doping ring, just like Basso, Jaksche or Scarponi, not for EPO.

So the blood bag did not contain EPO or they did not bother to test it for EPO, they just needed a matching sample?

A doping ban is because a rider 'tests positive', ie he doped. Matching the BBs meant Piti doped.

The ban was for matching the bags. Basso got the same ban but, IIRC, there was no EPO in his bag.

His ban was because a bag of his blood was found in the care of a known doping doctor. That's not the same as testing positive; it's much more akin to the Festina affair - where it was the fact that there was a bag, rather than the contents of it or whether or not he used it - was the reason for his guilt. And, more to the point, if it wasn't for significant involvement outside of the usual cycling/anti-doping circle - he woud never have been busted.

Which kind of brings it back to Nibali; I guess that he has been a protected rider for a long time now. We'd probably never know if he did ever fail a test.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Wasn't really being pedantic; just highlighting how ineffective the testing is. So ineffective that, in a combined 24 years of top level racing, Nibali and Valverde haven't delivered a single positive test between them.

Or maybe they have just been clean the whole time.

I am half kidding with you. I agree the testing is an iq test and not much else. Riders may test positive but joe public does not get to hear, as they magically disappear. I doubt the IAAF are the only ones making test results vanish for dollars.

Ha! I just posted almost exactly the same thing!

We would never get to hear about it if Nibali was popped, unless there is some extra-ordinary police involvement, unwanted leak.

 

[cnc-it]

Re the blood bag theory..can't they trace this now by checking for plasticides and other chemicals that are used to lubricate the blood when it is stored in the blood bag. Also wouldn't this show a sudden mature red blood cell increase on his bio passport and drop the production of new red blood cells at the same time..he could micro dose EPO to mask this by stimulating the bone marrow to make new cells but all this is easy to detect these days surely..its not a new trick..I think something was done to boost performance after the rest day but is there a new process going on here that other teams aren't on too yet?

 

[doperhopper]

Re:

Re the blood bag theory..can't they trace this now by checking for plasticides and other chemicals that are used to lubricate the blood when it is stored in the blood bag. Also wouldn't this show a sudden mature red blood cell increase on his bio passport and drop the production of new red blood cells at the same time..he could micro dose EPO to mask this by stimulating the bone marrow to make new cells but all this is easy to detect these days surely..its not a new trick..I think something was done to boost performance after the rest day but is there a new process going on here that other teams aren't on too yet?

your first sentence is truly inspirational, I'd love to see this:

Tired of childish scientist on the screen? Instead of the old Big Bang Theory there's a new TVbuster... coming in July... from the procycling peloton...

The Blood Bag Theory.

 

[Benotti69]

Nibali reveals illness before mountain time trial at Giro d'Italia

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nibali-reveals-illness-before-mountain-time-trial-at-giro-ditalia/?utm_content=buffere0ea1&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Why dont they just keep their gobs shut. No one, except blind fans, that these guys are clean so stop with the BS.

 

[Tonton]

And he switched from apple juice to cranberry juice .The former gives you the run to the toilet, the latter gives you the fast run up the mountains. As simple as that.

I like the narrative. It's missing the drinking after the ITT disappointment, a la Floyd. A few bottles of Vino and here we go .

GrandPa, tell me a story...

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Wonder if all those bouts with stomach problems explain all the BS coming from pro cyclists' mouths?

 

[cycladianpirate]

Re: Re:

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

Come On!!! I don't mind the general idea that everyone is juicing, but you have to come up with a cogent hypothesis (at least) as to why one rider can "super juice".

Look no further than Armstrong as an example.

No, no and thrice no.

You fail to explain how someone can "super juice". Look, if the rest of the peloton are clean, then fair enough - a doper is always going to win. BUT, if the peloton is ALSO juiced then you are left with nothing but "some people do better on the gear than others".

 

[The Hitch]

Interested what the cycling is clean now mafia think about Scarponi being so strong for Nibali. I bet JV, richard moore etc all ignore it.

 

[cnc-it]

Re: Re:

Re the blood bag theory..can't they trace this now by checking for plasticides and other chemicals that are used to lubricate the blood when it is stored in the blood bag. Also wouldn't this show a sudden mature red blood cell increase on his bio passport and drop the production of new red blood cells at the same time..he could micro dose EPO to mask this by stimulating the bone marrow to make new cells but all this is easy to detect these days surely..its not a new trick..I think something was done to boost performance after the rest day but is there a new process going on here that other teams aren't on too yet?

your first sentence is truly inspirational, I'd love to see this:

Tired of childish scientist on the screen? Instead of the old Big Bang Theory there's a new TVbuster... coming in July... from the procycling peloton...

The Blood Bag Theory.

It is only a theory..no one has any proof of it actually happening with Nibs?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

Come On!!! I don't mind the general idea that everyone is juicing, but you have to come up with a cogent hypothesis (at least) as to why one rider can "super juice".

Look no further than Armstrong as an example.

No, no and thrice no.

You fail to explain how someone can "super juice". Look, if the rest of the peloton are clean, then fair enough - a doper is always going to win. BUT, if the peloton is ALSO juiced then you are left with nothing but "some people do better on the gear than others".

No, Armstrong was introduced to head of Luasanne lab and had the testing explained, ie how to beat it.

Armstrong also had UCI in back pocket and ASO on board, never mind the French president. When you have that, you can do as you please and juice as you please.

You think Cookson is gonna bust a Wiggins or a Froome? there goes the knighthood.

Remember it is the police and other government enforcement agencies that have had the biggest impact on catching doping. It sure as hell aint federation!

It also true that people have better and worse responses to PEDs same way people get better with one course of medicine while others need more or worse dont get better.

Plenty of riders went backwards when EPO arrived as they already had a naturally high HcT so could take not so much, whereas those with low mid 30s HcTs could take lots more. So they gained hugely.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

Come On!!! I don't mind the general idea that everyone is juicing, but you have to come up with a cogent hypothesis (at least) as to why one rider can "super juice".

Look no further than Armstrong as an example.

No, no and thrice no.

You fail to explain how someone can "super juice". Look, if the rest of the peloton are clean, then fair enough - a doper is always going to win. BUT, if the peloton is ALSO juiced then you are left with nothing but "some people do better on the gear than others".

He did answer the question. I thought exactly the same answer. Not all programs are the same. We have seen the information once the trials, books, interviews, investigations are unveiled.

 

[hrotha]

Bernhard Kohl started doping at 19. He got on an A-level program for the 2008 season, at 26. He podiumed the Tour. Super juiced.

 

[The Hegelian]

The benefit of the doubt around the particulars of Nibali's situation - i.e. better recovery, Chaves fading etc - is somewhat rational.

However, it falls to pieces when you contemplate the way Astana rode the Giro in 2015. That was 90's and 00's level ridiculous. They were smashing it on the front day after day, from week one. Even Sky, in their *** tdf performances would save it for the high mountains. Then there was Aru's miracle recovery.

By any measure, Astana pulled back a lot in the 2015 tdf, and in this Giro. But they knew precisely how to get it done, and they did it. Two miracle recoveries in two years - who would have thought? Maybe they are just religious? Maybe Aru and Nibbles should get tested for sainthood.....

 

[jahn]

Re: Re:

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

Come On!!! I don't mind the general idea that everyone is juicing, but you have to come up with a cogent hypothesis (at least) as to why one rider can "super juice".

Look no further than Armstrong as an example.

No, no and thrice no.

You fail to explain how someone can "super juice". Look, if the rest of the peloton are clean, then fair enough - a doper is always going to win. BUT, if the peloton is ALSO juiced then you are left with nothing but "some people do better on the gear than others".

He did answer the question. I thought exactly the same answer. Not all programs are the same. We have seen the information once the trials, books, interviews, investigations are unveiled.

We've only seen the information about one program.