Vincenzo Nibali

[kwikki]

Re:

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client

Team is irrelevant.

It's cycling. He's just won a GT. That's pretty much all you need to know if you are wondering if he doped.

 

[Orvieto]

Re:

I really hope the cycling media--and media in general--question Nibali and others about joining a team funded by a 'Prince" who has been known to torture those in his home country who promote democracy.
That will be interesting.

This is so important. Cycling is dirty in many ways, but it would sink so much lower if it becomes the PR cover for Bahrain's human rights abuses. This is a real news story journalists should be covering.

 

[86TDFWinner]

nibali did not look like he was breathing. his mouth was closed on the second to last mountain, while others were suffering.

when you compare that with the much more human nibali we had seen only days before, it was really striking.

you can say what you want about SK's crash and Chavito (god, I love that guy) 's wearing down. it was the complete ease of dominance, the closed mouth (at 2700 m altitude) and the general body expression after what we had just seen from him, that was absolutely stunning.

what was unfortunate is that it destroyed what had been a very exciting, very 1980's style race...

you add that to the almost agressively unapolgetic vino. to astana's connection to ferrari. to nibali cheating FLAGRANTLY and OUTRAGEOUSLY during last year's vuelta. to aru's magical revival at giro 2015. to nibali's magical revival at tdf 2015....

u simply cannot believe at all.

It is ridiculous to conclude that someone is flagrantly cheating just because he seems like he is not breathing..

If Kruiswijk did not crash, stayed in the race and kept his power numbers up then nobody would be talking about a 'miraculous' resurrection of Nibali. Kruiswijk would have at least stayed with or dropped Nibali if he could keep up his power numbers from the stages in the dolomites. Would everybody then be concluding Kruiswijk was fragrantly doping?

Try to look at things objectively instead of always these prejudices about Italian, spanish, russian etc riders. I really do not see why Nibali who is a proven GT winner is more suspicious than Kruiswijk who has outperformed all of his previous achievements.

I am not saying Nibali does not dope but I do not see why his performance was extra ordinary relative to other riders? He did not even get up to 6W/kg on any climb for longer than 5 minutes while kruiswijk got 6W/kg for 28minutes.

Nah, he's pretty much cheating because half his team were busted for doping and almost had their license revoked.

His win was a total fluke, he'll never win another major race imo.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

Come On!!! I don't mind the general idea that everyone is juicing, but you have to come up with a cogent hypothesis (at least) as to why one rider can "super juice".

Look no further than Armstrong as an example.

No, no and thrice no.

You fail to explain how someone can "super juice". Look, if the rest of the peloton are clean, then fair enough - a doper is always going to win. BUT, if the peloton is ALSO juiced then you are left with nothing but "some people do better on the gear than others".

Not true. It is clear from all the details of the LA scandal that teams deem it to risky to dope all their riders during GT's. Only Hamilton, LA and maybe one or two others actually got dope during the Tour and many other teams in those days would only dope during rest days even their star riders. So it is clear that many riders don't get anywhere near the 'privelege' as the better riders and that some teams take less risk than others. Add that on to the fact that there for all we know, if teams are doping, they are doing it in different ways (perhaps the richer teams have better and newer programs, perhaps they have figured out how to dope just before doping tests and still easily pass, etc) and the fact that as you said some people do better on the gear than others, and it now comes out that there are numerous factors influencing a rider's performance even if the whole peleton is juiced. It is clearly not balanced even then.

Wasn't half of Nibalis team caught doping and were threatened to have their license revoked, until the patron Saint Cookson stepped in and didn't do anything?

Granted that's not every rider on the team, but I'm pretty sure half Of a team is still pretty bad.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

This thread is beginning to sound like

Vino envy

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Re:

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client

And the cast of Orica, Movistar and Rabobank 2.0 are so much cleaner?

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client

And the cast of Orica, Movistar and Rabobank 2.0 are so much cleaner?

I'm not sure anyone is asserting that they are. What people seem to be asserting - or at least, what I am asserting - is that Nibali's resurrection was quite the full genius performance. There's a full step there. That's the proposition at play.

Those who refute have the onus of justifying the cleanliness of Astana. Which is like defending rain in a thunderstorm.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

I dont think anyone is really defending Astana's cleanliness; and although Nibali's resurrection was spectacular, his performances in itself were nothing special. Taking half a minute on Valverde on a climb is what you'd expect from him. His bad performance in the first two weeks is stranger than his last two stages imo.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client

And the cast of Orica, Movistar and Rabobank 2.0 are so much cleaner?

I'm not sure anyone is asserting that they are. What people seem to be asserting - or at least, what I am asserting - is that Nibali's resurrection was quite the full genius performance. There's a full step there. That's the proposition at play.

Those who refute have the onus of justifying the cleanliness of Astana. Which is like defending rain in a thunderstorm.

While I have no doubt that Nibali may very well dope, I genuinely believe his resurrection was mainly down to the change (back) in crank length. There may have been other things ofc, but he always seemed pretty good apart from in two stages, Andalo and Siusi. One was due to recovery and the other crank length. Then Kruijswijk crashed and Chavez faded.

 

[King Of Molehill]

Re: Re:

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client

And the cast of Orica, Movistar and Rabobank 2.0 are so much cleaner?

I'm not sure anyone is asserting that they are. What people seem to be asserting - or at least, what I am asserting - is that Nibali's resurrection was quite the full genius performance. There's a full step there. That's the proposition at play.

Those who refute have the onus of justifying the cleanliness of Astana. Which is like defending rain in a thunderstorm.

Nibs won the Giro because Kruijswijk decided to imitate a snow plow, Chaves suffered from a chest infection and Valverde doesn't like heights (really high heights) when it mattered most. Just because Nibs wasn't firing on all cylinders until the last few days of the Giro makes people think it was some sort of comeback of the ages. He was consistent enough to stay in contention then had Scarponi when he needed him most and then the guts to go-for-broke when he needed to, then the luck (or failure of his competitors) when it mattered most.

For me it's not a matter of having to justify the cleanliness of anyone because as far as I'm concerned most of them are playing the same game (except for the PE + M dopers).

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client

And the cast of Orica, Movistar and Rabobank 2.0 are so much cleaner?

I'm not sure anyone is asserting that they are. What people seem to be asserting - or at least, what I am asserting - is that Nibali's resurrection was quite the full genius performance. There's a full step there. That's the proposition at play.

There's a compelling precedent to Nibali's resurrection following blood tests: Lemond's 1989 Giro.
Lemond sucked hard during the Giro, took blood tests, discovered he suffered from anemia, then took a few iron shots, and made a spectacular recovery in the third week. Some even say it wasn't the iron shots but merely a placebo effect that did the trick.

Is a similar scenario excluded for Nibali?

 

[Valv.Piti]

sniper: Nibali didn't 'suck' in the Giro, but I have no clue to how bad LeMond was in the case you are referring to either, but I doubt he was better than Nibali before his 'resurrection' given your explanation. Nibali was hands down the 3rd best rider in Corvara, at some points only 15 seconds down on the duo Kruijswijk/Chaves with Zakarin, Majka, Valverde etc. almost coming in 2.30 behind Nibali.
So at that point it was not completely a given, but not something out of the ordinary at all that he would improve towards the end of the last week, the 2 important mountain stages. The surprising thing was first and foremost his bad performance in the MTT in Siusi and Andalo, not necessarily that he was that good in Risoul and Sant Anna. His performances got progressively better throughout the race (think Roccaraso MTF, compare to Corvara, compare to Risoul - one week span between these three performances), neglecting his 2 bad days.

Also remember, Kruiswijk crashed and obviously wasn't himself and Chaves was all but stellar in the end. At the end of the day, Urán and Valverde lost 10-15 seconds on the hardest mountain stage to Nibali who was going all out for the Giro win.

 

[sniper]

thanks for the detail, valv.piti.
So would you agree that headings like
- "Vincenzo Nibali surges back from the dead to win the Giro d'Italia for a second time"
- "Nibali pulls off a Giro d'Italia resurrection"
- "Nibali Takes Giro Lead in Huge Comeback"
are a bit over the top?

 

[thehog]

Re:

sniper: Nibali didn't 'suck' in the Giro, but I have no clue to how bad LeMond was in the case you are referring to either, but I doubt he was better than Nibali before his 'resurrection' given your explanation. Nibali was hands down the 3rd best rider in Corvara, at some points only 15 seconds down on the duo Kruijswijk/Chaves with Zakarin, Majka, Valverde etc. almost coming in 2.30 behind Nibali.
So at that point it was not completely a given, but not something out of the ordinary at all that he would improve towards the end of the last week, the 2 important mountain stages. The surprising thing was first and foremost his bad performance in the MTT in Siusi and Andalo, not necessarily that he was that good in Risoul and Sant Anna. His performances got progressively better throughout the race (think Roccaraso MTF, compare to Corvara, compare to Risoul - one week span between these three performances), neglecting his 2 bad days.

Also remember, Kruiswijk crashed and obviously wasn't himself and Chaves was all but stellar in the end. At the end of the day, Urán and Valverde lost 10-15 seconds on the hardest mountain stage to Nibali who was going all out for the Giro win.

In the MTT Nibali dropped his chain, slowed, then cranked the rear mech, stopped and had to switch bikes. He lost a lot of time on that exchange.

 

[carolina]

he was already 1 and a half minute behind before the mechanical problems

 

[thehog]

Re:

he was already 1 and a half minute behind before the mechanical problems

From whom?

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

he was already 1 and a half minute behind before the mechanical problems

From whom?

Kruijswijk, although IIRC the very reliable Italian GPS had it at 1 minute or so. He would've finished that MTT anywhere between 1:30 and 2 minutes down without the mechanical. I feel it hurt him psychologically as well.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

he was already 1 and a half minute behind before the mechanical problems

From whom?

Kruijswijk, although IIRC the very reliable Italian GPS had it at 1 minute or so. He would've finished that MTT anywhere between 1:30 and 2 minutes down without the mechanical. I feel it hurt him psychologically as well.

Doping aside, I don't think Nibali was in that bad condition. It's just the high expectations the Italians have for him. It didn't actually think it was a crisis, he was in 4th place, anything could happen and did. I admit, I didn't think he'd win but he certainly did ride better in he 3rd week. Most likely due to a well time bag drop but took his chances and it paid off.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re: Re:

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client

And the cast of Orica, Movistar and Rabobank 2.0 are so much cleaner?

Yes, I would argue that Martinelli is by far the dirtiest ds in the history of the sport.

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client

And the cast of Orica, Movistar and Rabobank 2.0 are so much cleaner?

Yes, I would argue that Martinelli is by far the dirtiest ds in the history of the sport.

Is he that much worse than someone like Unzué?
Rearding the Astana cast, we shouldn't forget Shefer, he was already a ds durning the Hogstana days.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client

And the cast of Orica, Movistar and Rabobank 2.0 are so much cleaner?

Yes, I would argue that Martinelli is by far the dirtiest ds in the history of the sport.

I would say Martinelli is no different from Bruyneel, Unzue, Lefevre, Saronni and Saiz.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re: Re:

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client

And the cast of Orica, Movistar and Rabobank 2.0 are so much cleaner?

Yes, I would argue that Martinelli is by far the dirtiest ds in the history of the sport.

I would say Martinelli is no different from Bruyneel, Unzue, Lefevre, Saronni and Saiz.

I'll go with this:
Martinelli, Unzue, Lefevre...with Martinelli being the most successful of the 3.

Getting caught bumps you down a level. And Saronni hasnt been at the top for almost a decade now.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re:

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client

Fallacious argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

And let's not underestimate the cast of characters in Astana:

Vino: VINO4EVER
Martinelli: Possibly the dirtiest DS in history (it is insane that he is still in sport)
Nibali: Long rumored Ferrari client
Scarponi: Proven Ferrari AND Puerto client

Fallacious argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

I don't think so. It's not like they're standing near each other. They're working towards a common goal in a dirty sport. They've honed their techniques. They're quite good at what they do. There's no shame... in their game.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re:

thanks for the detail, valv.piti.
So would you agree that headings like
- "Vincenzo Nibali surges back from the dead to win the Giro d'Italia for a second time"
- "Nibali pulls off a Giro d'Italia resurrection"
- "Nibali Takes Giro Lead in Huge Comeback"
are a bit over the top?

Forget the headlines - go back and read the Giro threads 'above' the clinic, before the last two mountain stages.

Everyone here had him dead and buried. Everyone. Someone even started a thread asking 'who's the 4th best GT rider, now that Nibali is finished.'

Obviously there's hyperbole in opinion as well as headline, but many people here have good knowledge of the sport. Were people that deceived about his form?