Vincenzo Nibali

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

Most modern drugs are designer drugs, altered so they are completely undetectable.

This is just not true. Doping leaves artifacts behind. The only one that is reliably undetectable is transfusing your own blood.

At this point we know the federation is letting the doping happen despite having ample evidence to sanction athletes.

Don't plasticisers show up if you've had a blood transfusion or is that 'unreliable' ?

The last time I looked, there was no threshold value for plasticizers and no other approved test for a transfusion.

cheers

 

[staubsauger]

Well if his health tests showed he's ill, it's absolutely legit to receive a blood transfusion. Happens every day at the local hospital!

*SCNR* Dan

Chaves still was struggling since the rest day and Kruijswijk crashed by his own error. Otherwise we would be talking about Squalo grabbing a podium spot which ain't nothing extraordinary given his shape after all.

Yesterday was pretty obvious. Today was only decent enough to get that final bit he needed eventually.

 

[May0maniac]

I think the appropiate term for an Italian rider suddenly flying at the end of the Giro is "pulling a 2002 Savoldelli".

 

[staubsauger]

It's more a 99 Gotti ain't it!?

 

[May0maniac]

Re:

It's more a 99 Gotti ain't it!?

I understand what you mean, but Gotti was already one of the strongest riders behin Pantani for the whole Giro, so it wasn't a huge comeback and Gotti rode the fastest Mortirolo ascent ever (with Heras and Gibo who was hanging on for dear life), so I don't know if it's the right analogy.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

Most modern drugs are designer drugs, altered so they are completely undetectable.

This is just not true. Doping leaves artifacts behind. The only one that is reliably undetectable is transfusing your own blood.

At this point we know the federation is letting the doping happen despite having ample evidence to sanction athletes.

You're right in general, that doping leaves something to be detected. But you shouldn't be arguing with the fact that in practice, these drugs can be undetectable.

Whether that undetectability is because of sophisticated chemistry, ineffective equipment, ineffective personnel, or ineffective rules, differs from athlete to athlete and drug to drug. It isn't all down to corruption, and there are technical and practical limitations that will never be surmounted.

 

[jmdirt]

Isn't good days, bad days, good days... what we would expect with clean(er) racing?
If VN did have a 'bug' for a few days he would be expected to dip a bit.
I'm not discounting what we are here in the clinic to discuss.

 

[Pantani Attacks]

Re: Re:

Most modern drugs are designer drugs, altered so they are completely undetectable.

This is just not true. Doping leaves artifacts behind. The only one that is reliably undetectable is transfusing your own blood.

At this point we know the federation is letting the doping happen despite having ample evidence to sanction athletes.

That's funny, seeing as people who have designed these sort of substances have claimed complete undetectability. But obviously they the designers don't know what you know.

 

[toolittle]

Re: Re:

Most modern drugs are designer drugs, altered so they are completely undetectable.

This is just not true. Doping leaves artifacts behind. The only one that is reliably undetectable is transfusing your own blood.

At this point we know the federation is letting the doping happen despite having ample evidence to sanction athletes.

That's funny, seeing as people who have designed these sort of substances have claimed complete undetectability. But obviously they the designers don't know what you know.

Uran, vervede finished 13a behind Nabali. It looks uran and Nabali could do well in 3rd weeks of giro. Especially in cold mountain

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Re:

The Eurosport commentator with Kelly (Rob Hatch?) said near the end of the race that Nibali "is making Italy believe in miracles again".

He also said something about his acupuncturist arriving a few days ago - the same guy who treated him in during 2014 Tour. Not a trace of tongue-in-cheek either

 

[Bolder]

Re:

Isn't good days, bad days, good days... what we would expect with clean(er) racing?
If VN did have a 'bug' for a few days he would be expected to dip a bit.
I'm not discounting what we are here in the clinic to discuss.

True.

I'm in no way saying Nibs is cleaner or dirtier than anyone else, but he benefited from some good luck (Kruiswijk's crash; Chaves having a weakish team) and in Astana having the strongest team out there who their executed tactics perfectly today. So, nothing extraordinary in the context of modern bike racing. The other interesting thing about the Giro leaderboard is that there are just 4 riders from "traditional" cycling powers, i.e. countries where the testing program isn't a completely opaque process, though I don't have much faith in Spain or Italy...

I guess you could say "clean(er)" in the sense that I think riders are using PEDs with a little more scientific precision and concern for their health. I have no proof of that, of course, but I think if drug use was as careless as it was in the EPO/testosterone days we'd have seen a lot more wreckage.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

The Eurosport commentator with Kelly (Rob Hatch?) said near the end of the race that Nibali "is making Italy believe in miracles again".

Yeah, I couldn't help but chuckle .

see my signature, Lance on the TdF podium '05

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re:

Going for testing was cover for all the needles marks in his body

I'm wondering, was he trying to win the Giro clean'ish and the doctor visit was plan-b or was that the plan from the start (a visit to the doc as cover for a blood tranny)?

It's interesting. I think part of Vino's success as an athlete hinged on his ability to creatively defeat tests, stymie investigations and stonewall snooping journalists. Armstrong had this too. He can't possibly play this card again though, right?

Back to Nibs. Did he think he could win clean before someone talked some sense into him? Hubris?

 

[HelmutRoole]

This is fascinating, by the way. Straight out of Vino's playbook. Remember when he got nicked for a blood tranny at the Tour? Same deal there. From weak to dominate in one day. It's in your face.


Sponsorship issues don't exist I suppose. The guy has free reign. Do unto the sport as you see fit.

The balls.

 

[doperhopper]

This is fascinating, by the way. Straight out of Vino's playbook. Remember when he got nicked for a blood tranny at the Tour? Same deal there. From weak to dominate in one day. It's in your face.


Sponsorship issues don't exist I suppose. The guy has free reign. Do unto the sport as you see fit.

The balls.

so, in the coming "Rate this Giro" thread we will all go for the "Vino option"

 

[Tonton]

This is fascinating, by the way. Straight out of Vino's playbook. Remember when he got nicked for a blood tranny at the Tour? Same deal there. From weak to dominate in one day. It's in your face.


Sponsorship issues don't exist I suppose. The guy has free reign. Do unto the sport as you see fit.

The balls.

This.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Let's say Chaves and Kruijswijk were clean in this Giro. What's the likelihood that they'll continue to stay clean after the performances of Nibali and Valverde over the last couple of days

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Let's say Chaves and Kruijswijk were clean in this Giro. What's the likelihood that they'll continue to stay clean after the performances of Nibali and Valverde over the last couple of days

IF they were, they should speak up. And they won't. Or ask themselves if they want to "play the game", or be satisfied with an occasional top-10, top-5 if lucky, GT finish.

This Giro raises eyebrows: not just Nibali's resurrection, but illnesses after the rest day (should the blood bag manufactured issue a recall? Will TjVG sue for his missed opportunity at last year's TdF?)

It doesn't smell good. Not good.

And Piti gets his podium .

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Let's say Chaves and Kruijswijk were clean in this Giro. What's the likelihood that they'll continue to stay clean after the performances of Nibali and Valverde over the last couple of days

Very high, because those who believe gt contenders are clean often also believe that being clean is a greater performance enhancer than all drugs ever invented.

 

[nevada]

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

Let's say Chaves and Kruijswijk were clean in this Giro. What's the likelihood that they'll continue to stay clean after the performances of Nibali and Valverde over the last couple of days

Very high, because those who believe gt contenders are clean often also believe that being clean is a greater performance enhancer than all drugs ever invented.

And that's because drugs don't work. It's hard work that pays off. And technology. And Vino .

 

[cycladianpirate]

Re:

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

Come On!!! I don't mind the general idea that everyone is juicing, but you have to come up with a cogent hypothesis (at least) as to why one rider can "super juice".

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

Come On!!! I don't mind the general idea that everyone is juicing, but you have to come up with a cogent hypothesis (at least) as to why one rider can "super juice".

Look no further than Armstrong as an example.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

Seeing his Nibs and the rest of Astana dominate like that was just embarrassing. Bouncing back like that after the disastrous start was not a miracle. Nibs was barely breathing as some old bloke smashed the field to bits on his behalf.

Come On!!! I don't mind the general idea that everyone is juicing, but you have to come up with a cogent hypothesis (at least) as to why one rider can "super juice".

Look no further than Armstrong as an example.

That was a really good response.

 

[Gigs_98]

I think some people here are overreacting. IMO his performance today wasnt impressive at all, at least for Nibali's standards and if he would have ridden against Froome/Quintana/Contador he would still have dropped.

However ofc I understand that people are suspicious because of his improvement, but (just like with Aru last year) it's not like Nibali was super weak for the whole giro and then he suddenly got a superb shape for the finale. I think Nibali was already at the same level as today and yesterday in the 2nd week but then only had 2 bad days. In the Corvara stage he climbed almost as good as Chaves and Kruijswijk and the difference of climbing performance on stage 14 between him and for example Valverde or Uran was way bigger than it was today. The thing is that Kruijswijk crashed which is the reason why he was worse than Nibali today and Chaves just got worse in the 3rd week. I didnt watch the stage but as far as I know he also couldn't follow an early move on stage 16 and this weekend he also showed that he wasnt at his best anymore since on Friday he was dropped by Nieve who didnt even ride for gc and was in the break for the whole day and today he was dropped by riders like Jungles, Majka an injured Kruijswijk and he finished together with Scarponi who set the pace for Chaves group for a very long time on the Lombarda.
What I want to say is that if Chaves and Kruijswijk would have performed on stage 14 as they did today they probably would have finished together with Valverde and everybody would talk about Nibali's heroic solo on the Valparola where he was way stronger than anyone else.

IMO the performance was suspicious but only because a gt win is always suspicious and not especially because of his recovery.