Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2023, March 20-26

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I should have seen before, but i only just noticed who is in the team car at QuickStep. Many things now make sense.

 

[Tonton]

I don't understand the criticism on Roglic. It's nothing new, that's what works for him, "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Primoz roglic-ed Remco today big time: 6 seconds in less than 40 meters. The hammer...

The Portuguese wolf had a pack today, well...Soler, he bit, and a podium spot behind the two dudes is a heck of a performance considering the field.

I missed the broadcast and hope that someone from Ineos crested Coll de Bot first .

Lenny was very strong today, like the GFC/FdJ riders at E3. That's nice for me to see, particularly for Martinez: second year pro, some successes last year, he needed that one to set himself up in '23.

Great race.

 

[noob]

Btw why does Cian's photo make him look like he is about 37 years old?

I noticed it too. Quite confusing. He's the youngest in the race or at least among the youngest but he looked the oldest in his pic

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I don't understand the criticism on Roglic. It's nothing new, that's what works for him, "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Primoz roglic-ed Remco today big time: 6 seconds in less than 40 meters. The hammer...

I didn't read too much criticism on Roglic today. It was Evenepoel/QuickStep who completely failed, and by that i mean tactically. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

[Extinction]

What was he supposed to do - spare Remco from paying for his stupid tactics and potentially lose the race to make Remco look better? If Rogla changed wheel in this situation where he is clearly the defending rider with a stronger sprint finish - well he would be knucklehead indeed.

Naturally, but that's not the point. Roglic doesn't take the initiative, but follows, at times won't pull through, to then capitalize on his mischief. It's the right tactic for him, but I can't root for such a racer. It's a matter of taste. There are those who love it, but not me.

 

[Tonton]

I didn't read too much criticism on Roglic today. It was Evenepoel/QuickStep who completely failed, and by that i mean tactically. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Maybe not much today, but it keeps coming back though...the "Roglic is a wheel sucker" thing is so unfair...what was Valverde? If you can keep up with your opponents and out-kick them to the line, good for you!

 

[bNator]

Naturally, but that's not the point. Roglic doesn't take the initiative, but follows, at times won't pull through, to then capitalize on his mischief. It's the right tactic for him, but I can't root for such a racer. It's a matter of taste. There are those who love it, but not me.

Sure - everyone’s free to prefer the style of their choosing. I would surely like if Rogla attacked more, like Remco and Pog for instance. It’s not so much in his nature, he really does lean more towards being efficient. But accusing him of being a wheelsucker (I don’t even remember now if it was you who claimed that) is I think recency bias. He took the initiative when he had to in the past - when the situation called for it. Last years Vuelta when he dropped Remco is one of these examples, 2021 Itzulia is another. But yeah, he does that way less often than the two gentlemen I mentioned and from shorter distance which is less attractive for spectators. Though I would argue he has another type of panache (stomp) which can be very entertaining for his fans.

That being said - today was an example when doing that would be a clear tactical error. He was brought the race to him by Remco on a silver platter and it’s hard accusing someone of not taking the initiative when his approach was clearly tactically correct.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Naturally, but that's not the point. Roglic doesn't take the initiative, but follows, at times won't pull through, to then capitalize on his mischief. It's the right tactic for him, but I can't root for such a racer. It's a matter of taste. There are those who love it, but not me.

Oddly enough, I generally agree with you. In my youth, I loved LA’s swagger and big attacks, then I loved Contador for throwing away the earpiece and blowing everyone to bits on Verbier, I respected Andy’s efforts in 2010, warmed to Froome in 2012 (temporarily) for mixing up the boring Tour, etc. For some reason, though, despite not naturally being drawn to smart defensive riding, I ended up a Dumoulin fan, I think due to his poopgate efforts. I was cheering for him in the 2020 Tour until I switched to Pogacar. It was only when he lost it in the ITT that something changed for me. Inexplicable really. But there’s some sort of quiet determination coupled with zen that resonates.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Maybe not much today, but it keeps coming back though...the "Roglic is a wheel sucker" thing is so unfair...what was Valverde? If you can keep up with your opponents and out-kick them to the line, good for you!

Maybe good for him but not necessarily for viewers. It's been discussed and i think that "wheelsucking" is ok in certain situations, but it is also a very unappealing and negative way of riding in other situations. Not riding because you have a teammate up the road, not riding because your leader is behind and is trying to come back, not riding because you simply are on the limit, not riding because you know the other rider is stronger/faster in the upcoming climb or sprint... that's all fine.

I noticed it too. Quite confusing. He's the youngest in the race or at least among the youngest but he looked the oldest in his pic

His excessive smiling has made his face wrinkly.

 

[Extinction]

Sure - everyone’s free to prefer the style of their choosing. I would surely like if Rogla attacked more, like Remco and Pog for instance. It’s not so much in his nature, he really does lean more towards being efficient. But accusing him of being a wheelsucker (I don’t even remember now if it was you who claimed that) is I think recency bias. He took the initiative when he had to in the past - when the situation called for it. Last years Vuelta when he dropped Remco is one of these examples, 2021 Itzulia is another. But yeah, he does that way less often than the two gentlemen I mentioned and from shorter distance which is less attractive for spectators. Though I would argue he has another type of panache (stomp) which can be very entertaining for his fans.

That being said - today was an example when doing that would be a clear tactical error. He was brought the race to him by Remco on a silver platter and it’s hard accusing someone of not taking the initiative when his approach was clearly tactically correct.

For the record, I didn't start the wheelsucker thing, but can't deny it's his modus operandi, despite deviations from the norm. It's just one of those things, you know? There's no rational explanation as to why I can't stand the way he races, but for every guy you root for, there must be an arch-nemesis to boo.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Maybe not much today, but it keeps coming back though...the "Roglic is a wheel sucker" thing is so unfair...what was Valverde? If you can keep up with your opponents and out-kick them to the line, good for you!

Exactly, everyone has their strengths and know what the other riders strengths are.

 

[Gratemans]

Oddly enough, I generally agree with you. In my youth, I loved LA’s swagger and big attacks, then I loved Contador for throwing away the earpiece and blowing everyone to bits on Verbier, I respected Andy’s efforts in 2010, warmed to Froome in 2012 (temporarily) for mixing up the boring Tour, etc. For some reason, though, despite not naturally being drawn to smart defensive riding, I ended up a Dumoulin fan, I think due to his poopgate efforts. I was cheering for him in the 2020 Tour until I switched to Pogacar. It was only when he lost it in the ITT that something changed for me. Inexplicable really. But there’s some sort of quiet determination coupled with zen that resonates.

Kind of the same here* I think Contador might just be my favourite (GC) rider ever. Everybody loves an attacking rider. I mean, who doesn't love Pogacar?
However, that doesn't mean I can't be a fan of riders deploying other tactics. Because of their innate capacities, some of them have no other choice but to ride like that. Valverde and Roglic both qualify for that I believe. It's also that I just like Roglic, he comes across as a nice guy. And I have a huge respect for his base level: it's just ridiculous how strong he always comes back from an injury. Often without much (or any) training as we saw this year.

* I never could stand LA though, I thought he was a *** from day 1. Not even because of clinic stuff in the first place, because I always loved our Kazach friend for example. It's just... man, he always rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Roglic is a wheelsucking negative rider. Remco was controlling when Soler came back, then totally misjudged the finish.

View: https://youtu.be/48H34ukFe8g

 

[Tonton]

Maybe good for him but not necessarily for viewers. It's been discussed and i think that "wheelsucking" is ok in certain situations, but it is also a very unappealing and negative way of riding in other situations. Not riding because you have a teammate up the road, not riding because your leader is behind and is trying to come back, not riding because you simply are on the limit, not riding because you know the other rider is stronger/faster in the upcoming climb or sprint... that's all fine.


His excessive smiling has made his face wrinkly.

If I'm Primoz, I don't care what viewers think, I want to win. Winning and panache, only Pog can do it. Remco? Roglic is taking care of him, Roglic is fine, thank you very much.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Naturally, but that's not the point. Roglic doesn't take the initiative, but follows, at times won't pull through, to then capitalize on his mischief. It's the right tactic for him, but I can't root for such a racer. It's a matter of taste. There are those who love it, but not me.

And then there is a minor detail involved. You being Evenepoel fan. That likely plays some role too. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Oldermanish]

No he did not. Every race is different. It was evident, in hindsight, that Remco should not have opened up the sprint.

That may have been his only play. He hasn't shown acceleration past any of the other finishers when it's been tight. This was a straightforward run in and my guess is he thought he had the legs to hold the effort all the way. He didn't. He blew. It happens and he'll save energy earlier and finish that sprint next time.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Congratulations to Primož Roglič on winning a very important stage in regards to GC standings.

QS and Evenepoel decided to make this stage as hard as possible on the final climb. On top of that some other teams joining in. 3 km into the climb and a lot of cyclists already struggled. At 5 km, half of the climb, Evenepoel already went solo. It's interesting that through the duration of the whole climb somebody was pulling hard. Teams at the bottom, Remco trying to put Primož into difficultly and to TT away, Soler attacking, Soler working for Almeida, Almeida attacking, Roglič testing the field ... It was brutal and no wonder records fell today. We could argue if Evenepoel made some tactical mistakes or not but the reality is he would have issues beating Roglič today regardless of the tactics used. Roglič was just better.

Two stages left and hopefully no crashes tomorrow. Tomorrow stage is what it looks like to end in a sprint. And on Sunday we can expect for Evenepoel to try. Maybe the duo sprinting again for the stage win. As that was the overall theme of this race.

 

[Andy schleck]

The wheelsucking by roglic today didn't matter too much. The climb was very step, so he didn't benefited from the draft. The most stronger rider won. You don't need to find "excuses" for remco. He did a great performance even if he lost by some seconds to roglic.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The wheelsucking by roglic today didn't matter too much. The climb was very step, so he didn't benefited from the draft. The most stronger rider won. You don't need to find "excuses" for remco. He did a great performance even if he lost by some seconds to roglic.

Most Evenepoel fans today have been critical of Evenepoel, but you keep playing the "excuses" card.

 

[Extinction]

That may have been his only play. He hasn't shown acceleration past any of the other finishers when it's been tight. This was a straightforward run in and my guess is he thought he had the legs to hold the effort all the way. He didn't. He blew. It happens and he'll save energy earlier and finish that sprint next time.

Right, he blew before the line, which means he started the sprint too soon, like I wrote. Roglic was playing cat and mouse, had lured Remco into a false sense of confidence based on their previous duel, when Primoz got beaten. However, on that occasion Roglic smartly just tried to follow, limiting the damage to only a couple of seconds.

I can understand why Remco tried, but there were a couple of factors that should have let Evenepoel know he was entering a trap. Firstly, unlike the previous MTF, Primoz actually gave it a couple of digs before the line, showing that his legs were better than before. Secondly, the arrival was on considerably steeper slopes, so you can't anticipate your rival by jumping too soon, precisely because you are likely to hit a wall before reaching the line, exactly as happened to Remco.

Thus, as I see it, Evenepoel erred of overzelousness and lacked lucidity. It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback I realize, but given Primoz's previous accelerations, Remco should have just marked Roglic's wheel and let the Slovenian open up the sprint a bit further ahead. Evenepoel still most likely would have lost, but he would not have blown before the line to lose more time than was necessary. It was the classic old chap out-foxing the young buck.

 

[Extinction]

And then there is a minor detail involved. You being Evenepoel fan. That likely plays some role too. Nothing wrong with that.

Actually, it's irrespective of that, as he simply is unappealing to me for the reasons explained.

 

[Extinction]

View: https://youtu.be/48H34ukFe8g

How drole, how very, very drole...

 

[Extinction]

Kind of the same here* I think Contador might just be my favourite (GC) rider ever. Everybody loves an attacking rider. I mean, who doesn't love Pogacar?
However, that doesn't mean I can't be a fan of riders deploying other tactics. Because of their innate capacities, some of them have no other choice but to ride like that. Valverde and Roglic both qualify for that I believe. It's also that I just like Roglic, he comes across as a nice guy. And I have a huge respect for his base level: it's just ridiculous how strong he always comes back from an injury. Often without much (or any) training as we saw this year.

* I never could stand LA though, I thought he was a *** from day 1. Not even because of clinic stuff in the first place, because I always loved our Kazach friend for example. It's just... man, he always rubbed me the wrong way.

I guess I'm just less generous towards those who rub me the wrong way with how they ride. But I realize there is no rational explanation for it, although fandom, and I'm talking about sport in general, implies a suspension of reason to some extent. There is no "reason," for example, why I should wish rider x to win and rider y to lose miserably, when personally I know neither. Perhaps rider y is a lovely chap, while rider x an unsupportable douchbag? Maybe they are both fine chaps, so why would I prefer one over the other?

On the other hand, I can think of one occasion that sealed my distaste for Roglic's modus operandi, which is a better version of Valverde's (who I never felt enthusiasm for, for basically the same reason) in the mountains; it's when he stomped that guy at the P-N, denying him what would have been more than a hard-earned victory, when Primoz didn't need the win, being as he was already in the race lead and having gained more time on his direct rivals. After that I simply had no sympathy for his cause, despite recognizing he admirably deals with the misfortunes that have befallen him, starting with crashing in that very P-N, irrevocably losing the lead. It's just one of those things.

 

[Oldermanish]

The wheelsucking by roglic today didn't matter too much. The climb was very step, so he didn't benefited from the draft. The most stronger rider won. You don't need to find "excuses" for remco. He did a great performance even if he lost by some seconds to roglic.

Why would you suggest wheelsucking, a derogatory term; played into Roglic's strategy? Sitting behind the 2nd place rival whose team is driving the finish with a minimal, points-based likely winning factor may be the only way to race. Thanks, DQS for the lead out.
Roglic put in a turn near the finish to stretch and inspire the compulsive element in the pack to be frisky since they may have though that's all he had to give.
They all bit on the bait and he showed he was a)Stronger b) Faster. There was little to no aerodynamic benefit to sitting behind anyone; in fact tactically it has proven to be a hindrance to picking a sprint line in some of these tight finishes.

I agree that there's no need to provide excuses for Remco. He's supremely talented and no doubt will realize he left his sprint 3km down the road....He's strong and will be tactically amazing as well at some point.

 

[Extinction]

Most Evenepoel fans today have been critical of Evenepoel, but you keep playing the "excuses" card.

Right, nobody is making excuses. He messed up the finish royally. That's not an excuse. It's a fact. Roglic, rather prophetically in hindsight, said the strongest and the fastest would win the stage. Strength wise I'd say they were pretty evenly matched, but Roglic found his best sprint while Remco basically, and stupidly, gave him the perfect leadout.