Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2023, stage 17: Ribadesella/Ribadeseya - Altu de l’Angliru, 124.4k

[mountainroad]

I would love to see Sepp win too (I'm a Durangan; I'm a professor at the same college where Sepp's dad used to teach and I take Nordic lessons from the center where his mom coaches and have my son in the same MTB development program that Sepp came up in as a kid) but this race situation isn't cut and dry to me, no matter my personal preferred outcome.

I agree with the previous poster who mentioned, and I recall this too, that *everybody* was pissed when Froome stayed with Wiggins in 2012, when it was obvious that he was able to ride away. I think that sometimes the difference between the expectation that the competitors should all be selfish steely-eyed killers looking out for numero uno at all costs, or gracious team players who repay debts and yield to courtesy and sensible team strategies, is just a matter of:

1. How well someone regards the particular rider

and/or

2. A contrarian attitude that always considers whatever thing that happened as the thing that should not have happened (and the thing that didn't happen as the thing that should have happened).

I get it. Barring disaster, J-V have 1-2-3 in the bag. Rog and Vin have won six Grand Tours between the two of them, *each* of which was contributed to through the deep, selfless labor of Kuss. Would it be so wrong for two of the most dominant Grand Tour riders on the planet to contribute to the success of the world's greatest superdomestique, who has given so, so much to them? It would be a real fairytale ending to a historic and unprecedented GT season for J-V, when Kuss helped Rog win the Giro, helped Vin win the Tour, and then the three of them went 1-2-3 on the Vuelta podium with Sepp on top. It would be remembered forever. People will remember J-V's dominance this year no matter who from their team wins it, but the fairytale will be a little bit less of a fairytale if Rog or Vin predictably finish on top.

On the other hand, the team did say that their strategy is to try and protect 1-2-3, with the winner being the person who gets to the finish first. There is nothing inherently wrong with that and I don't feel like I can criticize it.

I also agree with the perspective that Vin's race strategy seems to be "ride fast" and I'm similarly not convinced that one can read politics much deeper than that into it.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Remco gonna try and say something funny to Jumbo as they crusie by and ignore him

Probably whined about them chasing him down when he was just going for the stage win.

 

[jaylew]

The problem is with "the plan". Was that the plan at the Giro when Roglic had a bad day and Kuss saved him? It's only "the plan" when it's the reverse.

I hear you and I understand the sentimentality. I'm American as well and while I don't automatically cheer for riders just because they are American, Sepp is hard not to like, personality-wise.

It would be a great story for Sepp to win - no one can argue he doesn't seem like a really nice guy (even LS), he's worked his tail off for his leaders over the years, and this is his 3rd GT of the year. That said, he's a top domestique and is paid like one. Roglic and JV are paid to be the leaders and winners in stage races. It's like a blue chip prospect or top draft pick, they are going to be given every chance to win the job to keep them happy and because of the resources that have been invested in them. Sepp has had the chance to move on to a team where he could be the leader at GTs and he hasn't.

Now that all of them are so clear from the field and the Angliru is done maybe they race for Sepp. Maybe. Or maybe they tell them to race the final climbs all out which wouldn't affect the podium sweep. I'm fine with it either way, honestly.

 

[Fantastico]

Soler lost 18 minutes in the end.

Interestingly, three years ago he was 6th in GC before the Angliru stage only to lose 14 minutes and drop out of the top 10. I guess him and Angliru will not become friends anymore.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Professor Hinault has distinguished Roglic and Vingegaard as graduated summa cum laude at his course "Attack your teammate to help him win"

So you are still hopeful that Kuss will win, just as LeMond won that Tour?

 

[RedheadDane]

Interestingly, three years ago he was 6th in GC before the Angliru stage only to lose 14 minutes and drop out of the top 10. I guess him and Angliru will not become friends anymore.

Next time Angliru features, he'll only lose 10 minutes.

 

[Volderke]

Yes, Jumbo is horrible. If it was Remco or Pog, they would let their domestique win the GT.

If it were Wva, he would generously give away a semi-classic.

But I understand why roglic and Vingegaard want to win the Vuelta: this is a unique chance to win a GT against Remco Evenepoel before Remco gets super dominant in the next 10 years.
Like those guys that can say they won a GT in between 1968 and 1976 where Merckx showed up.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

If it were Wva, he would generously give away a semi-classic.

But I understand why roglic and Vingegaard want to win the Vuelta: this is a unique chance to win a GT against Remco Evenepoel before Remco gets super dominant in the next 10 years.
Like those guys that can say they won a GT in between 1968 and 1976 where Merckx showed up.

Nailed it!

 

[FrontHeadlock]

If it were Wva, he would generously give away a semi-classic.

But I understand why roglic and Vingegaard want to win the Vuelta: this is a unique chance to win a GT against Remco Evenepoel before Remco gets super dominant in the next 10 years.
Like those guys that can say they won a GT in between 1968 and 1976 where Merckx showed up.

Well, but it's also other things too:

Roglic is looking to tie the most Vuelta GC wins ever, and possibly get that record next year. He's also looking to win two Grand Tours in the same season.

Jonas is looking to win two Grand Tours in a season, but even more difficult a double with the TdF.

At this point, I think it's hard not to just tell all 3 to race. I love Sepp, but he has a stage win and 10 days in red. If you had told him before the race that he'd get that, a podium place AND that JV would win GC and sweep the podium, he'd be all in.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

So you are still hopeful that Kuss will win, just as LeMond won that Tour?

Except from Greg being far superior to Bernard in the end that year.

 

[mountainroad]

Also, I think people are overestimating the kinds of tactics that are possible on a climb like the Angliru. The tiniest miscalculations can turn into massive gaps. J-V *still* finished Angliru 1-2-3 and Kuss is *still* in red.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Pelayo Mayo finished 20th in the end. That's pretty good.

 

[GroupDK]

Sepp Kuss is not the best rider in this years Vuelta, so is he more deserving than the other two riders. I get the "helper gets his moment in the spotlight" narrative, but it's the third biggest stage race in the World, and as such not a race that should be "gifted". I still see it happen, though.
I agree that the way Jumbo is riding seems strange, and they probably should be better at communicating the plans the rest of the way.
Best thing from now on would be to forego stage wins and cruise slowly over the rest of the mountains, giving Sepp the win and a JV 1-2-3. Only change in that scenario would be an attack from Mas, Landa or Ayuso, where Sepp probably would be the first to react.

Both Roglic and Vingegaard seem profound about this weird situation, that a big group breakaway' that they as captains allowed Sepp to attend on stage6 - where Sepp got +3min.. completely tumbles all logic & planning' and who is the captain and the leader.. this is gonna be a warning for others. how messy things can go..
We have seen it again and again, now.. that Sepp is dropping.
Sepp is clearly not the strongest rider.. being dropped again and again.& again .. he would be almost 3 minutes down on his captain Vingegaard atm - if it wasn't for the group breakaway on stage6 and a +3.02 gain

It's a slippery road, that these lesser Grand Tours like Vuelta is now teammate gifts.. will hurt cycling even more. and make this Italia and Spain tour a joke..its sad to see how little mainstream attention these lesser tours get, - gifting scenarios like these are certainly not gonna help as it doesnt take a Phd to see that Sepp is far from the strongest guy here and getting dropped stage after stage, by both his captains, that seems way stronger..,

It should be the strongest & best rider over 3 weeks, - and not because of birthdays or some gift-aspect "thank you for being my teammate for a couple of years"

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Of course Sepp's job has been to help them out and keep them out of trouble, which he has done incredibly well at. It seems that this is not reciprocated. What evs

Not reciprocated, because their job in the team is not the same as Kuss's. Reciprocity depends on equal status, and that does not exist in cycling as a team sport.

Stage 13 of the 2021 Tour de France, one of Morkov and Cavendish was going to win that stage. Should Cavendish have stayed behind Morkov, although he was capable of beating him, because Morkov had been a loyal helper? Or should he have raced to the maximum of his ability to win, and thus equal a long standing record?
That is essentially the position that Roglic is in: he came to this race to try to equal the record number of wins. Anything less is not a success in his book. If that had become impossible, he might have taken on a helper role, but thus far it has not.

Vingegaard came to this race with the hope of becoming only the fourth man ever to win the Tour and the Vuelta in the same year: while that historic achievement is still a very realistic goal, he, like anyone else with even a modicum of competitive spirit, will attempt to do that. Anything less is not a success in his book. If that had become impossible, he might have taken on a helper role, but thus far it has not.

Racers will race, and winners with historic achievements at their fingertips will try to grab hold of them. If Kuss is a victim of that, then that is competition. And even within a team, there is competition: to get a contract for next year, to get selected for the next big race, to be nominated as the guy that the rest of the team are told to protect.

I'll feel sorry for him: it would have been a lovely story, but this is sport, not fairytale. My preferred outcome is not the criterion on which sporting success should be determined: performance is.

 

[staubsauger]

At this point Vingegaard should just win the petit double 25 years after Pantani won the big one!

Everything else would only be even more comical. If they gift Kuss the win now after showing they're better on Tourmalet & Angliru the whole Vuelta a Espana ends up being a farce.

 

[Extinction]

Good, turn all the anglos against Jonas/TJV

Of course the obvious difference, which was not stated, was that when Kuss saved Roglic he was doing so as a hired and paid domestique. But that's not the role of captains Rog and Vingo right now, who, as proven champions, have simply been told they can ride to win the Vuelta, so long as it doesn't jeapordize Jumbo winning the Vuelta. Yet, at this point, that's no longer really the issue. Jumbo shall win this Vuelta and most probably take the whole podium, which is why, rightly so, each is allowed to take his own chances. It's mind-boggling these anglo commentators don't get this very straightforward point.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Some of you defending Vingo/Roglic on here should enter the Olympics, with all the logical gymnastics you're doing trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
They're crap teammates who are in it only for themselves. At least just admit it.

Of course they are. Name an athlete at the top of their sport who is not.

 

[luckyboy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1701976490064134650

View: https://twitter.com/JumboVismaRoad/status/1701976490064134650

Niermann: "We couldn't hear Sepp and we didn't see anything because the television is really bad"

Somehow I don't think Jumbo-Visma's social media guy knows more about what Kuss was saying than the people in the team car.

 

[dobrien]

Well, but it's also other things too:

Roglic is looking to tie the most Vuelta GC wins ever, and possibly get that record next year. He's also looking to win two Grand Tours in the same season.

Jonas is looking to win two Grand Tours in a season, but even more difficult a double with the TdF.

At this point, I think it's hard not to just tell all 3 to race. I love Sepp, but he has a stage win and 10 days in red. If you had told him before the race that he'd get that, a podium place AND that JV would win GC and sweep the podium, he'd be all in.

Totally agree with this.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Niermann: "We couldn't hear Sepp and we didn't see anything because the television is really bad"

Somehow I don't think Jumbo-Visma's social media guy knows more about what Kuss was saying than the people in the team car.

That guy is probably a Vingegaard fan, meaning the quote was just fishful thinking.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Of course, the obvious difference which was not stated, was that when Kuss saved Roglic he was doing so as a hired and paid domestique. But that's not the role of captains Rog and Vingo right now, who as proven champions have simply been told as they can ride to win the Vuelta, so long as it doesn't jeapordize Jumbo winning the Vuelta. Yet, at this point, that's no longer really the issue. Jumbo shall win this Vuelta and most probably take the whole podium, which is why, rightly so, each is allowed to take his own chances. It's mind-boggling these anglo commentators don't get this very straightforward point.

They do get it, they're just blinded because the idea of selling Sepp as the underdog in an intra-Jumbo battle is the only story left in the Vuelta. I mean, it's hard to be the underdog when you're riding for a team that's riding roughshod over the race and destroying the mountain stages like this, but the wins that Sepp has compared to Rogla and Vingegaard mean that there is at least some kind of story there.

The other problem that they have is that Jumbo have managed to lose GCs by not controlling breaks before and giving the wrong rider time (Giro 2019), and by sitting in and trying to minimise effort to save energy for later, only to then afford others enough free energy to make them pay for it (Tour 2020), so they may be more wary of playing "defend Kuss' lead" in case the three GTs hit him and hit him hard, à la Simon Yates in the 2018 Giro or Tom Dumoulin in the 2015 Vuelta.

Rogla and Vingegaard may be scrapping over who is the one to pick up the pieces should Sepp falter... but they aren't about to not make gains just to keep Sepp protected, lest they themselves falter.

 

[Extinction]

Would it be so wrong for two of the most dominant Grand Tour riders on the planet to contribute to the success of the world's greatest superdomestique, who has given so, so much to them?

Not at all, were they further down on time and forced into a domestique role. That not being the case, they are allowed to race.

PS. I'd be happy were Kuss to win, but not if it was decided at the table. And I doubt even Kuss would want to win that way.

 

[ontheroad]

Sepp Kuss is not the best rider in this years Vuelta, so is he more deserving than the other two riders. I get the "helper gets his moment in the spotlight" narrative, but it's the third biggest stage race in the World, and as such not a race that should be "gifted". I still see it happen, though.
I agree that the way Jumbo is riding seems strange, and they probably should be better at communicating the plans the rest of the way.
Best thing from now on would be to forego stage wins and cruise slowly over the rest of the mountains, giving Sepp the win and a JV 1-2-3. Only change in that scenario would be an attack from Mas, Landa or Ayuso, where Sepp probably would be the first to react.

I do understand this rationale but then there will be an asterix beside his win. I hope they continue to race each other, it might upset the dynamics within Jumbo itself but its the most interesting part of this race remaining. Jumbo have killed the race for the other teams, is it too much to hope that they don't kill tomorrow and Saturdays viewing as well for spectators. And I say that as someone who would like to see Kuss winning at this stage but not to be simply gifted it.

 

[nightowl]

Kuss is gonna give Vingo The Look and then sail up the road to seal his Vuelta win

They gave Sepp The Look instead 😭

 

[Tim Cahill]

Sean Kelly on;

Vingegaard's interview: 'What a load of baloney, he knew what was happening on the mountain'.

Roglic's interview: 'He always just goes ya ya ya and doesn't really say anything'

He looks like he's about to lamp someone.

Blythe on Roglic: 'He doesn't have the decency or respect'