::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~::::

[Stingray34]

Alchemy ELF front, Ambrosio F20 rim, 28h1x, Sapim Laser
Alchemy ORC rear, Ambrosio F20 rim, 28h1xNDS, 3xDS, Sapim Laser NDS, Sapim Race DS, alloy nipples all around.

This set weighs approx 1275g, and plenty durable.

Whoa...sounds nice. I must find an excuse, and the funds, to go to Colorado to get some of these from you.

Mind if I still call you RDV4? He still has those wins, anyway. I like your new moniker and all, even if it does remind me of the Wings tune 'Magneto and Titanium Man.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTBukDar6vE

Not quite 'Hey Jude' is it?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Whoa...sounds nice. I must find an excuse, and the funds, to go to Colorado to get some of these from you.

Mind if I still call you RDV4? He still has those wins, anyway. I like your new moniker and all, even if it does remind me of the Wings tune 'Magneto and Titanium Man.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTBukDar6vE

Not quite 'Hey Jude' is it?

Well, you're going to have to wait a little bit on the F20 build, actually ran out last year. I just used it as an example of a sick climbing wheel. Matter of fact, many of my F20 builds went to CX'rs that used them for CX of course and hill climb heavy events, one was even built for a d-brake set up. Won't have any Ambrosio rims until late season, have a handful of Nemesis left but they're all built up and sold.

Get used to Giuseppe, RDV4ROUBAIX had a good run, but Italians do it better!!

 

[Stingray34]

Well, you're going to have to wait a little bit on the F20 build, actually ran out last year. I just used it as an example of a sick climbing wheel. Matter of fact, many of my F20 builds went to CX'rs that used them for CX of course and hill climb heavy events, one was even built for a d-brake set up. Won't have any Ambrosio rims until late season, have a handful of Nemesis left but they're all built up and sold.

Get used to Giuseppe, RDV4ROUBAIX had a good run, but Italians do it better!!

Ok by me...would you prefer Pepe or Pep?

Ambrosio seem to be the rim of choice. What's the diff between Nemesis and Excellence; what kind of use, rider characteristics are they suited to?

I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I read every single post you and Bustedknuckle write...so I'm sorry if I've forgotten bec I'm sure you've written about this before. My respect for you guys comes from wisely placing faith in very good wheel builders from 20+ years ago - a cyclist's life is very much in the hands of his or her wheelbuilder. And on a less dramatic note, a cyclist's day can be heaven or purgatory due to one broken spoke.

 

[Stu_artC]

20 front, radial
28 rear x 2
Fr hub 66
Rr Hub 222
4 Lasers (or CX-ray, same weight triple cost) @ 4.36 = 210
KOM's are 240g x 2 =520
12mm Alu nips .31 x 44 = 14
(add 30g for brass, you may get away with 24 rear, but then you would not use Lasers)

From Wheelbuilder.com, a mate of mine runs KOMs on Dash hubs for climbing wheels in races, those wheels weigh 1600g INCLUDING a Recon Cassette, skewers and Veloflex tyres (and the tyres are not that light)
Any complete wheelset including everything below 2000 is seriously light

Are the KOMs still made? I did a quick search and most sites are saying they are discontinued?
Are they under a new naming convention now from Reynolds? I noticed the Reynolds Thirty Two Rim is the same weight you are quoting?
I guess if the Reynolds Rim isn't around then the Ambrosio F20 build might be the way to go.

 

[Notso Swift]

I think Thirty-Two or MV32UL is what they are now, Reynolds changed a lot of the names when they upgraded the brake tracts
Basically it is their lowest profile carbon tub

They have 2 of each profile in tubs, a UL (Ultra Light) and a standard. I think there is an actual difference in the quality of the carbon, not just that they weigh less, because the cost goes up quite a bit for the weight saving, but then whats new with that!

BTW On the brakes
I had a big crash and had my front (I run the 46mm Assault T) replaced under the Reynolds RAP, so I have tried both. The brakes with the OEM pads were pretty good before, but now they are excellent, they disperse heat better on long descents
I am no sure who makes the Blue's but they work better that Swisstop yellows on these wheels, which is saying something. (probably they are made by someone like Swisstop with a fractionally different compound to specifically suit the rim)

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Ok by me...would you prefer Pepe or Pep?

Meh, neither of those work. At Velorooms they just type GM, easy enough.

Ambrosio seem to be the rim of choice. What's the diff between Nemesis and Excellence; what kind of use, rider characteristics are they suited to?

The rim of choice for me for 15 years or so. The Nemesis (tubular) and Excellence (clincher) I've dubbed "robusto" line from Ambrosio. Both are just slightly heavier than the norm, make for great everyday rims. Nemesis of course having more than half of the Roubaix wins in the last 20+ years. Excellence being my absolute favorite rim to build with for the majority of my career, and ridden daily. This is a better rim than a Mavic Open Pro, so is the Excellight, more in the Open Pro's weight class of 430g.

I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I read every single post you and Bustedknuckle write...so I'm sorry if I've forgotten bec I'm sure you've written about this before. My respect for you guys comes from wisely placing faith in very good wheel builders from 20+ years ago - a cyclist's life is very much in the hands of his or her wheelbuilder. And on a less dramatic note, a cyclist's day can be heaven or purgatory due to one broken spoke.

Aw shucks, I love you to Stingy! Had a short visit with Bustedknuckle at his shop today, always get this great feeling when I'm there, reminds me a lot of the shop I first worked at. Tons of experience, wheel-centric, and a hands on full-time owner, how a bike shop should be. One of the best! It's a freaking love fest!!!! Jerk!

 

[fatsprintking]

Hey GM, I know you have pretty strong opinions on hubs and stick to a few tried and true options, but I am considering a set of ambrossio zenith's in favour of miche racing box as my next training/rough road racing wheels. Have you had any experience with these hubs?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Hey GM, I know you have pretty strong opinions on hubs and stick to a few tried and true options, but I am considering a set of ambrossio zenith's in favour of miche racing box as my next training/rough road racing wheels. Have you had any experience with these hubs?

For all the years I've built with Ambrosio rims never once have I built up a Zenith set. All the hubs for Ambrosio complete wheels are made by Miche, even the cheaper ones, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Zenith was also Miche made. They make good hubs.

***UPDATE*** Just got off the horn with a wheel builder buddy, Zenith are made by Novatec, Taiwan. Not a bad hub, but I do prefer the Miche Racing Box, or Primato.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Meh, neither of those work. At Velorooms they just type GM, easy enough.



The rim of choice for me for 15 years or so. The Nemesis (tubular) and Excellence (clincher) I've dubbed "robusto" line from Ambrosio. Both are just slightly heavier than the norm, make for great everyday rims. Nemesis of course having more than half of the Roubaix wins in the last 20+ years. Excellence being my absolute favorite rim to build with for the majority of my career, and ridden daily. This is a better rim than a Mavic Open Pro, so is the Excellight, more in the Open Pro's weight class of 430g.



Aw shucks, I love you to Stingy! Had a short visit with Bustedknuckle at his shop today, always get this great feeling when I'm there, reminds me a lot of the shop I first worked at. Tons of experience, wheel-centric, and a hands on full-time owner, how a bike shop should be. One of the best! It's a freaking love fest!!!! Jerk!

Yep, calm down, not more hugs for you.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Yep, calm down, not more hugs for you.

No more nipple twisters either, I twist my own thank you....

 

[Benotti69]

Yep, calm down, not more hugs for you.

No more nipple twisters either, I twist my own thank you....

Get a room....

 

[Bespoke]

Sorry if this is in the wrong thread but it seems like the most appropriate place to ask:

Is there any reason not to buy a handbuilt wheelset as my only set, assuming that my riding conditions will be consistent for both training and longer rides (no racing or climbing), rather than spending twice: once on a training set and again on a "special set"?

Another way to ask the question would be: for a lightweight, newb, non-racer, will I derive benefit from a handbuilt set over an entry level set such as a Shimano R500?

Thanks.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Sorry if this is in the wrong thread but it seems like the most appropriate place to ask:

Is there any reason not to buy a handbuilt wheelset as my only set, assuming that my riding conditions will be consistent for both training and longer rides (no racing or climbing), rather than spending twice: once on a training set and again on a "special set"?

Another way to ask the question would be: for a lightweight, newb, non-racer, will I derive benefit from a handbuilt set over an entry level set such as a Shimano R500?

Thanks.

Yes, better hubset, wheels designed specifically for you and your needs(not for the marketeers and beancounters). It will use standard, not unique parts likes rims and spokes and hubs. It will weigh the same or less, be more reliable and probably cost less.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Sorry if this is in the wrong thread but it seems like the most appropriate place to ask:

Is there any reason not to buy a handbuilt wheelset as my only set, assuming that my riding conditions will be consistent for both training and longer rides (no racing or climbing), rather than spending twice: once on a training set and again on a "special set"?

Another way to ask the question would be: for a lightweight, newb, non-racer, will I derive benefit from a handbuilt set over an entry level set such as a Shimano R500?

Thanks.

Always! Custom hand built wheels from a reputable wheel builder isn't relegated to the most grizzled of cycling veterans with hundreds of thousands of miles logged, or for people with deep pockets. Going custom is a all encompassing service that takes all your variables into consideration to make the best wheel set for you.

If a cheap factory built wheel is made to look race it's more than likely not going to be the greatest everyday wheel set. This R500 set is 24h2x rear/20 radial front which is a race configuration, it's machine built with super low level parts. A custom set would have better parts, a better build, and best of all made specifically for you, not one-size-fits-all sort of mentality. Custom doesn't have to be expensive either, nor does it have to be subdued aesthetically.

 

[Bespoke]

Cool, thanks for the replies from the most grizzled of cycling veterans with hundreds of thousands of miles logged.

So, one set of handbuilts it shall be. And, for me, subdued aesthetic rules.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Cool, thanks for the replies from the most grizzled of cycling veterans with hundreds of thousands of miles logged.

So, one set of handbuilts it shall be. And, for me, subdued aesthetic rules.

Nice choice on the build! And aesthetically I couldn't agree with you more, but as you know there are plenty out there that need to look the part as well. Good to hear that a newb isn't caving in to the whole fashion aspect of the gear, which tells us you're getting into cycling for all the right reasons.

 

[JayKosta]

For the needs of "training and longer rides (no racing or climbing)".
I suggest durability as the first consideration.
Depending on your weight, make sure to get suitable rims and spoke count and lacing.
Aluminum rims with reinforced spoke holes (32 spokes), laced 3X, will give strong dependable long-lasting wheels, that aren't too heavy for your needs.
The use of 32 spokes laced 3X provides comfort and strength, and if a spoke does break, you'll still be able to ride home.
Radial front spokes give a harsher ride and trouble if one breaks. Similar with lower count spokes in the rear.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[Bespoke]

Thank you Jay. The wheel builder I spoke to was suggesting 32 x 2 for the front and 32 x 3 for the rear. Sounds close to your advice with the exception of the 2 x in the front. Good advice regarding the shortcomings of radial lacing from both you and Senor Magnetico.

Helped me with my decision not to go with the factory builts, even though the price was right.

 

[fatsprintking]

Thank you Jay. The wheel builder I spoke to was suggesting 32 x 2 for the front and 32 x 3 for the rear. Sounds close to your advice with the exception of the 2 x in the front. Good advice regarding the shortcomings of radial lacing from both you and Senor Magnetico.

Helped me with my decision not to go with the factory builts, even though the price was right.

With respect to your wheel builder, I am ot really sure there is any real advatage to you going 2x at the front, but there are some disadvantages. It's obviously up to you, but to be honest, people advise 32 x 3 for a reason in that it will give you a really strong and reliable wheel ad with the right combination of parts, ca be made both strog and light.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

There should be no reason to do a 2x pattern on a 32h wheel other than to correct spoke tangent (the angle at which the spoke leaves the hub) for an abnormally large flange hub. Have normal road hubs? Stick with 32h3x for both wheels.

 

[Bespoke]

Excellent, thanks! I will make sure it was, in fact, 32 front and rear and will ask appropriate questions/make suggestions. I do believe the reduced number of spokes were a way to cost weight on the set, in recognition of my weight (or lack thereof).

With respect to your wheel builder, I am ot really sure there is any real advatage to you going 2x at the front, but there are some disadvantages. It's obviously up to you, but to be honest, people advise 32 x 3 for a reason in that it will give you a really strong and reliable wheel ad with the right combination of parts, ca be made both strog and light.

There should be no reason to do a 2x pattern on a 32h wheel other than to correct spoke tangent (the angle at which the spoke leaves the hub) for an abnormally large flange hub. Have normal road hubs? Stick with 32h3x for both wheels.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Excellent, thanks! I will make sure it was, in fact, 32 front and rear and will ask appropriate questions/make suggestions. I do believe the reduced number of spokes were a way to cost weight on the set, in recognition of my weight (or lack thereof).

If you take into consideration the spoke length differences from 2 cross to 3 cross it amounts to 1 or 2 spokes, in weight.

 

[Bespoke]

If you take into consideration the spoke length differences from 2 cross to 3 cross it amounts to 1 or 2 spokes, in weight.

What are the advantages of 2 cross over 3 cross if this is the case, i.e. negligible weight savings? In other words, if 3 cross is better, as fatsprintking suggests, why would anyone lace 2 cross?

 

[fatsprintking]

What are the advantages of 2 cross over 3 cross if this is the case, i.e. negligible weight savings? In other words, if 3 cross is better, as fatsprintking suggests, why would anyone lace 2 cross?

Well it does make a "custom" wheel in that it is a little different. It is a little lighter and it gives you something to talk about.

In practice a rider would perhaps not notice a lot of difference for 95% of their riding between the two if they were a light weight, but you want your wheels to be able to cope with the the 5% of situations that push them to their limits and this is where the more robust wheel (3x) wins out. It just does not make sense to mess with this for the miniscule benifts of alternative lacing.

Both GM and Bustedknuckle have a lot more knowledge than me, but a low profile box section rim is still the best compromise for me for almost all my riding situations. I like ambrosio rims, for the reasons GM has outlined previously. Their reliability and toughness mean that I dont stress at all about 100 grams extra over the lightest rims. The interesting part of the equation should be the hubs (these will be the highest cost item in the build and the area where you can get 200g difference in weight- depends on how deep your pockets are), and then spoke and nipple choice.

I am big, and like sprints/power climbs. Where I train and race involves really rough roads and possible dirt. Even on my race wheels I run straight gauge 2mm spokes and brass nipples because I prioritise a stiff and solid wheel over 150-200g weight. I could perhaps get away with lighter spokes, but from a cost benefit point of view, what I have serves me really well and gives me peace of mind. You could get away with a really light wheel, but this does not mean that you should. The peace of mind and knowledge that you have a wheel that will cope with all situations is worth having

Also remember that tyre and tube choice and tyre pressure are huge factors in how a set of wheels feel. A great set of wheels can really have the edge taken off with the wrong tyres, and a great set of tyres can suffer from dodgey tubes. You have to look at the wheelset as a whole system.

Sorry thats a pretty long winded way of saying that there is not much advantage to 2x spokes and that you should be concentrating on other aspects of the custom build!!!!

 

[Bespoke]

Fantastic post! It's so easy to get caught up in the rolling weight "discussion" that the bigger picture can get lost.