When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[The Hitch]

Just finished catching up with today's final stage. Unbelievable that Kirby in commentary said that no one dares to dope today all because of Contador getting busted in 2010. That was part of his defence for Horner's win.

That was truly vomit inducing. He offered up 4 names- Horner, Froome, Wiggins and his beloved Evans as riders who "came to the fore" because cycling became clean.

Ignoring for a sec the hillarity of treating Cadel Evans as a rider that "came to the fore" after Contador's ban (he had 2 tour podiums, a Vuelta podium, a World championship and a Fleche Wallone in the 5 years before that, and was world number 1 rider in 2007,), I can't help but notice all the names Kirby gives are English.

If one wants to make a serious claim for clean gt riders emerging after Contador's ban, it may be wiser to offer names of riders that hadn't actually podiumed gts by then like Wiggins and Evans had. Joaquim Rodriguez, Juan Jose Cobo, Rigoberto Uran, even Hejsedal. Oh wait, with the exception of the last one they aren't english. Funny how kirby didnt mention those ones.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Winning a GT comes down to pharmceutical prep and Horner had the best chemicals.

That's as maybe, but it doesn't alter the fact that Nibs, Valverde and JRod weren't in peak form for the Vuelta this year given their prior efforts this season.

 

[sniper]

That was truly vomit inducing. He offered up 4 names- Horner, Froome, Wiggins and his beloved Evans as riders who "came to the fore" because cycling became clean.

Ignoring for the fact the hillarity between treating Cadel Evans as a rider that "came to the fore" after Contador's ban (he had 2 tour podiums, a Vuelta podium, a World championship and a Fleche Wallone) in the 5 years before that, and was world number 1 rider in 2007,, I can't help but notice all the names Kirby gives are English.

If one wants to make a serious claim for clean gt riders emerging after Contador's ban, it may be wiser to offer names of riders that hadn't actually podiumed gts by then like Wiggins and Evans had. Joaquim Rodriguez, Juan Jose Cobo, Rigoberto Uran, even Hejsedal. Oh wait, with the exception of the last one they aren't english. Funny how kirby didnt mention those ones.

incredible indeed.

they don't all have to go the ARD/ZDF way, but at least a bit of skepticism/precaution in the commentry box would be much appreciated and would also make sense in light of recent experiences.

are there any viewers who actually like the whool being pulled over their eyes as flagrantly as that?

 

[Von Mises]

That was truly vomit inducing. He offered up 4 names- Horner, Froome, Wiggins and his beloved Evans as riders who "came to the fore" because cycling became clean.

Ignoring for the fact the hillarity between treating Cadel Evans as a rider that "came to the fore" after Contador's ban (he had 2 tour podiums, a Vuelta podium, a World championship and a Fleche Wallone) in the 5 years before that, and was world number 1 rider in 2007,, I can't help but notice all the names Kirby gives are English.

If one wants to make a serious claim for clean gt riders emerging after Contador's ban, it may be wiser to offer names of riders that hadn't actually podiumed gts by then like Wiggins and Evans had. Joaquim Rodriguez, Juan Jose Cobo, Rigoberto Uran, even Hejsedal. Oh wait, with the exception of the last one they aren't english. Funny how kirby didnt mention those ones.

If remember correctly it was said "squeky clean winners Evans, Wiggins and i personally think Froome." it sounded stupid anyway.

 

[B_Ugli]

You can analyse this incident one of many ways with various theories but the bottom line is that whatever way you look at it the end outcome amidst the confusion is the same-the athlete walked without being tested.

The only consolation in all this is that Horner is still very much under scrutiny but yet again it calls into question where Spain sits in its anti-doping. Personally I would like to see Spanish athletes excluded from World Championships/Olympics until such time as they tidy up their testing within Spain as it still seems to be a free for all for those looking to enhance their performance. As a country they seem to be sanctionless in this regard.

 

[Ferminal]

Sorry, WTF does Horner have to do with Spain?

 

[ruamruam]

Sorry, WTF does Horner have to do with Spain?

Was thinking that myself but when it doubt blame the Spanish.

 

[Scott SoCal]

why are radioshack giving false weight indications for horner?


http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/analysis-pro-cycling-remains-a-faith-game_303005

quite a transparent attempt by radioshack to smother what they know are perfectly legitimate doping accusations.

You don't know they are false. That's a problem.

 

[Lukenwolf]

Reading the posts of some of the cynics in here, I wonder why you guys bother to watch a cycling race in the first place.

1. Re: Horners performance.
I've said it before - this years Vuelta did not have a high quality field - Roche could keep up in the mountains for crying out loud, so it wasn't exactly riding at neckbreaking speed. Except for Horner, most of the Top 10 have a long season in the legs, while the old man came in relatively fresh. As someone wrote before - this years Vuelta was a penalty kick without a goalkeeper for lesser riders. Horner used the chance.

2. The testing mix up
So, Horner decides after sealing the win on the penultimate day, that some quite time with the missus is preferrable over staying at a crummy hotel with a room mate. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. He books a new room in a different hotel and sends an Email to USADA a full 20 hours in advance. He obviously did everything he was supposed to do. And for those, who say 'but it was a Sunday, yap,yap,yap,bark!' - If they require the riders to update them about every day of their life, they bloody well have to make sure that the update emails are not left to rot for an entire day. All it takes is for USADA to have someone on on-call duty. Login to the system via VPN from home and check the bloody email once an hour. The screw-up was clearly done by USADA, not Horner and IIRC USADA admitted as much.

It's always prudent to keep a bit of scepticism given cyclings recent history, but crying Wolf everytime someone puts in a good performance kills the sport just as much as the dopists.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Reading the posts of some of the cynics in here, I wonder why you guys bother to watch a cycling race in the first place.

1. Re: Horners performance.
I've said it before - this years Vuelta did not have a high quality field - Roche could keep up in the mountains for crying out loud, so it wasn't exactly riding at neckbreaking speed. Except for Horner, most of the Top 10 have a long season in the legs, while the old man came in relatively fresh. As someone wrote before - this years Vuelta was a penalty kick without a goalkeeper for lesser riders. Horner used the chance.

2. The testing mix up
So, Horner decides after sealing the win on the penultimate day, that some quite time with the missus is preferrable over staying at a crummy hotel with a room mate. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. He books a new room in a different hotel and sends an Email to USADA a full 20 hours in advance. He obviously did everything he was supposed to do. And for those, who say 'but it was a Sunday, yap,yap,yap,bark!' - If they require the riders to update them about every day of their life, they bloody well have to make sure that the update emails are not left to rot for an entire day. All it takes is for USADA to have someone on on-call duty. Login to the system via VPN from home and check the bloody email once an hour. The screw-up was clearly done by USADA, not Horner and IIRC USADA admitted as much.

It's always prudent to keep a bit of scepticism given cyclings recent history, but crying Wolf everytime someone puts in a good performance kills the sport just as much as the dopists.

Isn't it obvious that we hate cycling.

 

[hrotha]

1. Re: Horners performance.
I've said it before - this years Vuelta did not have a high quality field - Roche could keep up in the mountains for crying out loud, so it wasn't exactly riding at neckbreaking speed.

Roche finished 7 minutes down. He hardly kept up.
The quality of the field doesn't matter much when you're putting out watt numbers comparable to Froome's at the Tour.

 

[pastronef]

Can I make a suggestion?

Why not check the weigh of the riders, like they do the bikes?
Can't take long, either before or after stage.
Needn't be more than a couple of times a GT.

Surely that independent data would make the analysis of power data / climbing speed more believable?

Weight loss seems to be the current (and yes, I know its not new) holy grail for improving performance in GTs: lets get the raw data in before we try to work out if its done legitimately/believably or suspiciously

I was reading all the suggestions and hypothesis

riders weight, screenshots of email, hotel reservation dates...

and this "All it takes is for USADA to have someone on on-call duty. Login to the system via VPN from home and check the bloody email once an hour"

you know what? we will never find the end

every race and climb and time and attack and riding style of every rider has been analized and compared etc etc
it's getting tiring

as someone wrote somewhere on the clinic: if already junior teams DS's gather around a table to talk about what riders can take and be on the limit...

 

[webbie146]

Roche finished 7 minutes down. He hardly kept up.
The quality of the field doesn't matter much when you're putting out watt numbers comparable to Froome's at the Tour.

True just look at the numbers he put out, not at the riders he rode against. The numbers tell everything.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

The quality of the field doesn't matter much when you're putting out watt numbers comparable to Froome's at the Tour.

I think your "when" might need to be an "if".

Jrod was a similar time down on both Froome and Horner. Valverde was a couple of minutes closer to Horner than he was to Froome, after adjusting for his time-loss in the echelons in the Tour.

Thus, if Horner is producing the same watts (per kg) as Froome then JRod and Valverde must be producing similar power and higher absolute power respectively in the Vuelta than in the Tour overall. This does seem unlikely, given the amount of recovery that could be undertaken between the two.

Therefore, it seem highly unlikely that Horner is producing consistently the same performance level as Froome.

 

[hrotha]

I think your "when" might need to be an "if".

[...]

Therefore, it seem highly unlikely that Horner is producing consistently the same performance level as Froome.

And yet...
https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/379580236934832128

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

And yet...
https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/379580236934832128

Thanks. That's interesting.

This actually means the most unbelievable aspect of the Vuelta is that JRod and Valverde appear to have completely recovered and indeed progressed from the Tour.

 

[Fatclimber]

Reading the posts of some of the cynics in here, I wonder why you guys bother to watch a cycling race in the first place.

1. Re: Horners performance.
I've said it before - this years Vuelta did not have a high quality field - Roche could keep up in the mountains for crying out loud, so it wasn't exactly riding at neckbreaking speed. Except for Horner, most of the Top 10 have a long season in the legs, while the old man came in relatively fresh. As someone wrote before - this years Vuelta was a penalty kick without a goalkeeper for lesser riders. Horner used the chance.

.....

It's always prudent to keep a bit of scepticism given cyclings recent history, but crying Wolf everytime someone puts in a good performance kills the sport just as much as the dopists.

So what do you call 'breakneck speed' and 'keeping up?' Horner had the second fastest ascent up the Angliru ever while Roche was over 3 minutes back. I'd argue the opposite on both points.

As you pointed out, it's not like the skepticism is unfounded. Some of us skeptics can't bring ourselves to watch this bull**** but are hopeful for a clean peloton someday because there is so much potential for something great.

 

[Lukenwolf]

So what do you call 'breakneck speed' and 'keeping up?' Horner had the second fastest ascent up the Angliru ever while Roche was over 3 minutes back. I'd argue the opposite on both points.

So what does that say? How long was the stage before the other ascents you're comparing it with, how were they ridden (Hard/relaxed), how were weather and wind conditions in comparison to this year.
Juan Pablo Montoya is still the fastest Formula One driver that ever lived. But his record lap at Monza was driven in a car that reved up to 20K and had a V10 engine as opposed to the V8's these days. You can't make observations based on a time and then completely ignore the circumstances.

 

[Fatclimber]

So what does that say? How long was the stage before the other ascents you're comparing it with, how were they ridden (Hard/relaxed), how were weather and wind conditions in comparison to this year.
Juan Pablo Montoya is still the fastest Formula One driver that ever lived. But his record lap at Monza was driven in a car that reved up to 20K and had a V10 engine as opposed to the V8's these days. You can't make observations based on a time and then completely ignore the circumstances.

Yes there are plenty of factors that need to be considered when comparing climbs from different years, most notably the riders and era he beat:

José Maria Jiménez
Gilberto Simoni
Roberto Heras
Alberto Contador
Juan José Cobo

Your Formula 1 comparison is very appropriate. How likely is it that a smaller V8 could best a supercharges V10?

 

[Scatto]

The hotel looks nice. Nice and modern, probably really quiet.

It's a business hotel. NOT the place where you'd go for a charming end of a victorious journey to Spain. Also, if you have a view on the parking lot, you can see the control doctors coming 10 minutes before they knock on your door. They should dig deeper into his/her motives for taking this particular hotel, because it makes as much sense as ordering Spanish beef when visiting French cuisine. Also, if you need a quick ride to the airport, why take a hotel on the wrong side of town? Admittedly, the only reason for this hotel is that it's next to the highway.

 

[pastronef]

It's a business hotel. NOT the place where you'd go for a charming end of a victorious journey to Spain. Also, if you have a view on the parking lot, you can see the control doctors coming 10 minutes before they knock on your door. They should dig deeper into his/her motives for taking this particular hotel, because it makes as much sense as ordering Spanish beef when visiting French cuisine. Also, if you need a quick ride to the airport, why take a hotel on the wrong side of town? Admittedly, the only reason for this hotel is that it's next to the highway.

maybe Madrid hotels were already fully booked on Suday evening (a GT is finishing in town...) so a late reservation was only possible in a hotel out of town.

oh sorry, after the mail screenshots and riders weight, now we talk about parking lots and hotel average reservation % ...

no end of the tunnel in sight still...

 

[B_Ugli]

Sorry, WTF does Horner have to do with Spain?

If USADA had full confidence in the Spanish testing procedures during the race then they wouldn't need to send in testers after the race had finished to collect samples for their own analysis.

Puerto, Political Interference in Contador case, Del Moral, Marti...shall I go on?

 

[sniper]

Sorry, WTF does Horner have to do with Spain?

tbh, i was hardly surprised to hear spanish anti-doping authorities screwed this one up.

remember the chaperone issue at la vuelta one or two years back?

 

[hrotha]

How did the AEA screw up? By leaking the info, I suppose, if it was them who did it, but I suspect that's not what you guys are getting at.

 

[Ferminal]

If USADA had full confidence in the Spanish testing procedures during the race then they wouldn't need to send in testers after the race had finished to collect samples for their own analysis.

The UCI conduct tests during the race...

Any samples collected by the AEA would have been analysed in Madrid...