Who was the 1st true, through EPO and/or blood transfusion enhanced TdF-Winner

[Benotti69]

i don't think you can compare the boost those guys got in the 70's and in the 80's from their bags with the boost of nowadays.even with the so called bio passport in action.

lemond is a very jealous guy and he probably lies a little bit himself about his preparation, hormone rebalancing and other things for staying healthy in a grand tour (sorry lemond hardcore fans) but personally yes i think both him and proffesor fignon could have beaten riders who would blood dope back then. those guys still climbed at brick level with all the blood doping (rooks and theunisse 44-45 minutes alpe...in 2013 they would do under 40)

there is no way in hell though that lemond and fignon would have stand a chance in today's peloton in a grand tour. they'd get slaughtered. 15 minutes back afte the vosges

Yep, the peloton still juicing to the max possible for their GT teams.

 

[Netserk]

It's not whether or not your opposition dopes, but the level of your own performance that indicates the probability of dope.

 

[icefire]

Not surprised to see Indurain leading the poll. But Bugno won the Giro one year before Indurain won his first Tour, which makes the choice of restricting the poll to Tour winners somewhat wrong.

 

[D-Queued]

Not surprised to see Indurain leading the poll. But Bugno won the Giro one year before Indurain won his first Tour, which makes the choice of restricting the poll to Tour winners somewhat wrong.

But a fully doped Bugno couldn't touch Indurain. At least not at the Tour.

199"2" was the year of the double double, though.

Indurain in the Tour, Bugno at the World's.

2x World Champ?

Travesty.

Dave.

 

[gillan1969]

You know what is getting more stupid about this thread, we have people now stating that blood doping was likely quite widespread in the 80s yet they willingly believe that LeMond was beating guys who were blood doping.

These are the same people who would laugh if it were suggested that a current clean rider could beat a rider blood doping even with the BP restrictions that were not in place in the 80s.

I think we need a new rule or something called the 'LeMond exception' rule or something.

even were it true then you are missing why there is a laugh...and it is not that a genetically gifted rider might be able to beat doped riders....

its because....

froome used to be crap at GTs
Wiggins used to be crap at GTs
Hesjadel used to take epo
Horner is...eh...42

compare and contrast with the winner of L'Avenir by over 10 mins

and of course widespread blood doping was probably not happening in the 80's and little in the way of evidence supports that theory

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

but personally yes i think both him and proffesor fignon could have beaten riders who would blood dope back then. those guys still climbed at brick level with all the blood doping (rooks and theunisse 44-45 minutes alpe...in 2013 they would do under 40)

But we don´t know if they also did blood doping. Logic tells me they might have too. I mean if PDM did it, why not Renault with a bigger budget and a very dominating team like Sky or Postal.
As i see in the articles linked here, the doping-science was very sophisticated even back then. I didn´t know that.
And we all shall remember, confessions come only inch by inch. The riders only confess what´s already out there or at least rumored (see Zabel, Ullrich, Rooks, Rijs; the great exception is TH, who really told it all). So if nobody wrote about transfusions in the tell all books, that doesn´t mean that they didn´t do it. I think many riders wanna safe at least a little face even if they are out of business for a long time.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

But we don´t know if they also did blood doping. Logic tells me they might have too. I mean if PDM did it, why not Renault with a bigger budget and a very dominating team like Sky or Postal.
As i see in the articles linked here, the doping-science was very sophisticated even back then. I didn´t know that.
And we all shall remember, confessions come only inch by inch. The riders only confess what´s already out there or at least rumored (see Zabel, Ullrich, Rooks, Rijs; the great exception is TH, who really told it all). So if nobody wrote about transfusions in the tell all books, that doesn´t mean that they didn´t do it. I think many riders wanna safe at least a little face even if they are out of business for a long time.

Pretty poor logic.

How come Zoetemelk didnt win that 1976 Tour with two/three transfusions? The years after it is pretty well known Bernard Thevenet won those Tours on cortico's - i believe, correct me if i am wrong -, do you reallly think cortico's can match bloodbags? Multiple of them?

Yes, the tech was there. I just dont believe it was mass used.

Edit: I also believe a relative clean athlete can beat a blooddoper.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

How come Zoetemelk didnt win that 1976 Tour with two/three transfusions?

B/C he was really sick. I mean I do not believe anyone from "deathbed" could jump on a bike and then win the TdF. With or without transfusions.
But I do believe healthy riders w/o anaemia could gain that 3-4% TH described. Let it be 2% in the 80s, that makes you from also-ran to strong contender.

do you reallly think cortico's can match bloodbags? Multiple of them?

Not at all... But who says that Thévenet "only" used corticos?

Yes, the tech was there. I just dont believe it was mass used.
Edit: I also believe a relative clean athlete can beat a blooddoper.

That is ok. No problem with that. I just believe the opposite. I really don´t think a clean rider can beat a blood boosted TdF contender like for example Rooks. I mean he wasn´t a donkey at all even w/o extra blood....

 

[pmcg76]

Would also like to point out that in the 1991 Tour, Indurain beat LeMond in a 73km TT by 8 seconds!!!

Also after 3 weeks, Indurain beat LeMond in a 53km TT by 28 secs.

Remember this was a good TT rider(Indurain) supposedly on EPO versus a totally clean LeMond, (No corticosteroids, nada)

How many people here believe that a totally clean rider in the current era could stay within 8 seconds of a blood-doping rider over a 73km TT???

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

That is ok. No problem with that. I just believe the opposite. I really don´t think a clean rider can beat a blood boosted TdF contender like for example Rooks. I mean he wasn´t a donkey at all even w/o extra blood....

Too bad we dont know what the exact content of that 'zakje bloed' was. Thing with Rooks and Theunisse is they couldnt time trial so they were never contenders.

Would also like to point out that in the 1991 Tour, Indurain beat LeMond in a 73km TT by 8 seconds!!!

Also after 3 weeks, Indurain beat LeMond in a 53km TT by 28 secs.

Remember this was a good TT rider(Indurain) supposedly on EPO versus a totally clean LeMond, (No corticosteroids, nada)

How many people here believe that a totally clean rider in the current era could stay within 8 seconds of a blood-doping rider over a 73km TT???

Lets take other results for a good comparison. Tour de France 1989

06-07-1989
5e etappe
Distance: 79 km
1. Greg LeMond en 1h38'12"(/Moy : 44.602 km/h/)
2. Delgado à 24"
12. Indurain à 3'32"
14. Mottet à 3'43"

Yes, LeMond had the tri bars there but what was Delgado on there? He did not have the tri bars there. No tri bars for Indurain there. Three minutes down on LeMond due to not having tri bars? Nah.

16-07-1989
15e etappe
Distance: 42 km

1. Steven Rooks en 1h10'42" (/Moy : 33.097 km/h/)
2. Lejarreta à 24"
3. Indurain à 43"
4. Delgado à 49"
5. LeMond à 57"

23-07-1989
21e etappe
Distance: 27 km

1. Greg LeMond en 26'57" (/Moy : 54.545 km/h/)
2. Marie à 33"
17. Indurain à 1'39"

12-07-1990
12e etappe
Distance: 33.5 km

1. Erik Breukink en 56'52" (/Moy : 35.345 km/h/)
2. Delgado à 30"
3. M.Indurain à 43"
4. Lejarreta à 54"
5. LeMond à 56"

21-07-1990
20e etappe
Distance: 45.5 km
1. Eric Breukink en 1h02'40" (/Moy : 44.270 km/h/)
2. Alcala à 28"
3. Lejarreta à 38"
4. M.Indurain à 40"
5. LeMond à 57"

That is a lot of improvement in one years time.

To the bold part.
Yes, I do think so. But, not day after day after day.

And, I do think 1991 was relatively 'soft EPO' time. Even in 1993 Alvaro Mejia made the top four. Of course he had no chance of winning because he lost 8 minutes in the TT's but he could follow in the mountains. Okay, the rest of the top was packed with EPO mules but it looks to me the true EPO race - with hematocrits in the high fifties - began the year after.

So, to the LeMond versus Indurain comparison, could it be LeMond was on his normal level versus a pumped up rider? Also look at the results of Charly Mottet for that matter.

 

[coinneach]

Bore de France, Bore de France, always Bore de France...

CN forum is constantly hitting the bottom and keeps digging ... as if doping on other races does not count.

What a crap forum !

Actually, I found this one of the more enlightening threads....where posters can unite, rather than pick holes in eachother.
(Mind you, I voted for Riis: shows you how much I know about it!)

 

[jens_attacks]

Would also like to point out that in the 1991 Tour, Indurain beat LeMond in a 73km TT by 8 seconds!!!

Also after 3 weeks, Indurain beat LeMond in a 53km TT by 28 secs.

Remember this was a good TT rider(Indurain) supposedly on EPO versus a totally clean LeMond, (No corticosteroids, nada)

How many people here believe that a totally clean rider in the current era could stay within 8 seconds of a blood-doping rider over a 73km TT???

your example is not correct i think...actually i'm almost sure of it
i really doubt that 1991 indurain was on jet fuel.that or it didn't work at all. unfortunately ,the so called start of epo era is sometimes put after alpe d'huez '91 because of a wrong ascent time(it wasn't under 40 minutes!)


indurain, just like lemond was one of the most gifted athletes in cycling's history. it's not mentioned enough it seems


still... the 1992 luxembourg itt was something else...


1 Miguel Indurain (Banesto) ESP 1h 19' 31
2 Armand De Las Cuevas (Banesto) FRA + 03' 00
3 Gianni Bugno (Gatorade - Chateaux d'Ax) ITA + 03' 41
4 Zenon Jaskula (GB - MG Maglificio - Bianchi) POL + 03' 47
5 Greg Lemond (Z - Lemond) E-U + 04' 04
6 Pascal Lino (R.M.O. - Mavic - Onet) FRA + 04' 06
7 Stephen Roche (Carrera Jeans) IRL + 04' 10
8 Arturas Kasputis (Ryalco - Postobon - Manzana) LTU + 04' 26
9 Alex Zülle (O.N.C.E.) SUI + 04' 29
10 Pedro Delgado Robledo (Banesto) ESP + 04' 52


check the comments of the other contenders after indurain's ride:

bugno:"indurain is from another planet. he's an alien"

lemond:"did you see his time?how could he do something like this? i don't understand how he put 4 minutes into us"



it's not only my opinion but also lots of people's too including vayer, portoleau and others that the first bionic indurain version was 1992 luxembourg, "l'extraterestre". the sestriere came and so son


and just like fignon said in his book, i don't believe that any of the guys who were riding mouth closed after him in 1993 ,after his telegraphe attacks,serre chevalier stage were not on epo.

1993 tour is already a tour where you couldn't compete in the mountains front group without it imo

i don't believe for one second that mejia followed them uphill without tailwind in the veins on the mountains. even if he says he didn't. same for millar and hampsten.

 

[Taxus4a]

i don't believe for one second that mejia followed them uphill without tailwind in the veins on the mountains. even if he says he didn't. same for millar and hampsten.

Hampstein was clean. He was a really talented climber. EPO was his finish.

 

[D-Queued]

Would also like to point out that in the 1991 Tour, Indurain beat LeMond in a 73km TT by 8 seconds!!!

Also after 3 weeks, Indurain beat LeMond in a 53km TT by 28 secs.

Remember this was a good TT rider(Indurain) supposedly on EPO versus a totally clean LeMond, (No corticosteroids, nada)

How many people here believe that a totally clean rider in the current era could stay within 8 seconds of a blood-doping rider over a 73km TT???

Add me to the list of believers.

BTW - Indurain was likely using EPO and not blood doping.

1. LeMond was in the best fitness of his life
2. EPO was new, and folks were just getting dialed in
3. There was (likely) no blood doping to enhance it
4. Indurain was also new to the GC leader role, and could have been holding a little back
5. Indurain had already overcome minutes of deficit based upon previous results to be that close to LeMond
6. As noted above, Indurain later put 4 minutes into Greg and really demonstrated what it is like to be fully dialed in

Dave.

 

[jens_attacks]

Hampstein was clean. He was a really talented climber. EPO was his finish.

possible

epo at his beginning, not yet Il Mito there to put lots of iron with it and all kind of specific trainings and other magical combos to make it really kerosene. to make it untouchable like gewiss '94 spring

possible


but i still don't believe it

 

[poupou]

Would also like to point out that in the 1991 Tour, Indurain beat LeMond in a 73km TT by 8 seconds!!!

Also after 3 weeks, Indurain beat LeMond in a 53km TT by 28 secs.

Remember this was a good TT rider(Indurain) supposedly on EPO versus a totally clean LeMond, (No corticosteroids, nada)

How many people here believe that a totally clean rider in the current era could stay within 8 seconds of a blood-doping rider over a 73km TT???

Blood doping (transfusion or/and blood doping) has not been a off/on change on performance. Like all other technics, there is progression and learning how to use it ptoperly and efficiently. Moreover, for EPO I suppose that in 91, 92, it was expensive and not easy to get a lot of it.

 

[Taxus4a]

It depends in wich weeks is the ITT, but a true champion could win easily to an EPO rider. A time ago I didnt believe this, but now I know that is possible.
I think that now just a few riders with EPO could win Tony Martin a 70 km ITT, Schumacher shows that he was one when he won the ITTS of the 2008 Tour, but I dont believe a lot of more.. EPO is a good advantage, but not so big if you are a true champion.

 

[jens_attacks]

I think that now just a few riders with EPO could win Tony Martin a 70 km ITT,

tony martin with or without epo? which one?

 

[Taxus4a]

tony martin with or without epo? which one?

If Tony Martin is clean and othr riders with EPO.

Or you believe that Cancellara was with EPO when Schumacher won him? Maybe you think different amount, different susbtances, different effect in every person...It could be, but I dont believe for several reasons.

It wanst the best Cancellara anyway.

1. Stefan Schumacher (Ger) Gerolsteiner 29.5km in 35m 44sec
2. Kim Kirchen (Lux) Columbia at 18secs
3. David Millar (GB) Garmin-Chipotle at 18secs
4. Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto at 27secs
5. Fabian Cancellara (Swi) CSC-Saxo Bank at 33secs
6. Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank at 34secs
7. Jens Voigt (Ger) CSC-Saxo Bank 35secs
8. Christian Vande Velde (USA) Garmin-Chipotle at 37secs
9. George Hincapie (USA) Columbia at 41secs
10. Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas at 47secs

In then second

1 Schumacher 1h 03:50 Gerolsteiner
2 Cancellara 21 CSC
3 Kirchen 1:01 Columbia

 

[jens_attacks]

i just see ten guys fighting with the same arms

 

[Taxus4a]

i just see ten guys fighting with the same arms

I dont see that, by far...

 

[poupou]

It depends in wich weeks is the ITT, but a true champion could win easily to an EPO rider. A time ago I didnt believe this, but now I know that is possible.
I think that now just a few riders with EPO could win Tony Martin a 70 km ITT, Schumacher shows that he was one when he won the ITTS of the 2008 Tour, but I dont believe a lot of more.. EPO is a good advantage, but not so big if you are a true champion.

Like those EPO guys who have destroyed Fignon or Lemond,...

 

[GuyIncognito]

Or you believe that Cancellara was with EPO when Schumacher won him?

It was 3 days after Cancellara did 6w/kg over the Croix-de-Fer
If he wasn't on EPO i'm lance armstrong

 

[Taxus4a]

Like those EPO guys who have destroyed Fignon or Lemond,...

Who EPO guys destroyed Fignon?
Fignon used other things anyway, but that is another doping

 

[Taxus4a]

It was 3 days after Cancellara did 6w/kg over the Croix-de-Fer
If he wasn't on EPO i'm lance armstrong

Froome was there with very good legs after Cancellara stopped, in his beginins and first Grand Tour, so if Froome is a guy that came from nowhere and didnt anything before Vuelta 2011 I dont understand that Cancellara was so impressive that day...

Where do you take the data 6 w/kg from him in that climb?