Wigans goes there. Cadence!

[samhocking]

Not just Salbutomol, but Formetemol, Salmeterol & Budesenoid at typical doses found in Wiggins TUEs would not require a TUE today so many fewer TUEs required to be issued if you use Wiggins as an example of reduced TUEs being issued since 2010.

Wiggins timings for using a 40mg Triamcinolone acetonide injection would have to be near his main objective of the year, because the adrenal suppression gradually returns to normal in 30 days but triamcinolone acetonide's main side effect is it leaves you very open to infection as it suppresses your immune system, so you can only use it once per year really to treat hayfever unless you want to be sick all year. In the UK the NHS no longer prescribes it via injection because it was decided the side effects were too great. My Father used to have 100mg of Triamcinolone acetonide injected in April or May to last the worst of the hayfever season, but now he is limited to 10mg tablets orally unless he goes privately where you can still pay for a 100mg injection.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

Not just Salbutomol, but Formetemol, Salmeterol & Budesenoid at typical doses found in Wiggins TUEs would not require a TUE today so many fewer TUEs required to be issued if you use Wiggins as an example of reduced TUEs being issued since 2010.

Wiggins timings for using a 40mg Triamcinolone acetonide injection would have to be near his main objective of the year, because the adrenal suppression gradually returns to normal in 30 days but triamcinolone acetonide's main side effect is it leaves you very open to infection as it suppresses your immune system, so you can only use it once per year really to treat hayfever unless you want to be sick all year. In the UK the NHS no longer prescribes it via injection because it was decided the side effects were too great. My Father used to have 100mg of Triamcinolone acetonide injected in April or May to last the worst of the hayfever season, but now he is limited to 10mg tablets orally unless he goes privately where you can still pay for a 100mg injection.

Wouldn't that place you in serious risk of getting sick during a strenuous GT? Especially in the case of a crash with lots of road rash? It's also surprising that Wigans would need such a powerful and risky hayfever medication in the middle of summer...

 

[42x16ss]

David Millar's account of Corticosteroid use:

 

[samhocking]

I don't think so. When you get injected with triamcinolone acetonide WADA rules now say you have to wait 2 weeks until you can compete again even with the TUE & RAST report, so basically you're probably gonna take it while tapering off two weeks before one big objective you might get hayfever in which could effect your performance the most negatively if pollen counts get high. Obviously if you're not competing and at home you can protect your low immune system.
Even if you could, I don't think you'd want to risk taking triamcinolone acetonide within a stage race for reasons you mention as you'd probably be sick-enough in the two weeks when you should be suspended from racing and be going home sick.

Given the two weeks forced suspension after taking it, you can't race but it's only effective for upto 40 days in terms of hayfever protection, this leaves you having to inject around 2 weeks before a 3 week GT if you still want some hayfever protection in the last week. Obviously if you believe the RAST test is not boogus none of this even matters, but many experts believe all glucocortisoids like triamcinolone acetonide should also be removed from the in-competition list like Salbutomol or completely. I think the argument is basically, they offer such little performance benefit, yet the prevalence of them at lower levels in so many products to treat what is a very common condition such as hayfever, ashtma etc and hundreds of other common ailments, allergies etc means the risk of athletes returning false positives is very high for a class of cortisoids basically not considered performance enhancing.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

David Millar's account of Corticosteroid use:

I don't think they bothered with TUEs in Millars time until after they got caught lol!

 

[Digger]

the timing of wiggins' tue's, the power of the medication - how can anyone defend this? I dare anyone to come on here and defend this.

 

[samhocking]

Millions of people get injected with over double the amount of triamcinolone acetonide Wiggins received his TUE for to treat hayfever and my Dad was one of them for years taking 100mg before symptoms started in April or May for Oak pollen. The NHS still prescribes it orally for his hayfever, but no longer via injection, he has to go private to get injected.
Wiggins Salbutomol TUEs are here nor there for me as today you wouldn't even need a TUE for a couple of puffs every few hours which is not enough for performance enhancement or weight loss etc. His triamcinolone acetonide TUEs all comes down to if you believe the ENT Consultant My Hargreaves Wiggins visited made up his RAST & Endoscopy report in June 2011, May 2012 & March 2013 in order to falsely administer 40mg of triamcinolone acetonide for other reasons than hayfever? No evidence points this report being falsified? That is really what needs to be discussed because the TUE doesn't show anything is wrong with it. You also have to ask yourself, just how performance enhancing is 40mg of triamcinolone acetonide injected once a year when it is an immunosuppressant and can't be taken repeatedly or with any other steroid?

 

[sniper]

Isnt there some some kind of regulation against faking a disease? If not why not?

 

[vedrafjord]

To be honest I thought and still think there's more to the Wiggins weight loss puzzle than corticos - they've been freely available to everyone since the 80's but you never saw that level of weight loss back in the day.

 

[samhocking]

Timing looks acceptable to me.

2011
RAST blood test sometime in May
TUE applied for 30th May
Injection/TUE effective from 29th June.
Endoscopy result on 2nd July to confirm RAST blood test findings in May added to TUE notes it looks like?

2012
15th May Wiggins saw Ent Consultant Mr Hargreaves. Wiggins currently treating hayfever with ventolin, opticron eyedrops and nasal spray (no letter attached from Fancy Bear hack about this?)
No date given, but Hargreaves took another RAST blood test sometime in 2012 before or on 15th May recommending a repeat of 2011 TUE treatment which was more effective than over the counter ventolin, opticron eyedrops self treatment from Wiggins.
No date known for when TUE applied for
TUE effective on 26th June

2013
1st March OPC Letter from Mr Hargreaves to Zorzoli. I assume OPC stands for Objective Performance Criteria which is a numerical target value derived from historical RAST data from clinical studies as Wiggins now has a clinical history of RAST blood tests and Endoscopy results confirming his allergy, so no need for another RAST, just historical evidence in a letter to repeat 2012 injection and TUE.
No date known for when TUE applied for
TUE effective on 22nd April

 

[buckle]

Re:

Isnt there some some kind of regulation against faking a disease? If not why not?

He did go through the NHS for the initial consultancy. The weight loss and no discernible loss of power for one season only remains unanswered.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

To be honest I thought and still think there's more to the Wiggins weight loss puzzle than corticos - they've been freely available to everyone since the 80's but you never saw that level of weight loss back in the day.

I don't really buy the weight loss argument although it is a side effect when overdosing, but not at the TUE level that's for sure. Unless it can be masked it's detectable in you for 30-40 days, there's simply not a 30 days window in Wiggins Calendar to take it legally out of compeition without needing a TUE as it overlaps his racing. Volta Algarve 15–19 February, Paris Nice 4–11 March, Romandi 24 – 29 April, Dauphine 3–10 June.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Re:

But the TUES are so he can use the banned medication before a race....so he can be using this for the other 45 - 50 weeks of the year at any dosage.... am i correct ? and timed to avoid testing of course.

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

But the TUES are so he can use the banned medication before a race....so he can be using this for the other 45 - 50 weeks of the year at any dosage.... am i correct ? and timed to avoid testing of course.

The assumption here is that he is being granted a TUE for usage FULL STOP i.e. the only time that medication is being used is when he is racing. There could have been twenty injections prior to the issuing of the TUE. He doesn't require a TUE to attend a rock concert but may well be doing so doped.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

But the TUES are so he can use the banned medication before a race....so he can be using this for the other 45 - 50 weeks of the year at any dosage.... am i correct ? and timed to avoid testing of course.

No. Your last qualifying sentence makes you wrong. Glucocorticosteroids are S9 and are only banned in competition, so there is no need to time them to avoid testing. So, if we drop that bit, it's unlikely he would be using this medication but if we are talking about the general class of glucocorticosteroids then yes, Wiggins, just like any other athlete that adheres to the WADA code, can use glucocorticosteroids out of competition as much as they like.

 

[Rollthedice]

A few things to consider:

In Wiggo's book My Time there's isn't a single mention of allergy. Given the extreme treatment covered by the TUEs he surely should have been very ill with the allergies. In the same book he is vocal about the no-needle policy and says he NEVER had any injections apart from vaccines and occasionaly having been put on a drip. Why was he lying? The timing of the TUEs is highly suspicious as they precede important GT starts in his career. Last but not least injectable Triamcinolone acetonide is stuff for the champions, poor Lance insisted he used it only as a skin cream.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re:

the timing of wiggins' tue's, the power of the medication - how can anyone defend this? I dare anyone to come on here and defend this.

Taking a relatively short acting (~4-6 week) shot to reduce allergies, just before riding outside in peak pollen season for 3 weeks ?

The timing makes total sense.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

A few things to consider:

In Wiggo's book My Time there's isn't a single mention of allergy. Given the extreme treatment covered by the TUEs he surely should have been very ill with the allergies.

Good question about why it isn't mentioned, seems strange. It's possible other medications worked reasonably well, it was just decided this would work better, it's not this medication or nothing.

In the same book he is vocal about the no-needle policy and says he NEVER had any injections apart from vaccines and occasionaly having been put on a drip. Why was he lying?

Another good question. I've not read his book but was he talking in the context of recovery etc? It's perfectly possible he would describe this as a vaccine as well seeing as it 'cures' his allergies.

The timing of the TUEs is highly suspicious as they precede important GT starts in his career. Last but not least injectable Triamcinolone acetonide is stuff for the champions, poor Lance insisted he used it only as a skin cream.

Or, someone who suffers from allergies gets the medication right and manages to perform? But if that's the case then you would think he would mention it.




As a general point, jumping all over these TUEs seems very strange. Is it because people are desperate to show Sky are up to something and on of the things that has been mentioned in the past is the abuse of the TUE system? I really on't see how these TUEs do anything other than help Sky at the moment if I'm really honest. There's hardly any granted, they make sense based on what we already know about the riders, in Froomes' case they even show he was being completely honest with regards to TUEs and they're not for anything you wouldn't expect other riders to also be using if they suffer from something similar. Basically, there's pretty much nothing here.

 

[samhocking]

I doubt his Dr would advise taking it more than once per year in or out of competition because his immune system would be totally shot if taking it leading upto a GT? My knowledge was wrong on the time it takes to leave the body. The effects on the immune system to help with hayfever are 30-40 days, the drug itself is out of your body in 24 hours and that'll be why the TUE only lasts for 24 hours on the day of the injection.

If you believe Wiggins medical records, he has a lifelong history of hayfever suffering. I would assume him taking triamcinolone acetonide before a big objective during the month where he would hit hit high pollen counts somewhere in the country and destroy his GC position on any day during the 3 weeks in France or Italy is simply a preventative measure, more practical solution than using ventolin, nasal sprays and eyedrops he seems to have historically used to deal with it?

Again, this all depends on if you believe the RAST and the Endoscopy findings and Wiggins hayfever symptoms and history have been falsified to fabricate a cover story to legally inject 40mg of triamcinolone acetonide a few days before his main race for other reasons?

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

A few things to consider:

In Wiggo's book My Time there's isn't a single mention of allergy. Given the extreme treatment covered by the TUEs he surely should have been very ill with the allergies.

Good question about why it isn't mentioned, seems strange. It's possible other medications worked reasonably well, it was just decided this would work better, it's not this medication or nothing.

In the same book he is vocal about the no-needle policy and says he NEVER had any injections apart from vaccines and occasionaly having been put on a drip. Why was he lying?

Another good question. I've not read his book but was he talking in the context of recovery etc? It's perfectly possible he would describe this as a vaccine as well seeing as it 'cures' his allergies.

The timing of the TUEs is highly suspicious as they precede important GT starts in his career. Last but not least injectable Triamcinolone acetonide is stuff for the champions, poor Lance insisted he used it only as a skin cream.

Or, someone who suffers from allergies gets the medication right and manages to perform? But if that's the case then you would think he would mention it.




As a general point, jumping all over these TUEs seems very strange. Is it because people are desperate to show Sky are up to something and on of the things that has been mentioned in the past is the abuse of the TUE system? I really on't see how these TUEs do anything other than help Sky at the moment if I'm really honest. There's hardly any granted, they make sense based on what we already know about the riders, in Froomes' case they even show he was being completely honest with regards to TUEs and they're not for anything you wouldn't expect other riders to also be using if they suffer from something similar. Basically, there's pretty much nothing here.

Hayfever isn't a constant, you can suffer from it for some years and not suffer from it at all another year. You can be on your knees one day and the next fine. I used to take days off school with it, 30 years later I don't have it at all now, my Dad gets it bad every year, but what days he never knows.

I think wiggins no needles views was in relation to recovery products and vitamins within the race more than banning needles even for for theraputic purposes. I see the quote used a lot, but the previous paragraphs shows the context being about recovery rather than performance enhancement.

Lance was using it during the race without a TUE though wasn't he? Was found in blood on 4th, 14th, 15th & 21st. From a cream, I don't think enough enters your blood to test positive. In fact creams containing Triamcinolone acetonide are not prohibted from use in competition anyway. You can use them to treat saddle sores, but obviously it will show in your blood if equipment sensitive enough I would assume?

 

[Benotti69]

Posters looking at Wiggins injections and thinking he doesn't look like a doper. PUHLEAASE. This is pro cycling, remember nothing has changed, nothing, the same people were there when Armstrong won his last few TdFs as when Wiggins won his!

Get real people!

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

A few things to consider:

In Wiggo's book My Time there's isn't a single mention of allergy. Given the extreme treatment covered by the TUEs he surely should have been very ill with the allergies.

Good question about why it isn't mentioned, seems strange. It's possible other medications worked reasonably well, it was just decided this would work better, it's not this medication or nothing.

In the same book he is vocal about the no-needle policy and says he NEVER had any injections apart from vaccines and occasionaly having been put on a drip. Why was he lying?

Another good question. I've not read his book but was he talking in the context of recovery etc? It's perfectly possible he would describe this as a vaccine as well seeing as it 'cures' his allergies.

The timing of the TUEs is highly suspicious as they precede important GT starts in his career. Last but not least injectable Triamcinolone acetonide is stuff for the champions, poor Lance insisted he used it only as a skin cream.

Or, someone who suffers from allergies gets the medication right and manages to perform? But if that's the case then you would think he would mention it.




As a general point, jumping all over these TUEs seems very strange. Is it because people are desperate to show Sky are up to something and on of the things that has been mentioned in the past is the abuse of the TUE system? I really on't see how these TUEs do anything other than help Sky at the moment if I'm really honest. There's hardly any granted, they make sense based on what we already know about the riders, in Froomes' case they even show he was being completely honest with regards to TUEs and they're not for anything you wouldn't expect other riders to also be using if they suffer from something similar. Basically, there's pretty much nothing here.

Hayfever isn't a constant, you can suffer from it for some years and not suffer from it at all another year. You can be on your knees one day and the next fine. I used to take days off school with it, 30 years later I don't have it at all now, my Dad gets it bad every year, but what days he never knows.

I think wiggins no needles views was in relation to recovery products and vitamins within the race more than banning needles even for for theraputic purposes. I see the quote used a lot, but the previous paragraphs shows the context being about recovery rather than performance enhancement.

Lance was using it during the race without a TUE though wasn't he? Was found in blood on 4th, 14th, 15th & 21st. From a cream, I don't think enough enters your blood to test positive. In fact creams containing Triamcinolone acetonide are not prohibted from use in competition anyway. You can use them to treat saddle sores, but obviously it will show in your blood if equipment sensitive enough I would assume?

There was no blood testing in 1999 for anti-doping. Just urine, it was 'trace' amounts.

Wiggins had it all, big fat injection right before the Tour. Legalised doping with Sky support and Walsh to tell the fairly tale.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

Posters looking at Wiggins injections and thinking he doesn't look like a doper. PUHLEAASE. This is pro cycling, remember nothing has changed, nothing, the same people were there when Armstrong won his last few TdFs as when Wiggins won his!

Get real people!

I think it's completely changed. Almost all of the riders racing against Armstrong trying to win Tour de France got banned doing so including himself. Almost all of the riders trying to beat Wiggins & Froome haven't including Wiggins & Froome and Wiggins has retired without a ban.

Something has definitely changed. What it is nobody knows though, because without anyone getting banned at the top anymore, we are all simply plucking at straws either believing they are clean or believing they are doping.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Posters looking at Wiggins injections and thinking he doesn't look like a doper. PUHLEAASE. This is pro cycling, remember nothing has changed, nothing, the same people were there when Armstrong won his last few TdFs as when Wiggins won his!

Get real people!

I think it's completely changed. Almost all of the riders racing against Armstrong trying to win Tour de France got banned doing so including himself. Almost all of the riders trying to beat Wiggins & Froome haven't including Wiggins & Froome and Wiggins has retired without a ban.

Something has definitely changed. What it is nobody knows though, because without anyone getting banned at the top anymore, we are all simply plucking at straws either believing they are clean or believing they are doping.

Something changed, but nobody knows!

Nope that doesn't fly. Even sad JV didn't try and flog that on fans.

Let's see Wiggins, beat, Evans who raced against Armstrong, Kloden, Horner, Valverde, Scarponi, Rogers, Vino and Leipheimer to name a few.

The times are not slower.

But something changed, but nobody knows! WOW! How naive can one be to elevate their heroes with this kind of blindness.

I think if something changed we would hear about it and it would used in other sports to bring a similar change to make things possible for a clean athlete to win.

This kind belief really is laughable.

No one gets banned anymore because it is bad for business.

 

[Nomad]

Re: Re:

Posters looking at Wiggins injections and thinking he doesn't look like a doper. PUHLEAASE. This is pro cycling, remember nothing has changed, nothing, the same people were there when Armstrong won his last few TdFs as when Wiggins won his!

Get real people!

I think it's completely changed. Almost all of the riders racing against Armstrong trying to win Tour de France got banned doing so including himself. Almost all of the riders trying to beat Wiggins & Froome haven't including Wiggins & Froome and Wiggins has retired without a ban.

Something has definitely changed. What it is nobody knows though, because without anyone getting banned at the top anymore, we are all simply plucking at straws either believing they are clean or believing they are doping.

Something has changed: They've gotten a lot smarter, have learned from the past, and, IMO, have better doping doctors who prioritize avoiding detection at all costs (i.e., catastrophic if a high-profile athlete tested positive these days).

The current paradigm of PED use has shifted from an industrial-strength model to one of a microdosing strategy aimed at achieving performance benefits while avoiding detection. Dr. Joyner of the Mayo Clinic has done some interesting research in this area:

"How cheats cheat: why dopers have the edge in athletes' war on drugs." (theguardian/2015).

Also, autologous blood transfusions are impossible to detect as long as the athlete maintains stable values within the upper & lower parameters of their ABP:

"Blood manipulation: current challenges from an anti-doping perspective." (Morkeberg, J/Hematogy Am Soc Hematol Educ Program/2013).

I would definitely read the Morkeberg paper (it's specific to pro cycling)...it'll let you in on all the little secrets (sorry - links aren't posting).





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