Wigans goes there. Cadence!

Krebs cycle · Sep 25, 2012

the big ring said:
The ONLY scientific "rationale" you have provided is a link to a study from 20 years ago, of track cyclists. The study didn't have road cyclists involved and you did not "explain" anything.

Your explanations:
1. World class IP riders have similar physiological characteristics to pro road riders.
* IP riders train and race on the road

Yes correct.

* Brad did sweet FA on the road

So what? Means nothing.

* 20 years ago IP riders would have been riding 6-day events (ie real endurance) just to bring home some pay
* Neil Craig's study only mentions IP riders.

And yet there are dozens upon dozens of other studies which discuss the physiological characteristics of pro road cyclists and the physiological demands of stage racing. Oh lets not forget that Neil Craig was the sport science coordinator for Cycling Australia and worked with both the AIS track and road cycling programs for a good 10yrs or so. Yeah he wouldn't know much about world class cycling would he??

J Sci Med Sport. 2000 Dec;3(4):414-33.
The bioenergetics of World Class Cycling.
Jeukendrup AE, Craig NP, Hawley JA.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11235007

Sports Med. 2001;31(7):457-68.
Characteristics of track cycling.
Craig NP, Norton KI.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11428683

besides what is it you are trying to prove with this point? Who cares if there are no road cyclists in that study. Are you trying to imply that road cyclists do NOT need a high VO2max and LT?

the big ring said:
2. Brad generates more power aerobically than average.

Another flat out LIE. I NEVER said this. In this post from about 6weeks ago in which I replied to YOU, I said the following. I even used italics for emphasis in that post and I didn't even refer to Wiggins specifically.

"if a world class IP cyclist generated a higher than average (ie: average of elite IP cyclists) proportion of their 4min average power output from aerobic sources, then there is a good chance they could make a successful transition to road cycling.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=987978&postcount=4767

the big ring said:
* You don't know that for sure. JV said it on this forum first, and you guys jumped on the band wagon, but noone has actually shown the test, where it was held, when, by whom, and what the results were.

I made my post above before i read what JV had to say on the topic. And you are correct, I don't know whether it is true but IF it is true then it would form part of the explanation you do not want to believe anyway.

On this point you will note I always said "IF". You don't know for sure either but you are not saying IF, you act like you KNOW, which is just plain BS.

teh big ring said:
* None of you are prepared to explain how that comes about. (a list of words is not an explanation)
* None of you can say with any confidence what advantage it affords Brad or why

Been there done that weeks ago.

the big ring said:
You Krebs, have also provided as evidence:
1. Wiggins can climb (Tour de l'Avenir)

It's not a HC climb but its not ZERO evidence pre 2008 when he was 77-78kg.

the big ring said:
2. Wiggins can timetrial (Martin on wet roads vs Wiggins on dry / 7th then 10th at WC)

This was one of the IMPORTANT points that I pointed out from the beginning. ITTs are a better way of looking examining true changes in performance than GC placing because often riders deliberately lose time so they can get into breakaways later on. There are team tactics at work and some riders are paid to work for a team leader, not chase a high GC place themselves. In ITTs, Brad Wiggins has only ever shown a very very small and gradual progression against Cancellara over a period of 7 or 8 yrs. If he had commenced a doping program in 2009 he should have skyrocketed to the top at that time and stayed there consistently over the past 3yrs.

the big ring said:
All of the "scientists" excuse Brad's poor showing on the road, riding as a professional, claiming he was "focusing on the IP".

When we ask "what training did he do for that IP", they wave their hands and say oh no no no you have to PROVE he can't win a GT after being Olympic IP champion for years.

We ask again, "what training did he do for the IP?" and get told "there is no contention".

I don't know exactly what Wiggins' exact training plan was for the past 10yrs, but again here you act like you never rode a bike in your entire life and know absolutely nothing about cycling. Why can't you accept the plain and simple truth that preparation for track and road racing is NOT identical? This is probably a likely reason that other IP riders didn't become more successful on the road also. Maybe they didn't completely give up their track focus and therefore they did not prepare optimally for stage racing and GTs in particular?

From what I know about preparation for IP versus road is that track cyclists do about 15-25k km/yr whereas road cyclists do 25-35k kms per/yr.... up to 10,000km difference. Furthermore, track riders do a significantly greater percent of training at or above VO2max than road cyclists. I'm sure there are other differences but those are a couple of key differences that would have had to be changed in late 2008 through 2009 and beyond.

the big ring said:
You can point out studies from 20 years ago all you like. The fact remains: Brad trained and raced on the road as a professional, during the time he was training for his IP. You have even listed races where he was in day-long breakaways as evidence of his "massive engine". Yet when we say - there's no results, or the results are weak, suddenly his performance on the road is irrelevant.

The fact remains that you are a massive bullsh!t artist as evidenced by your continual lies here and elsewhere. The fact remains that you know sweet FA about exactly what training Wiggins did pre 2008 however it IS a matter of public record that his focus was the track and not the road.

Understanding key differences in preparation for road versus track cycling is covered in level 1 cycling coaching courses. I guess that is a bit above your level of comprehension though.

Von Mises · Sep 25, 2012

the big ring said:
on the road with little success beyond 4km IP races can turn around in 10 months and come 4th in a GT.

Feel free to bring the "big words" in any semblance of an explanation.

Hint: a list of words is not an explanation. Nowhere near.

Rudy Altig actually did it. He was IP champion in 1961, Vuelta winner 1962.

Krebs cycle · Sep 25, 2012

the big ring said:
Really? Hgb affects VO2 max? Hgb that we learnt about in year 11? The closed life-saver shaped molecule streaming around our body, which contains the iron molecule to which ..... OXYGEN BONDS?

And it affects how much oxygen you can consume? Really?

Such breathtaking insight from a PhD in exercise physiology.

You asked for it and now you reply with a pathetic little sarcastic tanty? grow up child.

Whence you spouted "O2 uptake kinetics" and demanded I teach myself, then posted links to studies.

As useful as your list, which I already had a handle on, if you recall?

Oh yes I forgot. you're soooooo awesome. You're self taught. you're intelligent and you know sooooo much about physiology. If you already knew the answer then why have you been asking for an explanation for the last 3-6weeks?

the big ring said:
But this is all moot anyway, as you have no idea whether this "low MAOD" applies to Brad or not. So, no offense "professor", but I am no longer interested.

Well you don't know either but as I've stated from the beginning, IF it is true then it provides a non-doping explanation. You are the one arguing that it ISN'T true or that it can't even be possible.

Before you complained that I belittle you. well if you didn't act like such a child with your lies and sarcasm and hissy fits and egomanical chest beating, then I wouldn't have to treat you as such.

this is getting too much. Apologies mods for letting off some steam.

the big ring · Sep 25, 2012

Krebs cycle said:
<link(s) to article(s) in leiu of explanation>
<insult people you know nothing about for things you think they don't know or haven't done or read>
<berating me as a liar for a mistake I already admitted a few posts ago>

This is what your post looks like. Links to article are NOT explanations. You appear unable to comprehend this very simple point.

the big ring · Sep 25, 2012

Von Mises said:
Rudy Altig actually did it. He was IP champion in 1961, Vuelta winner 1962.

Thanks for the example. Looks like Rudy was World champion in IP both 1960 and 1961. And reading some of the stories, he was an incredible rider.

Here's his road palmares from 1960/61 - I don't recognise any of the race names, but there's a few. He won: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudi_Altig

1960
Narbonne
Caen
Nantua
Issoire
Gourin
Plonéour-Lanvern
Lodève
1961
Round of Aix
Trédion

All in the same year he was IP world champion, aged 23-24.

His very first Vuelta, he won, riding as a pro in 1962, his 3rd year on the road at age 25. He then went on to win the green sprinter's jersey in the Tour de France the same year. What a legend.

That same year, 1962, Rudy was in a 111km 2-up team time trial with Jaques Anquetil, you may have heard of him? This sounds incredible:

Generally in a race of the Barrachi type, the changes are very rapid, with stints of no more than 300 yards. Altig was at the front when I started the check - and he was still there a minute later. Something must be wrong. Altig wasn't even swinging aside to invite Anquetil through... Suddenly, on a flat road, Anquetil lost contact and a gap of three lengths appeared between the two partners. There followed one of the most sensational things I have ever seen in any form of cycle racing during my 35 years' association with the sport - something which I consider as great a physical performance as a world hour record or a classic road race win. Altig was riding at 30mph at the front - and had been doing so for 15 minutes. When Anquetil lost contact, he had to ease the pace, wait for his partner to go by, push him powerfully in the back, sprint to the front again after losing 10 yards in the process, and again settle down to a 30mph stint at the front. Altig did not this just once but dozens of times.[1]

By comparison, Brad didn't win a single professional road race until he had been a pro for 4 years (25 years of age) - and even then it was at Tour l'Avenir as described here: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=981025&postcount=489

So yes, Rudy was IP world champion and then a GT winner. Definitely world class. But he showed world class road ability WHILE he was IP world champion, and won a GT within 3 years of turning pro on the road.

By comparison, Brad looks like a rank amateur.

Thank you for the link though - I love reading those old cycling race reports.

Wallace and Gromit · Sep 25, 2012

the big ring said:
By comparison, Brad looks like a rank amateur.

So where does this leave your general theory that top IP exponents can't become top exponents on the road, including GTs?

If throw in Roger Riviere, who was about to inherit the MJ late on in the Tour when he crashed as a recent pro IP winner, then there's too many people who have done it for it to be impossible.

Wiggo's early results on the road are certainly a much more fruitful avenue for investigation, though you'll never get past the "Wiggo was focusing on the track prior to 2009" argument, as the impact of this can't be proved one way or another.

Von Mises · Sep 25, 2012

the big ring said:
Thanks for the example. Looks like Rudy was World champion in IP both 1960 and 1961. And reading some of the stories, he was an incredible rider.

Here's his road palmares from 1960/61 - I don't recognise any of the race names, but there's a few. He won: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudi_Altig

These are crit races. The point is: Altig was a trackie (and he clearly was a trackie first), who turned into GT winner and very quickly within less than year.

(I do not think that the case of Altig is very relevant in the context of Wiggins debate, but when some said that there have never been trackies who became succesful GT riders, I wanted to mention hsi name.)

Krebs cycle · Sep 25, 2012

the big ring said:
This is what your post looks like. Links to article are NOT explanations. You appear unable to comprehend this very simple point.

here's what every post you make looks like...

ignore everything that doesn't fit your view of reality and then repeat another lie.

if you can't understand the explanations then I can't help you, probably nobody can.

armchairclimber · Sep 25, 2012

Krebs cycle said:
here's what every post you make looks like...

ignore everything that doesn't fit your view of reality and then repeat another lie.

if you can't understand the explanations then I can't help you, probably nobody can.

He's trying to win the internet. No-one can help him, bless.

ChewbaccaD · Sep 25, 2012

Krebs cycle said:
I met a creationist once. She said "I find the opinions of scientists galling. I don't believe in science. I don't believe in evolution, the Earth is only 6000yrs old".

But since you think everyone's opinion is equally valid then I suppose you would agree with her too.

That you don't understand the difference between someone spouting opinion of scientific facts (because carbon dating alone proves that woman is wrong) and you supposing data (of which you have no evidence by definition) to extrapolate a conclusion that is based on that very data shows me you are a pretty **** poor scientist. But I think we all started to get that clue when you came in here with the "there is no such thing is a person who responds better to doping than another" theory...

I mean, please tell me that you understand the problem with suppositions in your own work. You have to be smart enough to figure that one out, right?

acoggan · Sep 25, 2012

sittingbison said:
The problem of course being all the argument that the reason he suddenly transformed from riding the broom wagon to 4th in 2009 behind Contador Schleck and Armstrong (clinbers of some small reknown), was the he lost weight.

So, if he did NOT lose weight, how did he suddenly climb so well? How did he lug his 82kg trackie physique over them thar hills? Why cant Cancellara and Martin do the same? But it explains maintaining the power.

Or we have the claims from various teams and himself, that he went from 77kg to 82kg to 71kg to 69kg between 2007 to 2012. With the 82kg figure being prime beef for winning gold at Beijing. Now I know Beijing is near to Japan, who like their steak wagyu style with lots of yummy fatty marbling. But I doubt that wiggo could have won gold in the IP being wagyu. So he supposedly lost 11kg in in less than a year from a lean muscular physique, suddenly galloped over the Alps with the best of them, but did not suffer any of the expected negatives such as losing power. Still cant win an ITT to save himself though. Then lose another 2kg for this year, which DID allowed him to at long last dominate the ITTs, as well as the mountains.

So we have a conundrum don't we. Having your cake and eating it too comes to mind, although the only ones eating cake are those fatties Canc san and Martin san - obviously wagyu.

But wait!! Krebs knows a lightweight rower who can apparently row for 2 mins at the same pace as he did when 3kg heavier. And the well known elite cyclist nocontest loses and gains 7kg every season between ice cream binges and STILL keeps doing well in crits.

Muscle specific gym training! Thats the answer. Train those pesky useless muscles away in the gym, but keep the good ones. So besides being addicted to gateau, wagyus Canc san and Martin san are obviously not gym junkies or they too could slim down without power deficit and win the TdF.

Now, getting back to the actual thread which is CADENCE....

??

Your stream-of-consciousness brain dumps are even harder to understand than big ring's.

acoggan · Sep 25, 2012

the big ring said:
Does Brad Wiggins have a low MAOD?

According to JV, he must (at least compared to other world-class pursuiters).

acoggan · Sep 25, 2012

the big ring said:
Really? Hgb affects VO2 max? Hgb that we learnt about in year 11? The closed life-saver shaped molecule streaming around our body, which contains the iron molecule to which ..... OXYGEN BONDS?

And it affects how much oxygen you can consume? Really?

Such breathtaking insight from a PhD in exercise physiology.

Note that Kreb's Cycle specified total hemoglobin mass, not hemoglobin concentration...

acoggan · Sep 25, 2012

Krebs cycle said:
LIn this post from about 6weeks ago in which I replied to YOU, I said the following. I even used italics for emphasis in that post and I didn't even refer to Wiggins specifically.

"if a world class IP cyclist generated a higher than average (ie: average of elite IP cyclists) proportion of their 4min average power output from aerobic sources, then there is a good chance they could make a successful transition to road cycling.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=987978&postcount=4767

I made my post above before i read what JV had to say on the topic.

I have to say, I'm impressed. I started from the (quite logical) assumption that Wiggins' success in the IP (and TP, let's not forget that, since the demands are rather different) was the result, in part, of a high anaerobic capacity. It was only after reading that comment from JV that the alternative seemed more likely.

sittingbison · Sep 25, 2012

acoggan said:
??

Your stream-of-consciousness brain dumps are even harder to understand than big ring's.

Which bit didn't you understand?

function · Sep 25, 2012

the big ring said:
Here's why: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1031040&postcount=696

You, Krebs cycle and _frost may as well all be the same person.

You spout this stuff - just like Krebs:

Stop trolling, I'm not Krebs or _frost or whomever else you think I may be, just because I don't agree with your line of reasoning.

acoggan · Sep 25, 2012

sittingbison said:
Which bit didn't you understand?

All I got out of your lengthy screed is that you wished to discuss changes in cadence, not body mass.

IOW, pretty much all of it.

the big ring · Sep 25, 2012

function said:
Stop trolling, I'm not Krebs or _frost or whomever else you think I may be, just because I don't agree with you.

I agree. You may as well be them because you sound exactly the same, arguing their ideas verbatim, not because you don't agree with me.

Don't be late Pedro - disagrees with me.
Wallace and Gromit - disagrees with me.

But they do it by disagreeing with me - arguing a point I have tried to make, offering a suggestion or alternative, and generally share their opinion - because that's all we have at the end of the day. When they share it, it makes sense, and does not need some super-duper level of refined knowledge only the purvey of PhD holders and scientists. Or require me to pay for access to studies left, right and center so I can get some actual detail about what's being argued, when in the end, a good scientist who truly understands something can explain it.

I know this to be true because my area of expertise sometimes requires me to explain things to people who know nothing about what I am doing or how. And I do explain it. It requires imagination and a thorough understanding of the subject matter material, as well as an understanding of that person's intelligence and knowledge domains. You come up with analogies and metaphors in order to communicate using their vernacular. I actually really enjoy it.

I have given the cabal ample opportunity to actually explain where they are coming from. Krebs once described the difference between threshold power on the flat vs climbing ability and it sounded brilliant. It's almost like he copied and pasted it from somewhere, though, given the subsequent posts which amount to links to studies and insults.

Pedro and Wallace do not sing their qualifications in an attempt to browbeat any opposition to their position. They do not insult me, my intelligence or experience.

They share, we agree or disagree, and that's the end of it.

Sometimes I think the cabal are defending Wiggins - even though they deny it as vociferously as they disagree with my posts.

Then other times I wonder if they are secretly dying for the truth of Wiggins' dirty secrets to be revealed. They test my arguments, offer their own to give me ideas on where to look next for debunking, and throw in the odd insult to make it look like they really dislike me, because let me assure you: pros, team managers, etc are all reading this. Very carefully. And if the guys employed by elite athletes are in any way, shape or form supporting the notion that the elite athletes are doping BOOM BOOM baby - good night nurse.

So the odd put down, insult, rant, just to keep up apperances, but in reality, they are helping hone the arguments and ferret out the truth, so the light can be shone in the dark, and another step taken towards truly clean sport.

Coz in the end, that's all we want.

Well, it's what I want. I don't rely on elite athletes for my income, though, so it's a bit easier for me to say what I really think.

Wallace and Gromit · Sep 25, 2012

the big ring said:
Pedro and Wallace do not sing their qualifications in an attempt to browbeat any opposition to their position.

...

Then other times I wonder if they are secretly dying for the truth of Wiggins' dirty secrets to be revealed.

I have no qualifications to sing, other than in accountancy!

Fanboy of Wiggo though I am, I would love to know what really goes on at Sky. I fear that I know the truth at a high level, so my fanboyism wouldn't change if nefarious behaviour was shown, but it would still be good to know the details. Although not for Wiggo, obviously!

oldcrank · Sep 25, 2012

D-Queued said:
Make it easier.
How about the last cyclist to win the Tour who distinguished themselves, in any way, on the track prior to winning the Tour?
Dave.

I guess another answer to this specific question (assuming
when you used the word "Tour" you were using it to refer to
"the Tour de France" because you seem to be referencing
Brad Wiggins recent historic win in the Tour de France)
would be Coppi who set the Hour record in 1942 and won
Pursuit Gold in 1947 and Silver in 1948 before his Tour de
France wins in 1949 and 1952.
Please note: I am only answering Dave's question and I am
not implying anything about anybody.

the big ring · Sep 25, 2012

acoggan said:
Note that Kreb's Cycle specified total hemoglobin mass, not hemoglobin concentration...

Another riveting explanation by one of our esteemed colleagues.

armchairclimber · Sep 25, 2012

acoggan said:
I have to say, I'm impressed. I started from the (quite logical) assumption that Wiggins' success in the IP (and TP, let's not forget that, since the demands are rather different) was the result, in part, of a high anaerobic capacity. It was only after reading that comment from JV that the alternative seemed more likely.

This being because there is a greater likelihood of them being able to sustain a high pace for much much longer....and comfortably?

DirtyWorks · Sep 25, 2012

Von Mises said:
These are crit races. The point is: Altig was a trackie (and he clearly was a trackie first), who turned into GT winner and very quickly within less than year.

(I do not think that the case of Altig is very relevant in the context of Wiggins debate, but when some said that there have never been trackies who became succesful GT riders, I wanted to mention hsi name.)

I opened this issue with the question, in the history of competitive cycling, how many riders went from the now relative obscurity of track to Grand Tour killer? Thank you for digging out an answer.

Now, we've got one who won a Grand Tour for all practical purposes while he was excelling on the track. As another post points out, this was not Wiggin's situation. There's a second example posted of the great Fausto Coppi. I would categorize Coppi and Altig similarly.

Had Wiggins done something similar to Altig/Coppi, I would agree that Wiggins has the genetic gifts to ride as a Grand Tour slayer much like a Merckx who by virtue of showing up was practically assured a podium spot on the track. To be clear, this was never Wiggins' situation.

the big ring · Sep 25, 2012

DirtyWorks said:
I opened this issue with the question, in the history of competitive cycling, how many riders went from the now relative obscurity of track to Grand Tour killer? Thank you for digging out an answer.

Now, we've got one who won a Grand Tour for all practical purposes while he was excelling on the track. As another post points out, this was not Wiggin's situation.

Had Wiggins done something similar to Altig, I would agree that Wiggins has the genetic gifts to ride as a Grand Tour slayer much like a Merckx who by virtue of showing up was practically assured a podium spot on the track. To be clear, this was never Wiggins' situation.

+1

If he went from world champ IP to GT GC rider (anywhere in the top 10) at his first attempt. That would be believable. World class, definitely gifted, but believable. He's a big fish in a very small IP pond / UK scene pond. Stick him in the world and he's top 20 or just top 10 in long TTs and nfi where in one-day road races. Not 2012 domination of all and sundry from March to August at the ripe old age of 32.

D-Queued · Sep 25, 2012

oldcrank said:
I guess another answer to this specific question (assuming
when you used the word "Tour" you were using it to refer to
"the Tour de France" because you seem to be referencing
Brad Wiggins recent historic win in the Tour de France)
would be Coppi who set the Hour record in 1942 and won
Pursuit Gold in 1947 and Silver in 1948 before his Tour de
France wins in 1949 and 1952.
Please note: I am only answering Dave's question and I am
not implying anything about anybody.

Thanks. Had been wondering about Coppi - but hadn't checked up.

Also appreciate the disclaimer!

Dave.

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