Wigans goes there. Cadence!

[Dear Wiggo]

Quick question. Who was the last person before Wigans to win the TdF AND get a WC medal in the pursuit?

I think you'll be surprised...

Probably someone who was good on the road before they did the WC medal in the pursuit, with a palmares weighted towards the road and significant results on the road the same year as the WC medal.

 

[42x16ss]

Probably someone who was good on the road before they did the WC medal in the pursuit, with a palmares weighted towards the road and significant results on the road the same year as the WC medal.

I won't give it away yet, I want to see SeriousSam or Jimmyfingers come up with the answer themselves

Hint: Until Wigans it hadn't happened for a LONG time...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I won't give it away yet, I want to see SeriousSam or Jimmyfingers come up with the answer themselves

Given we had this discussion last year or the year before, with a couple of answers, they could just search this thread to learn who those riders were... I think I was trying to highlight the gross differences between Wiggins, the "IP == GT winner" validation theory and the riders who cropped up in that previous discussion.

 

[42x16ss]

Given we had this discussion last year or the year before, with a couple of answers, they could just search this thread to learn who those riders were... I think I was trying to highlight the gross differences between Wiggins, the "IP == GT winner" validation theory and the riders who cropped up in that previous discussion.

That's fine with me, I just want them to find it themselves and spare the thread yet more pages of "IP WC is a valid indication of a TdF winner" cr@p

 

[scholar]

Quick question. Who was the last person before Wigans to win the TdF AND get a WC medal in the pursuit?

Had anyone done it since Coppi?

 

[sittingbison]

Quick question. Who was the last person before Wigans to win the TdF AND get a WC medal in the pursuit?

I think you'll be surprised...

dont expect a quick answer to your quick question

 

[42x16ss]

Had anyone done it since Coppi?

Close! Anquetil did it as well (2x silver). AFAIK those two and Wigans are the only ones...

dont expect a quick answer to your quick question

Yeah, a bit obscure I guess Shows how relevant IP results are to GT potential though doesn't it!

 

[armchairclimber]

Close! Anquetil did it as well (2x silver). AFAIK those two and Wigans are the only ones...



Yeah, a bit obscure I guess Shows how relevant IP results are to GT potential though doesn't it!

What it does show is that only exceptional talents manage it.

 

[sittingbison]

What it does show is that only exceptional talents manage it.

Yup, when my thoughts dwell on exceptional talents, the names that always spring to mind are Coppi, Anquetil, Wiggo...

 

[JimmyFingers]

Close! Anquetil did it as well (2x silver). AFAIK those two and Wigans are the only ones...



Yeah, a bit obscure I guess Shows how relevant IP results are to GT potential though doesn't it!

But it doesn't preclude it, does it? People who want to construct a Wiggins 'transformation' want to dismiss his early career achievements on the track, while others see it as a valid part of palmares. Track success means you are a good athlete, it's a bit luddite to claim it can't translate into success on the road.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Yup, when my thoughts dwell on exceptional talents, the names that always spring to mind are Coppi, Anquetil, Wiggo.

Rightly so. Doping or otherwise, Wiggo's versatility is very impressive. If winning IP golds is "easy" due to the narrow pool of talent then I'm sure the roadies would have gone for this easy route to Olympic gold rather than taking their chances in the lottery of the road race whilst the IP was on the Olympic programme.

I know it wasn't against the rules at the time, but Coppi (*) and Anquetil were self-confessed dopers, so if you're getting picky, you shouldn't really include them in any assessment of exceptional cyclists.

(*) Coppi only doped "when necessary", which he clarified as being "almost always".

 

[Pack Fodder]

Rightly so. Doping or otherwise, Wiggo's versatility is very impressive. If winning IP golds is "easy" due to the narrow pool of talent then I'm sure the roadies would have gone for this easy route to Olympic gold rather than taking their chances in the lottery of the road race whilst the IP was on the Olympic programme.

I know it wasn't against the rules at the time, but Coppi was a self-confessed doper, so if you're getting picky, you shouldn't really include him in any assessment of exceptional cyclists.

Posters really ought to remember that for most of the time between coppi and the nineties, the olympic track events were dominated by amateurs because the olympics were amateur - pro riders couldn't do them. IP Track specialists would have had to stay amateur, and the professional track world was concentrated on '6 days'.

Compare for example the kind of track riding pro riders DID do - 6 day continental events - Merckx, for example did tons of them, quite successfully.

There's a fair bit of apples and oranges comparison going on here...

 

[RownhamHill]

Yup, when my thoughts dwell on exceptional talents, the names that always spring to mind are Coppi, Anquetil, Wiggo...

If you look purely through the lens of road racing that's kind of fair enough (though what would happen if Wiggins came back next year and actually won Robaix* - he'd have a pretty interesting/impressive road palmares to put on the historic record then).

But if you pan back from road racing specifically, and look at Wiggins as an athlete, it's hard to argue that he hasn't had exceptional success throughout his career - he's what, the second or third most successful UK Olympian across all sports of all time? Regardless of whether you're doping or not, I simply don't believe you get to medal across four Olympic games without some kind of exceptional talent.

*I don't think it will happen, but nor do I don't think it's unreasonable to consider the question - he was obviously gutted he didn't try and jump with Terprstra this year, which suggests he thought he might have left something on the road in the finale, and regardless top-ten in the first group is impressive.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

rightly so. Doping or otherwise, wiggo's doping is very impressive. Always".

ftfy .

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Keeping in mind all the time Wiggo was beating all his UK contemporaries in TTs -from Junior level up - he was an also ran at the world level.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Keeping in mind all the time Wiggo was beating all his UK contemporaries in TTs -from Junior level up - he was an also ran at the world level.

Not sure that's relevant when assessing Wiggo's achievements as a senior since 2000. Athletes progress from junior to senior at different rates. When Murray and Djokovic first played as juniors, Murray won 6-1 6-0, which has b*gger all bearing on how one assesses their relative merits as seniors. And back in the 70s, a guy called Kirk Dumpleton beat Coe and Ovett in the same junior race.

As a senior, Wiggo has won at elite level in three different track events, flat TTs, mountain TTs, stage races and even a bunch sprint, as well as proving competitive over the cobbles in one-day races. Doping or otherwise, this is a level of versatility unmatched by any rider in the modern era.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

ftfy .

Thanks. Though I don't think your modified post "Doping or otherwise, Wiggo's doping is very impressive" actually makes sense.

"Doping or otherwise" implies doubt over Wiggo's doping status, whereas "Wiggo's doping is very impressive" assumes he is doping. I don't think you can sensibly have doubt and certainty over the same factor in the same sentence.

 

[The Hitch]

Oh ffs this is just trolling Jimmy. No one said Wiggins didn't have massive talent to win all those medals on the track.

No one's dismissing the results either.

Pointing out that climbing is a different activity to 4k pursuit /= dismissing it.

By your logic wiggos opponents in the 2012 tour (and all tours since 2005) should have been Chris hoy, Fabian cancellara, mark Cavendish, Sven Nys, etc.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Thanks. Though I don't think your modified post "Doping or otherwise, Wiggo's doping is very impressive" actually makes sense.

"Doping or otherwise" implies doubt over Wiggo's doping status, whereas "Wiggo's doping is very impressive" assumes he is doping. I don't think you can sensibly have doubt and certainty over the same factor in the same sentence.

Certainty trumps doubt, certainly. Of that I have no doubt.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

No one said Wiggins didn't have massive talent to win all those medals on the track.

I think Dear Wiggo has said this or at least implied it via his repeated observation that the talent pool on the endurance side of the track world is very shallow.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Certainty trumps doubt, certainly. Of that I have no doubt.

Are you Sir Humphrey Appleby in disguise?

 

[simo1733]

Evgeny Berzin is near enough.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Are you Sir Humphrey Appleby in disguise?

Are you asking this non-personal, non-baiting, on-topic question as a moderator setting an example, or as a normal poster?

 

[ebandit]

ballistic alien encounter

funny/crazy/awesome in equal measure

one must be impressed by da dawg's honesty attacking from the front like that...................where is the joy in seeing a wheelsucker pop round our intrepid andventurer at the last moment ( rhetorical ? )

what would impress ALL here...........I know gotta have wiggo at the tdf to lead out da dawg on the final stage in paris

I don't think there is anything th the xenon/inhaler story to me it just looked that froomey was struggling to eat something that had melted in the heat

Mark L

 

[RownhamHill]

Oh ffs this is just trolling Jimmy. No one said Wiggins didn't have massive talent to win all those medals on the track.

No one's dismissing the results either.

But to be fair, this particular flurry of discussion started when you yourself quoted LeMond saying that talented champions appear at 19-20, and don't appear out of nowhere at age 29. Since you posted in the Wiggins thread, it's kind of implying that he did appear out of nowhere at age 29, to which it was pointed out his first notable athletic achievement of note being winning a senior Olympic medal at the age of 20 (and implicitly meeting LeMond's criteria down to a tee).

Now, since you're not dismissing his track results or the level of talent needed for them, or that they started at the age of 20, it looks like you're probably agreeing that the LeMond doesn't quote doesn't hold in the light of Wiggins career. If this is the case, it rather begs the question in this specific case: who exactly here is trolling?