Wiggins Discussion Thread

[The Hitch]

I don't think Valverde took 18 months off because of my opinion. I'm really not that influential.

Dont play stupid. Its not that you brought up his pre 2006 past.

You said that everything he ever won was achieved that way.

Pretty powerful allegations those. Maybe, to paraphrase you, someone should contact Valverde and get him to sue you

 

[Zam_Olyas]

 

[Mambo95]

Dont play stupid. Its not that you brought up his pre 2006 past.

You said that everything he ever won was achieved that way.

Pretty powerful allegations those.

He hardly inspires confidence though. Some people believe in spontaneous divine conversions, but I don't.

Put it this way. Would you bet everything you own at odds of 5/1, even 10/1 on Valverde having been a good boy since 2006?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Do I think Valverde has been a good boy since 2006? No.

Do I think he has needed to dope to win every race he's won? No.

After all, since 2006 he has won things like stages of the Clasica Alcobendas, Paris-Camembert, against fields that a guy of his level could well be able to beat without doping, and things like the Volta a Comunidad Valenciana and the Tour Méditerranéen, February preparation races. It's certainly feasible that he could compete cleanly in preparation races and smaller events AND STILL BE COMPETITIVE, whilst still being juiced (within reason, after all, he will get lots of tests for being on the watchlist and winning lots) for the bigger events that he was winning.

 

[palmerq]

arrrgh... I deleted a couple of posts here, why is very thread turning into doping and petty arguments, please stop at once... lets all get along and stick to to the topic of the thread....

hmmm doping again, lets leave it out here please before I give out infractions

 

[Mambo95]

hmmm doping again, lets leave it out here please before I give out infractions

I won't mention anything more about it. But, you can't ignore what happened and claim him to be some grand champion and not expect someone to reference it.

It's like writing about Nixon and ignoring Watergate.

 

[palmerq]

I won't mention anything more about it. But, you can't ignore what happened and claim him to be some grand champion and not expect someone to reference it.

:S it's also the wiggins thread

 

[danjo007]

yeah back to wiggins - he sucks!

 

[webvan]

Wrong thread, please delete.

 

[stefrees]

I think having a rivalry between different styles of cyclist in Paris nice is great, both excellent but both very different. It should be exciting to see what happens, non?

 

[The Hitch]

I won't mention anything more about it. But, you can't ignore what happened and claim him to be some grand champion and not expect someone to reference it.

It's like writing about Nixon and ignoring Watergate.

Id say theres as much chance that Nixon was involved in a similar cover up in the early 80s as there is that Regan was.

However you accuse Nixon of being involved in more cover ups in the 80s than Regan all the while insulting others with temrs like "crazed" and "assylum" if they make suggestions that Reagan may have been involved in cover ups in the 80's by virtue of the fact that he was friends with several Nixon like characters.

Also you attack others when they talk about Lyndon Johnsons election rigging charges, telling them they should move on but yet it seems arent willing to let Nixon's past be past.

ps palmer, this has nothing to do with doping

hmmm doping again, lets leave it out here please before I give out infractions

Just an observation but the all dope talk posts deleted rule lets people bait others.

They post something that they know will get deleted but they also know several people will read it and those people will then be unable to respond because the mods are over the thread so its a good way of getting a message accross that others cant respond to.



Its the perfect trolling device.

 

[Winterfold]

I like Valverde - exciting racer, animates races, races to win always, but some posters need to get a perspective

Wiggins and Sean Yates seem pretty realistic about their chances - they know its a long way from over.

 

[oldcrank]

^^that, is it that hard to understand that no1 really cares about the track in continental europe? for all i(and most people care) wiggins could have won everything on the track for the past 50 years and we would still say that any1 with a GT or a monument win, which wasn't a total fluke ofc, is a better cyclist then him. deal with it.

Actually, compared to football, no one really cares about road
cycling in continental Europe. And most Europeans think road
cyclists are all d*pers, but most Europeans respect Olympic
gold medals.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Actually, compared to football, no one really cares about road
cycling in continental Europe. And most Europeans think road
cyclists are all d*pers, but most Europeans respect Olympic
gold medals.

Yes, they respect Olympic Gold Medals for reasons of national pride and respect them equally in a hundred sports they couldn't care less about every day of every other year. Track cycling, curling, sailing, rowing, ski jumping, ice dancing, tiddliewinks, clay pigeon shooting and all the other utterly irrelevant sports with no fanbase at all of their own apart from the one they borrow from the Olympics for a day or two every four years.

In sports with an actual profile amongst the general public, like football, boxing, tennis, golf, road cycling, rugby, baseball etc, the Olympics are fundamentally not very important. Track cycling is fun to watch once in a while, but it ranks somewhere just behind cyclocross and mountain biking in terms of significance. It is to road cycling as Sunday League football is to the Premiership. Even in Britain and Australia, the only places where track is taken seriously within the national cycling infrastructure, barely a single member of the general public cares about it outside of the Olympic medal ceremony.

I'm not attacking Wiggins in saying that. He's proven himself to be a more than decent competitor on the road.

 

[Machu Picchu]

Actually, compared to football, no one really cares about road cycling in continental Europe. And most Europeans think road
cyclists are all d*pers, but most Europeans respect Olympic
gold medals.

Not exactly the same but look at it this way, these forums are visited by all sorts from all over who have one thing in common:

Road racing - 5,531 (threads) 463,549 (posts)
MTB - 213 / 1,889
Track - 114 / 1,384
Cyclo-cross - 199 / 1,791

 

[Gloin22]

Not exactly the same but look at it this way, these forums are visited by all sorts from all over who have one thing in common:

Road racing - 5,531 (threads) 463,549 (posts)
MTB - 213 / 1,889
Track - 114 / 1,384
Cyclo-cross - 199 / 1,791

Good comparison about big cycling fans, but not to the point. More people know Wiggins in Europe than Valverde, and all the other cycling stats bar Lance, Cotnador and Cav. Mostly because of his gold medals.

 

[Froome19]

Yes, they respect Olympic Gold Medals for reasons of national pride and respect them equally in a hundred sports they couldn't care less about every day of every other year. Track cycling, curling, sailing, rowing, ski jumping, ice dancing, tiddliewinks and all the other utterly irrelevant sports with no fanbase at all of their own apart from the one they borrow from the Olympics for a day or two every four years.

In sports with an actual profile amongst the general public, like football, boxing, tennis, golf, road cycling, rugby, baseball etc, the Olympics are fundamentally not very important. Track cycling is fun to watch once in a while, but it ranks somewhere just behind cyclocross and mountain biking in terms of significance. It is to road cycling as Sunday League football is to the Premiership.

Ummm... rugby and baseball arent olympic sports and if youre talking about professional boxing than that isnt olympic either, if youre talking about boxing in general then you cant say such a thing as professional boxers cant compete in the olympics.
And in terms of track cycling there seems to be more high profile road cyclists on the track than in any other cycling discipline so it logically should be ranked as the top subsidary discipline.
And top road cyclists (admittedly most of them young ones) ride track yet I have never heard of premierleague footballers playing in the sunday league (competitvely) one is a step down in class the other is a totally different discipline that is not necessarily a step down in class

 

[oldcrank]

To the two replies to my post, never once did I
say track cycling is more popular than road
cycling. I said Europeans respect Olympic
Gold medals and think road cyclists are d*pers
and road cycling is a minor sport compared
to football.

 

[Machu Picchu]

Good comparison about big cycling fans, but not to the point. More people know Wiggins in Europe than Valverde, and all the other cycling stats bar Lance, Cotnador and Cav. Mostly because of his gold medals.

but most people here don't rate road cyclists by their track records.

To the two replies to my post, never once did I
say track cycling is more popular than road cycling. I said Europeans respect Olympic Gold medals and think road cyclists are d*pers.

Doping is thought of as being common by some in the olympics?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Ummm... rugby and baseball arent olympic sports

Yes they are. Baseball was an Olympic sport in the last few Summer games. It's been dropped from the next Olympics because nobody cared about the Olympic baseball competition outside of Cuba. Rugby (in its seven man version) is one of the sports which will replace baseball, starting in 2016, and believe me, nobody will care about that either.

and if youre talking about professional boxing than that isnt olympic either, if youre talking about boxing in general then you cant say such a thing as professional boxers cant compete in the olympics.

Almost all of the people who compete in the "amateur" code Olympics are full time professional boxers, paid by state grants. For most of them, outside of Cuba, it's also just a staging post on the way to a real career in the Professional code. Sort of like road cyclists doing a bit of track in their youth. Although it should be pointed out that, although it is irrelevant compared to pro boxing, far more people care about amateur code boxing than care about track cycling!

And in terms of track cycling there seems to be more high profile road cyclists on the track

Who cares? Cyclocross in particular is an actually successful, if minor, spectator sport with actual fans of its own who care about it. That puts it streets ahead of track cycling in terms of popularity. I'd be reasonably confident that more people care about mountain biking too. Possibly even BMX.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

To the two replies to my post, never once did I
say track cycling is more popular than road
cycling. I said Europeans respect Olympic
Gold medals and think road cyclists are d*pers
and road cycling is a minor sport compared
to football.

All of those statements are broadly speaking true. And all of them are utterly irrelevant when discussing the relative status of road cycling and track. Road cycling is a real spectator sport with a real fanbase of its own. Track cycling is not. Achievements on the track are worth less than achievements as an espoir in road cycling when it comes to your status in the sport.

I like track cycling, but it has to be said that it's a backwater within the sport.

 

[Nilsson]

Good comparison about big cycling fans, but not to the point. More people know Wiggins in Europe than Valverde, and all the other cycling stats bar Lance, Cotnador and Cav. Mostly because of his gold medals.

You don't really believe this, do you? If they know Wiggins, it's most likely because he's a road cyclists now and because he finished fourth in the Tour. Not because his successes at the Olympics. Before 2009, outside GB, barely any one was interested or knew Wiggins...

 

[The Hitch]

Yes, they respect Olympic Gold Medals for reasons of national pride and respect them equally in a hundred sports they couldn't care less about every day of every other year. Track cycling, curling, sailing, rowing, ski jumping, ice dancing, tiddliewinks, clay pigeon shooting and all the other utterly irrelevant sports with no fanbase at all of their own apart from the one they borrow from the Olympics for a day or two every four years.

In sports with an actual profile amongst the general public, like football, boxing, tennis, golf, road cycling, rugby, baseball etc, the Olympics are fundamentally not very important. Track cycling is fun to watch once in a while, but it ranks somewhere just behind cyclocross and mountain biking in terms of significance. It is to road cycling as Sunday League football is to the Premiership. Even in Britain and Australia, the only places where track is taken seriously within the national cycling infrastructure, barely a single member of the general public cares about it outside of the Olympic medal ceremony.

I'm not attacking Wiggins in saying that. He's proven himself to be a more than decent competitor on the road.

Why I like what you are saying, regarding this thing of ours being a high profile sport, it should be pointed out that the participants of road cycling, are in a totaly different income bracket when compared to the other sports you mention.

So for a baseball player the pathetic 30 grand on offer for an olympic gold plus the exposure, isnt worth much.

For a road cyclist however, 30 grand is a huge deal, and the prospect of making the back pages for once in your career that day, also a huge deal.

Especially when you factor in the ammount of people that can win. In pretty much all other sports there is a limited number of canidates for the win. 4, 5. The other guys are just never going to match them.

So again, the potential winners are the same guys already racking it up in the big leagues of their sports.

In our thing meanwhile, the top 10 even 20 guys are not guaranteed anything, it could go to anyone. This works in 2 ways. First of all the simple winner takes all opportunity also helps the olympics with regards to its position in this thing of ours.

Second of all rather than have fuedal pay divisions, between the world number 1 and say world number 20, like in Boxing, where Oscar de La hoya was fighting for 8 figure sums and guys a few places below him will be fighting for 50 grand, or slightly less dramatic as in say tennis where being outside the world 100 is a struggle certainatly for exposure. Cycling meanwhile has this evened out, so while Contador isnt taking home $40 mil (and only 1 cyclist appeared on the biggest earner in every country list 2010, easy to guess), guys who arent in the world top 50 or 100 are still regarded as great riders, still have their fans. riders who possibly arent even in the top 500 like say Marten Wynants (was going to say Amador but wasnt worth Ryos reaction), are still known and have financial security and will continue to barring injury, live relatively comfortable lives off performances that don't really go into top level, deep into their 30's.

So when instead of a nadal and a djokovic you have that wealth and fame spread out over 5 Cancellaras 10 Dan Martins 50 Dominico Pozzovovios and 200 Alexander Efimkins, that 30 second slot on the evening news a homecoming parade and 30 000 squid summer bonus, is something that might appear quite attractive.

 

[DominicDecoco]

Heck, even the legendary Michael Morkov is a World Champion on track (with a bit of help from Alex Rasmussen mind you).

 

[oldcrank]

All of those statements are broadly speaking true. And all of them are utterly irrelevant when discussing the relative status of road cycling and track.

Okay, I'll try again. I am not/was not discussing the relative status of road
cycling vs. track cycling. I was discussing the relative status of football vs.
any/all forms of cycling.