Wiggins speaks about drugs

[Race Radio]

But not from me, just before there is any misunderstanding. My time is too precious to be absorbed by such trivialities.

Raceradio: I fully agree, I did admit my own distraction with the distinguished Chinese philosopher, it was purely in response to noticing GMac's location, I am a big fan of his writings. I have read the thread fully, but I find most of the observations the work of one poster, and generally based on opinion and rather less fact. It is fact I am most interested in, hence my enthusiasm to explore the "facts" further. I perhaps have you at a slight advantage, something that may become clearer as the conversation progresses.

I seem to have started on a rather poor footing, disadvantaged as I am perhaps by recent events. Trust is not something I expect, but rather something that maybe I may earn.

TG

If you would like to dicuss something besides Wiggins and doping I suggest you go to this thread

 

[TheGame]

Mistaken Identity?

If you would like to dicuss something besides Wiggins and doping I suggest you go to this thread

Thank you my friend. That thread appears similar to one I have visited previously. You really do have me confused for another.

Is it time to get back on the road to the truth, or shall we continue down this side street aimlessly?

It seems to me, although admittedly I have not had the benefit of seeing the blood values, that every improvement in Bradleys performance can be simply explained. The mind is a very complex machine, and small adjustments to its inner workings can produce spectacular results. Diet, as any professional level sportsman will verify is key to performance.

Do not be blinded by the truth my friend. The "Truth" is all so often lies concelead behind a hidden motivation. It was Benjamin Franklin once said "Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see"; A wise man indeed.

And so to bed. Tiredness unforunately is not condusive to rational conversation.

TG

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Thank you my friend. That thread appears similar to one I have visited previously. You really do have me confused for another.

Is it time to get back on the road to the truth, or shall we continue down this side street aimlessly?

It seems to me, although admittedly I have not had the benefit of seeing the blood values, that every improvement in Bradleys performance can be simply explained. The mind is a very complex machine, and small adjustments to its inner workings can produce spectacular results. Diet, as any professional level sportsman will verify is key to performance.

Do not be blinded by the truth my friend. The "Truth" is all so often lies concelead behind a hidden motivation. It was Benjamin Franklin once said "Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see"; A wise man indeed.

And so to bed. Tiredness unforunately is not condusive to rational conversation.

TG

Just to clarify - you have yet to see Bradley's blood values and yet already have the explaination?

I have yet to make my mind up about Bradley - so I would be interested in any discussion.
But to take another quote of Benjamin Franklin "Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation", a wise man indeed.

 

[TheGame]

Just to clarify - you have yet to see Bradley's blood values and yet already have the explaination?

I have yet to make my mind up about Bradley - so I would be interested in any discussion.
But to take another quote of Benjamin Franklin "Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation", a wise man indeed.

I really must read more of Franklin. Every quote I have seen appeals to me greatly.

I have been in the privileged position to see several instances of Bradley's blood values. However, it seems that a certain set are of most interest to this thread; Those are the ones of concern to me.

And now to rest. A long day in the saddle awaits.

TG

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I really must read more of Franklin. Every quote I have seen appeals to me greatly.

I have been in the privileged position to see several instances of Bradley's blood values. However, it seems that a certain set are of most interest to this thread; Those are the ones of concern to me.

And now to rest. A long day in the saddle awaits.

TG

Having a computer with internet connection is certainly a privilege I do not take for granted - here is the link to Bradley's blood values.
The numbers that have been subject for debate being from the Tour under 'Sion'.

Here is another Franklin quote for you, ah, Aretha Franklin this time, about truth and honesty..... sing it in your best Jonathan Vaughters voice.

I would like to see you play your cards
Reveal your hands and show your heart
Maybe we could get it back

With truth and honesty that's what we need to hold on
To the good stuff we believe in
Before we land up loose and sad and free
Before we find that it's gone
We could pull it back together, truth and honesty
Open up your hands, show me your heart...

 

[Hugh Januss]

Now, returning to Wigans, I would be interested to see this solid evidence, in particular the blood values as I have not had the benefit of studying them.

I have been in the privileged position to see several instances of Bradley's blood values.

Sooo.........which is it?

 

[TheGame]

Both?

Sooo.........which is it?

You will no doubt appreciate there is a significant difference between having seen figures, and being able to effectively remember with accuracy single instances, in this case the one in question. Thank you for the link.

On the surface, It could easily be explained, or equally easily exploited depending on your opinion or motivation. The query is over the rest day figure. It could easily be a result of a iron rich meal the night before, steak and liver cassoulet perhaps, it is not uncommon for the diet prior to a rest day to be different to a riding day. At the conclusion of a two hour training ride, (on what was a remarkably fine day if you remember) with just one water bottle. Returning to the team hotel, dehydrated and being welcomed by testers. The increase is fairly small. An explainable anomaly.

It could equally, if you felt so inclined to take it that way, a result of a short helicopter ride to a secret location for a "top up" under the guise of "checking out the TT course".

Everything is open to equally plausible explanations. It depends on your opinion, or motivation I guess.

TG

 

[BroDeal]

Sooo.........which is it?

Jeebus. He cannot even keep his lies straight.

 

[Race Radio]

The query is over the rest day figure. It could easily be a result of a iron rich meal the night before, steak and liver cassoulet perhaps, it is not uncommon for the diet prior to a rest day to be different to a riding day. At the conclusion of a two hour training ride, (on what was a remarkably fine day if you remember) with just one water bottle. Returning to the team hotel, dehydrated and being welcomed by testers. The increase is fairly small. An explainable anomaly.

Iron rich meal?

Blood tests are taken in the morning.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You will no doubt appreciate there is a significant difference between having seen figures, and being able to effectively remember with accuracy single instances, in this case the one in question. Thank you for the link.

On the surface, It could easily be explained, or equally easily exploited depending on your opinion or motivation. The query is over the rest day figure. It could easily be a result of a iron rich meal the night before, steak and liver cassoulet perhaps, it is not uncommon for the diet prior to a rest day to be different to a riding day. At the conclusion of a two hour training ride, (on what was a remarkably fine day if you remember) with just one water bottle. Returning to the team hotel, dehydrated and being welcomed by testers. The increase is fairly small. An explainable anomaly.

It could equally, if you felt so inclined to take it that way, a result of a short helicopter ride to a secret location for a "top up" under the guise of "checking out the TT course".

Everything is open to equally plausible explanations. It depends on your opinion, or motivation I guess.

TG

As I stated earlier - I have yet to make up my mind on Wiggans and last years Tour.

However your post does little to reassure me - you are trying to suggest a paid modern professional goes off on a 2 hour training ride in the searing heat of mid July with one 750ml bottle? And then to complete the throwback to the 1950's has steak and liver?

I think you will find Alan Lim disagrees with your assesment:
Allen Lim: "He just cooks food that is tasty and has is great, quality nutrition. There is a lot of diversity on the menu. He leans on the gluten free side, which is beneficial for some of our riders. We made some observations of other team this first week, and after the race we see guys from other team drinking Cokes or eating sandwiches. We have a full re-hydration and nutrition staff getting guys real food and specific recovery drinks right away. The whole thing is protecting the guys from stress and keeping morale high".

 

[Race Radio]

As I stated earlier - I have yet to make up my mind on Wiggans and last years Tour.

However your post does little to reassure me - you are trying to suggest a paid modern professional goes off on a 2 hour training ride in the searing heat of mid July with one 750ml bottle? And then to complete the throwback to the 1950's has steak and liver?

I think you will find Alan Lim disagrees with your assesment:
Allen Lim: "He just cooks food that is tasty and has is great, quality nutrition. There is a lot of diversity on the menu. He leans on the gluten free side, which is beneficial for some of our riders. We made some observations of other team this first week, and after the race we see guys from other team drinking Cokes or eating sandwiches. We have a full re-hydration and nutrition staff getting guys real food and specific recovery drinks right away. The whole thing is protecting the guys from stress and keeping morale high".

Alan was wrong. The key to a good Tour is not rice cakes but steak and kidney pie.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, I'm going to predict that Brad wins the 2010 Tour by 15 minutes. Why? Well, in almost every race from the 2009 Giro and back he rode with the autobus. But his performance increased so much at the Tour it showed he had found the key: Weight loss and steak and liver cassoulet. With that kind of dramatic improvement, and the biological passport weeding out the drug cheats, I'd expect nothing less from Brad this year. The only thing is, he really should have joined Radio Shack at the season's start, as I hear they have the best steak and liver cassoulet chef in the business.

 

[TheGame]

Agreed

I'm going to go out on a limb here, I'm going to predict that Brad wins the 2010 Tour by 15 minutes. Why? Well, in almost every race from the 2009 Giro and back he rode with the autobus. But his performance increased so much at the Tour it showed he had found the key: Weight loss and steak and liver cassoulet. With that kind of dramatic improvement, and the biological passport weeding out the drug cheats, I'd expect nothing less from Brad this year. The only thing is, he really should have joined Radio Shack at the season's start, as I hear they have the best steak and liver cassoulet chef in the business.

The liver cassoulet was purely an example. My point is, the increase is small, and a number of suggestions can satisfactorily explain it, diet, dehydration, many things. Many things can affect the HG levels, and the fluctuation was not enough to require further investigation by the UCI.

You may of course prefer the helicopter to a secret location theory; That is your choice.

What is important, is that whatever our views, they are backed up with judgement, and are informed.

Cleanliness is a very difficult thing to prove. It is far easier to raise suspicion and doubt. One of the cheif proponents of doubt on this thread, and on looking around the forum, a proponent of much of the diatribe towards Wiggins is Blackcat. Perhaps Mr Blackcat would like to explain to us all his motives, his reasoning, because much of what he perpetuates to be truth, and fact, is in fact borne out of something very different. Maybe it's time to ask him about that.

 

[the big ring]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, I'm going to predict that Brad wins the 2010 Tour by 15 minutes. Why? Well, in almost every race from the 2009 Giro and back he rode with the autobus. But his performance increased so much at the Tour it showed he had found the key: Weight loss and steak and liver cassoulet. With that kind of dramatic improvement, and the biological passport weeding out the drug cheats, I'd expect nothing less from Brad this year. The only thing is, he really should have joined Radio Shack at the season's start, as I hear they have the best steak and liver cassoulet chef in the business.

Another advantage to joining Radio Shack would be learning the secret "saddle adjustment" skill that catapulted LA from second group to front group after the rest day...

 

[Race Radio]

My point is, the increase is small, and a number of suggestions can satisfactorily explain it, diet, dehydration, many things.

The increase is small if the measurement was taken during a normal training period or the off season, however in this case it was not.This was the third week of a Grand Tour. One in which Wiggins was fighting for a podium spot.

Hct levels of riders in GT's have been measured for decades. There have been studies that show a drop of 12% for the average rider in the third week. Wiggins had an increase, not a decrease. This is why some experts questioned his numbers.

 

[Baited By Race Radio]

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[Race Radio]

A drop of that size would make someone anaemic, surely? Maybe he was refering to another blood value because from a lay man's point of view that doesn't make sense to me. If someone's crit is 42, is it really going to go down to 30? That would make someone dangerously ill, wouldn't it? How fit were these riders?

It appears math is not your strong suit. A 12% decrease would result in a HCt of 37

 

[Baited By Race Radio]

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[Baited By Race Radio]

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[BroDeal]

42 takeaway 12 is 30.

I suggest:

 

[cotterpin]

not 12% of 100
but 12% of 42
duh

 

[Ferminal]

You're right it's not, but I'm pretty sure 42 takeaway 12 is 30.



Their crits started at 49 percent?

"12%" implies a base of the original number (in this case 42)

"12 percentage points" implies a base of 100.

(If you're referring to a change, that is).

 

[TheGame]

A good point

Wiggins values were widely praised when they were released.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-values-point-to-cleaner-peloton

A very good point my friend.

TG

 

[Baited By Race Radio]

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[Baited By Race Radio]

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