Wiggins speaks about drugs

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Jul 30, 2009
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Digger said:
Yes exactly.......
Yep I agree it is one possible answer, and one of the more possible ones. Another is he lost weight off his upper body where it is useful in a pursuit, particularly a team pursuit, but not so much use on a 20km climb at 8% avg.

I extend Brad McGee the same courtesy, and Cuddles. Sastre too.

For me, this is not a nationalistic or anglophone thing, which is the usual sledge chucked out it's just about clinging onto a little bit of hope that someone can do well in a plausible way.

I would in no way be surprised if any of the 4 mentioned got busted, disappointed yes, but this is bike racing, my eyes are open and I know the score. Doesn't mean I can't have dreams...

The only certainty there is in bike racing to me, is everyone clean, or everyone dopes, Contador wins either way.

(If Cancellara carefully dropped 5kg I would expect him to be less dominant in the TT, but not by much, and he would still win a lot of races, but I think his ability in the mountains would shoot up. In fact I am really looking forward to when he does it.)

(Ps the Gruppeto argument really doesnt work either, if you are riding as lead out man, or saving energy for the final TT in a 3 week GT, then you SHOULD be in the gruppeto, saving as much energy as possible. The contrast people need to focus on is not Wiggo's performance in the bus when he has another job to do, but his 20 minute threshold power as a TT or pursuit rider compared to his threshold power when it counts when he he is a protected rider. If you think about the latter then his position last year is less of a surprise. He put the power down in the TTs, was well protected by some super domestiques for most of the rest of the time. Then when it mattered, he did OK on Andorra, Verbier, hung in on Ventoux and got nailed on the Queen Stage. He did nothing that exceptional, but rode a smart race.)

(Why am I bothering?)
 
Jul 25, 2009
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gingerwallaceafro said:
Yes you are :)After he got 4th he was the best thing since sliced bread, since he left Garmin, he's been a cheating, dirty rotten scoundrel.
He wasn't the best thing since sliced bread in this forum. Soon after he got 4th, both he and JV came under heavy sustained fire.
 
Apr 25, 2009
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I Watch Cycling In July said:
He wasn't the best thing since sliced bread in this forum. Soon after he got 4th, both he and JV came under heavy sustained fire.
I'll beg to differ on that one. To begin with it was delayed, a smattering of skirmish fire I'd call it, rather than 'heavy sustained fire'.

Wiggo was a lot more popular here whilst at Garmin pre SKY, with the height of his popularity around the time of the tour's end. He's become more and more unpopular since.

Since then it seems he's burnt the star spangled banner, tripped Mary Decker up and declared Apple pie as the food of Satan.
 
Apr 25, 2009
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Digger said:
You come up with that all by yourself? So original and clever. Are the leprechaun references on the way? D***head.
I did, with a little help from Little Britain, where the woman from Weight Watchers never understands the Asian lady and asks her 'What's that love, you want some curry?'. Slays me every time.

I think you rather tee'd yourself up old boy.
 
Winterfold said:
Yep I agree it is one possible answer, and one of the more possible ones. Another is he lost weight off his upper body where it is useful in a pursuit, particularly a team pursuit, but not so much use on a 20km climb at 8% avg.

I extend Brad McGee the same courtesy, and Cuddles. Sastre too.

For me, this is not a nationalistic or anglophone thing, which is the usual sledge chucked out it's just about clinging onto a little bit of hope that someone can do well in a plausible way.

I would in no way be surprised if any of the 4 mentioned got busted, disappointed yes, but this is bike racing, my eyes are open and I know the score. Doesn't mean I can't have dreams...

The only certainty there is in bike racing to me, is everyone clean, or everyone dopes, Contador wins either way.

(If Cancellara carefully dropped 5kg I would expect him to be less dominant in the TT, but not by much, and he would still win a lot of races, but I think his ability in the mountains would shoot up. In fact I am really looking forward to when he does it.)

(Ps the Gruppeto argument really doesnt work either, if you are riding as lead out man, or saving energy for the final TT in a 3 week GT, then you SHOULD be in the gruppeto, saving as much energy as possible. The contrast people need to focus on is not Wiggo's performance in the bus when he has another job to do, but his 20 minute threshold power as a TT or pursuit rider compared to his threshold power when it counts when he he is a protected rider. If you think about the latter then his position last year is less of a surprise. He put the power down in the TTs, was well protected by some super domestiques for most of the rest of the time. Then when it mattered, he did OK on Andorra, Verbier, hung in on Ventoux and got nailed on the Queen Stage. He did nothing that exceptional, but rode a smart race.)

(Why am I bothering?)
Ah hello, do you not think a GC rider wants energy for the final TT?

Fact is that he was barely making time limits prior to last year. Saving energy as you say is one thing....not making time limits because you're saving energy...yeah that makes sense. :rolleyes:....and in fairness he did not get 'nailed' in the Queen stage...he came seventh. He came sixth, the day after, in the TT...Two secs behind millar, who was presumably 'saving himself' as you say, prior to that....Not bad.
Wiggins was not a lead out man with Cofidis by the way. And his efforts, when with Columbia were negligible - because he hardly rode for them in hte first place.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Of course he doped. A rider could go from the groupetto to the front group if the if the level of the front group had dropped, but it hasn't.

Wiggins climed Mt Ventoux in approximately the same time as Ullrich did in 2000, except Wiggins was riding into a block headwind for most of it.
here's the riders Ullrich finished with that year;
1 Marco Pantani (Ita) Mercatone Uno-Albacom 4.15.11
2 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service
3 Joseba Beloki (Spa) Festina 0.25
4 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom 0.29
5 Santiago Botero (Col) Kelme-Costa Blanca 0.48
6 Roberto Heras (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca
7 Richard Virenque (Fra) Team Polti 1.17

There is no possible way a clean could ride at that level, especially not on the 2nd last day of a 3 week tour.

People wonder why riders dope, in this case it was to get a £1m a year contract with a new team that he obviously new for a long time he would be joining, and wouldn't have got that big a contract without that result.
 
gingerwallaceafro said:
I did, with a little help from Little Britain, where the woman from Weight Watchers never understands the Asian lady and asks her 'What's that love, you want some curry?'. Slays me every time.

I think you rather tee'd yourself up old boy.
Fact is that you'd like to think it's mainly 'Yanks' who think he doped. When the truth is that far more nationalities are of that view. So essentially, your 'theory' is b*****.
 
Jul 30, 2009
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OK Moller might be making a point that it is difficult to argue against.

Does anyone have the split times from Bedoin for the Ventoux ascent from last year? I had assumed they werent that fast (by pro standards) but if they went up it the same speed as Pantani...
 
Jul 30, 2009
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Digger said:
Ah hello, do you not think a GC rider wants energy for the final TT?
Yes of course, but he will be thinking about his performance vis a vis other GC riders, rather than a stage win, and he will have been protected etc etc

Anyway rather than argue the tactical logic of this, Moller might have a good point. If someone gets up there in 60-65 minutes, at the end of last stage after 3 weeks, well...
 
Apr 25, 2009
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Digger said:
Fact is that you'd like to think it's mainly 'Yanks' who think he doped. When the truth is that far more nationalities are of that view. So essentially, your 'theory' is b*****.
Oh, to be sure, 'tis as you've pointed out a generalisation so it is ;)

From what I've seen it has been mainly Americans instigating the smearing, which is what it is, as there isn't any evidence at all.

My theory may have holes in it :rolleyes:, but it isn't tooo wide of the mark. 5 pages on Vandevelde in The Clinic, 42 on Wiggo, both of whom are as clean as they come.

It's been good to see who on here thinks Wiggins is a doper, each person's judgement has lost credibility in my eyes.

Dogger, when you started with that Oirish shoite, I was half kidding when I said you lost me there... If you played such a cheap trick by asking me the same thing in my presence I would kick you in your nuts.
 
gingerwallaceafro said:
Oh, to be sure, 'tis as you've pointed out a generalisation so it is ;)

From what I've seen it has been mainly Americans instigating the smearing, which is what it is, as there isn't any evidence at all.

My theory may have holes in it :rolleyes:, but it isn't tooo wide of the mark. 5 pages on Vandevelde in The Clinic, 42 on Wiggo, both of whom are as clean as they come.

It's been good to see who on here thinks Wiggins is a doper, each person's judgement has lost credibility in my eyes.

Dogger, when you started with that Oirish shoite, I was half kidding when I said you lost me there... If you played such a cheap trick by asking me the same thing in my presence I would kick you in your nuts.
I guess the whole question here is just how clean is "as clean as they come"? My own theory: if they are top 50 (or anywhere) in a GT, not very effin clean.
It's good to see that you draw the doping line at Wigans, but that may speak more to your own credibility than to anyone else's here.
 
Jul 25, 2009
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gingerwallaceafro said:
I'll beg to differ on that one. To begin with it was delayed, a smattering of skirmish fire I'd call it, rather than 'heavy sustained fire'.

Wiggo was a lot more popular here whilst at Garmin pre SKY, with the height of his popularity around the time of the tour's end. He's become more and more unpopular since.

Since then it seems he's burnt the star spangled banner, tripped Mary Decker up and declared Apple pie as the food of Satan.
Military figures of speech aside, the idea that when Wigans left Garmin everyone here changed their mind about whether he doped is simple wrong, no matter how many times you restate it. For example, If you look in the "JV really wants to sign Contador" thread from last August, you will see that blackcat, Brodeal, Digger and escarabajo were all very clear then that they thought Wigans was doped. Resorting to accusations based on nationality only serves to demonstrate that you have nothing of substance to support your argument.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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I Watch Cycling In July said:
Military figures of speech aside, the idea that when Wigans left Garmin everyone here changed their mind about whether he doped is simple wrong, no matter how many times you restate it. For example, If you look in the "JV really wants to sign Contador" thread from last August, you will see that blackcat, Brodeal, Digger and escarabajo were all very clear then that they thought Wigans was doped. Resorting to accusations based on nationality only serves to demonstrate that you have nothing of substance to support your argument.
You're wasting you (digital) breath. He wants to believe that Wiggins is clean and so those who believe he isn't must have nefarious motives. I guess as a Dane I'm harbouring a deep seated hatred for Brits due to the bombardment of Copenhagen in 1807.
 
Cerberus said:
You're wasting you (digital) breath. He wants to believe that Wiggins is clean and so those who believe he isn't must have nefarious motives. I guess as a Dane I'm harbouring a deep seated hatred for Brits due to the bombardment of Copenhagen in 1807.
I think you're just sour that Mr. Chicken got done...
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Ferminal said:
I think you're just sour that Mr. Chicken got done...
I would be save that the Chicken is sour enough for the entire nation and then some.Studies shows that he cheers people up in a 20 miles radius by sucking sourness, misery and bitterness out of them like a black hole. Besides I'm a bit of a history buff, I'll stick with the Battle of Copenhagen.
 
gingerwallaceafro said:
Oh, to be sure, 'tis as you've pointed out a generalisation so it is ;)

From what I've seen it has been mainly Americans instigating the smearing, which is what it is, as there isn't any evidence at all.

My theory may have holes in it :rolleyes:, but it isn't tooo wide of the mark. 5 pages on Vandevelde in The Clinic, 42 on Wiggo, both of whom are as clean as they come.

It's been good to see who on here thinks Wiggins is a doper, each person's judgement has lost credibility in my eyes.

Dogger, when you started with that Oirish shoite, I was half kidding when I said you lost me there... If you played such a cheap trick by asking me the same thing in my presence I would kick you in your nuts.
And what do you think you'd have got back?

You started the American, 'yanks' thing, when you knew full well it was rubbish.
Next, you explain Wiggins' blood values to me...in relation to this third week, and then say there's no evidence.

CVV and Wiggins, clean as they come....based on what?
 
gingerwallaceafro said:
There's no other basis to Wiggins success other than hard work. He's always had the 'numbers'.

After he got 4th he was the best thing since sliced bread, since he left Garmin, he's been a cheating, dirty rotten scoundrel.

It leaves me to believe that a lot of the subversive, conspiracy theory loving yanks on here want to rubbish him as he's quite vocal and patriotic and finished better than any other American other than Lance Armstrong!

Oooh the hurt!
Ahhh, a graduate of the Internet Loon School of Argument. Don't have the facts to back up your beliefs? No problem. Just make sh!t up.

Let me get the theory straight. A group of hateful yanks--well, let's not stop at yanks. There are probably a few canucks and probably an aussie or two or ten. Heck, let's just say English speakers who don't live on an island (and are not Irish) have ganged up on Wigans because no one from their country (except Armstrong) finished higher in the GC standings than Wigans. What triggered the outpouring of hate was Wigans leaving Garmin. All those posts pointing out the suspiciousness of Wigans' performance between the middle of the Tour and the time Wigans announced he was leaving Garmin were imaginary. They never happened. They were a collective figment of the imagination, like unicorns and magnetic monopoles.

In a sport so rotten with doping that there have not been any grand tour wins by non-doping riders in nearly twenty years, it is perfectly normal for clean riders in their late twenties who get shelled by the laughing group on climbs and have never shown any significant results on the road to bound into the top five at the Tour after eating a few rice cakes. It happens all the time. Popeye has his spinach. Wigans has his rice cakes. It certainly should not raise eyebrows. The fact that a similar inexplicable bound into the Tour's top five happened to a rider on Wigans' team the year before is also not suspicious. Witih a few rice cakes Tommy D. might finish on the podium. Three different riders in three years would also not be suspect. Anyone who says differently must be hating on not just Wigans but have ulterior motives of make unbenefit glorious nation of Britain.

Have I got the gist of it?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Ahhh, a graduate of the Internet Loon School of Argument. Don't have the facts to back up your beliefs? No problem. Just make sh!t up.

Let me get the theory straight. A group of hateful yanks--well, let's not stop at yanks. There are probably a few canucks and probably an aussie or two or ten. Heck, let's just say English speakers who don't live on an island (and are not Irish) have ganged up on Wigans because no one from their country (except Armstrong) finished higher in the GC standings than Wigans. What triggered the outpouring of hate was Wigans leaving Garmin. All those posts pointing out the suspiciousness of Wigans' performance between the middle of the Tour and the time Wigans announced he was leaving Garmin were imaginary. They never happened. They were a collective figment of the imagination, like unicorns and magnetic monopoles.

In a sport so rotten with doping that there have not been any grand tour wins by non-doping riders in nearly twenty years, it is perfectly normal for clean riders in their late twenties who get shelled by the laughing group on climbs and have never shown any significant results on the road to bound into the top five at the Tour after eating a few rice cakes. It happens all the time. Popeye has his spinach. Wigans has his rice cakes. It certainly should not raise eyebrows. The fact that a similar inexplicable bound into the Tour's top five happened to a rider on Wigans' team the year before is also not suspicious. Witih a few rice cakes Tommy D. might finish on the podium. Three different riders in three years would also not be suspect. Anyone who says differently must be hating on not just Wigans but have ulterior motives of make unbenefit glorious nation of Britain.

Have I got the gist of it?
Vande Velde's jump was nowhere near that of Wiggins'...I'm not saying Vande Velde is clean, just the jump was not quite the same.
 
karlboss said:
Vande Velde's jump was nowhere near that of Wiggins'...I'm not saying Vande Velde is clean, just the jump was not quite the same.
The point is that the two jumps cast additional suspicion on the individual jumps.

Wigans leap is probably up there with Armstrong's in terms of crediblity. When you factor in that his teammate made a similar leap, the manager gave some rather ludicrous explanations (everything from gluten to rice cakes to fabrics that hold less sweat), and Wigans calling Garmin a second rate team that cannot support his goal of winning the Tour even as he leaves for a team with less support then the leap becomes even more suspect.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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gingerwallaceafro said:
Dogger, when you started with that Oirish shoite, I was half kidding when I said you lost me there... If you played such a cheap trick by asking me the same thing in my presence I would kick you in your nuts.
When I was in my final year of high school a debate began betweem my friends. One of whom is very bright and unashamed to hide it, declared that to win a fight the best method was to kick your opponent in the balls and run the off the other direction. Another friend then chimed in with his two cents. He said to the first friend that if he ever did that not only would that guy he kicked catch up with him, but many others would as well.

Morale of the story. Only cowards start fights by kicking another man in the nads. Grow some yourself and stop acting the woos. If you're going to attempt to threaten someone online with physical violence at least have the balls to say you'll punch them in the head. Only women and pussies kick men in the nads.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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gingerwallaceafro said:
My gut feeling is that Wiggins is as clean as they come. He likes to speak his mind in a time where most sportspeople come out with the usual tosh and what he does say is usually on the money (for me). Many seem to jump on what he says and take it to mean something else.

I think the main reason for this is that he left Garmin to go to Sky, rather than the way he did it, too. It's common in life to aspire for better, a central motivation for why sport exists - including cycling. Many people move jobs and in his case he was joining up with old friends and mentors. It's normal for professionals of differing types to move on, often with compensation packages going the other way, it could also be said that Wiggins would have been more 'underhanded' not to have followed his heart and to have stayed at Garmin.

There are 5 pages in The Clinic on Christian Vandevelde (who I also think is clean & a role model) and 40 on Brad. I think it's an American jealousy thing.... women scorned etc. ;)

Blackcat categorically stating that Wiggins is a doper earlier in the thread and then coming out in favour of Wiggins later :rolleyes:
You're British right. Just wondering who do you cheer for in F1? Hamilton or Button?

Speaking his mind? I've been calling everyone of his half truth misleading statements out. Wigans has been singing the same tune that LA has perfected. He has been doing this ever since last years Tour. When common sense was applied and his statements were correlated and compared to previous statements an under current that suggested doping approval at Sky was evident. Look at the old threads. The fact Wigans is British and manipulated Garmin to join Sky for some more dosh is irrelevant to most forumists. Apparently not to you, but that is your right. Calling Wigans out and pointing to the inconsistencies has nothing to do with nationality. It has to do with behavioural and character flaws.
 
May 18, 2009
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karlboss said:
Vande Velde's jump was nowhere near that of Wiggins'...I'm not saying Vande Velde is clean, just the jump was not quite the same.
I don't see how they can be gauged in this way IMO. Each had different roles prior to focusing on GC contention.
 
Apr 25, 2009
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Blimey guv, where to start...

Dogger, I like the yanks generally ;), I like Lance Armstrong... :D What I don't like are the subversive, too clever by far types that you often find on a forum or two. You know, the ones that on their bookshelves will have Michael Moore alongside Dan Brown.... What I don't like is when you call foul on me calling yanks, yanks, in your sanctimonious blarneyful way. There's no offence meant at all towards yanks. Asking me what that makes you.... ****around.... A whistleblower? Too clever by far? A no mark?

Cerberus, Lord Admiral Nelson (god rest his soul) was just doing his job, it was part of saving Europe! I think you're right, I'm probably as entrenched in my beliefs as many on here are entrenched in theirs.

BroDeal, I'm sorry I still can't take anything you say seriously at all... :)

Garlic Breath, Hamilton or Button I don't discriminate ;) Thanks for your little tale of morality I feel that my burden has lifted. Your probably right, fisticuffs is fairer and I probably would do my normal thing of swinging a haymaker that misses by a foot or so, when I should have set him up with the jab. Cyber agro is a pointless affair, I concede. I wouldn't get done by a mick though.

ChrisE, I agree with what you say, my gut feeling is that Wiggins doesn't shoot up with Gorilla's ***** and the like but might get help. He probably gets a taxi paid for on his expenses now and then.

When I say I think he's as clean as they come, I mean he doesn't take anything on the banned list of substances and nothing heavily performance enhancing. Marginal gains boys and girls..

L Carnitine, that's alright isn't it? L Glutamine? I'm way over the limit caffeine limit most days...
 
gingerwallaceafro said:
Blimey guv, where to start...

Dogger, I like the yanks generally ;), I like Lance Armstrong... :D What I don't like are the subversive, too clever by far types that you often find on a forum or two. You know, the ones that on their bookshelves will have Michael Moore alongside Dan Brown.... What I don't like is when you call foul on me calling yanks, yanks, in your sanctimonious blarneyful way. There's no offence meant at all towards yanks. Asking me what that makes you.... ****around.... A whistleblower? Too clever by far? A no mark?

Cerberus, Lord Admiral Nelson (god rest his soul) was just doing his job, it was part of saving Europe! I think you're right, I'm probably as entrenched in my beliefs as many on here are entrenched in theirs.

BroDeal, I'm sorry I still can't take anything you say seriously at all... :)

Garlic Breath, Hamilton or Button I don't discriminate ;) Thanks for your little tale of morality I feel that my burden has lifted. Your probably right, fisticuffs is fairer and I probably would do my normal thing of swinging a haymaker that misses by a foot or so, when I should have set him up with the jab. Cyber agro is a pointless affair, I concede. I wouldn't get done by a mick though.

ChrisE, I agree with what you say, my gut feeling is that Wiggins doesn't shoot up with Gorilla's ***** and the like but might get help. He probably gets a taxi paid for on his expenses now and then.

When I say I think he's as clean as they come, I mean he doesn't take anything on the banned list of substances and nothing heavily performance enhancing. Marginal gains boys and girls..
L Carnitine, that's alright isn't it? L Glutamine? I'm way over the limit caffeine limit most days...
Are you high or just drunk? You're not well either way........

Clean as they come...based on what? Because he said so?
 

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