Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

[Cyivel]

Cheers mate this is the 3rd thread you've posted that in.

 

[Cyivel]

I guess your username is parrot.

 

[Parrot23]

"Snivel", maybe you should learn to count--and read

 

[willbick]

parrot is right. god knows why contador keeps attacking from miles out over and over again.

 

[Cyivel]

Learn to count--and read--snivel.

I didn't count on you deleting one of the times you posted it!

 

[peterst6906]

parrot is right. god knows why contador keeps attacking from miles out over and over again.

The old Contador could and/or it doesn't matter what you do it in the lead up races, it only counts later in the season. May as well stretch the legs in race conditions and get a good measure of what your opponents have. Makes setting the targets easier to set.

 

[Parrulo]

parrot is right. god knows why contador keeps attacking from miles out over and over again.

because that worked for nearly 70 years of cycling history, it just happens to be that sky now have domestiques strong enough to bring back the favourites attacks, something which was unthinkable in the past, particularly the 70's and 80's.

sky is just the epitome of a trend that started in the 90's with the introduction of EPO

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Bertie is still racing as if he's still on a full program (burning matches that don't stick). Don't mean to be rude, but this guy doesn't t exactly have a lot of lightbulbs on at the moment in the grey tissue. How long does it take for his brain to adjust? It's been a few years now. How long does it take?

I think Alberto is doing it right.

You don't wait till Sky starts to attack before you launch your own attack.

That's racing tactics 101.

Race your own race. Race to your strengths, and, if the opportunity arises, at the weak point of your opponents.

Do you expect Alberto to just stay with the Sky train and make the same time and then let the TT decide the result?

Win or lose, I prefer an attacking rider than a wheel sucker, as do most.

But to say his tactics are wrong is to miss the point or reality of bike racing tactics entirely.

 

[airstream]

Ok, I see your point, but I meant putting a train together that has the same max speed as USP had. But it's now very likely that some teams have a more advanced system, causing them to dominate.

Yes, but we can not objectively compare a qualitative climbing content in both teams. Uran and Henao are young climbers getting 6-7th spots in the Giro. Cataldo is a guy of top-10 in the Giro. Objectively, the guys has successful experience of riding for themselves. In USPS we had an elite climber Heras + a working horses Chechu Rubeira and Tricky Manolo Beltran. But in my view the first trio is objectively stronger. In addition, these 2 works are anyway a bit different. LA's train was oriented on an instrain demolition with a subsequent leader attack, on the other hand Sky train serves as a sort of the security cordon which neutralize attacks up to a certain moment. Though, I wouldn't underrate Froome in this regard. IMO, he is quite shy at the moment whereas he could be good against Alberto in open fight mano to mano as well. But train scheme is obviously safer.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Bertie is still racing as if he's still on a full program (burning matches that don't stick).

How do you know he's no longer on a doping program?

Don't mean to be rude, but this guy doesn't exactly have a lot of lightbulbs on at the moment in the grey tissue. How long does it take for his brain to adjust? It's been a few years now. How long does it take?

man that's harsh, very harsh

He's a great rider obviously, and is worshipped and given a complete free pass (all of this garbage about the "return of the king", etc., after his banning) by those who justifiably hated Lance and who now also hate Sky right now, but the above is just calling a spade a spade.

yes he is a great rider and he is worshiped by some but "a complete free pass" really I don't think so

 

[Franklin]

Don't mean to be rude, but this guy doesn't t exactly have a lot of lightbulbs on at the moment in the grey tissue. How long does it take for his brain to adjust?

Considering his palmares you are selling his tactical prowess short. You don't win that much if you can't read a race.

 

[airstream]

In his career Contador was on both sides of the fence. Earlier he had obviously doping edge over others. Today probably others have it. He should handle this philosophically. It it just a matter of what we call 'normal'. A few years later Sky can become such a normal as contador is nowadays. And when somebody will beat them, some fans will necessarily shout:'Look! It is not normal!!!' So IMO we shouldn't be too categorical in our estimations. It is just the time that changes.

 

[jamesmasters]

There is a lot to admire about Contador's bravery. The problem is that, without chemical assistance, attacking in the way he does is simply a losing tactic.

What the main forum was saying until the Oman race, that he would come back and crush all, was always very questionable. It was impossible to know how much of an advantage he had gained from doping, and whether he would be the same rider.

I think in the main forums people vote with their hearts rather than their heads. Like in the Giro thread where apparently Nibali is the favorite over Wiggins. Yeah, cos Nibali is going to ride away from the Sky train in the mountains and put time into Wiggins in the time trials. That's really going to happen.

 

[airstream]

There is a lot to admire about Contador's bravery. The problem is that, without chemical assistance, attacking in the way he does is simply a losing tactic.

What the main forum was saying until the Oman race, that he would come back and crush all, was always very questionable. It was impossible to know how much of an advantage he had gained from doping, and whether he would be the same rider.

I think in the main forums people vote with their hearts rather than their heads. Like in the Giro thread where apparently Nibali is the favorite over Wiggins. Yeah, cos Nibali is going to ride away from the Sky train in the mountains and put time into Wiggins in the time trials. That's really going to happen.

Rather most people confuse attacking style and effectiveness IMO. These 2 things often don't coincide.

 

[Walkman]

because that worked for nearly 70 years of cycling history, it just happens to be that sky now have domestiques strong enough to bring back the favourites attacks, something which was unthinkable in the past, particularly the 70's and 80's.

sky is just the epitome of a trend that started in the 90's with the introduction of EPO

Contador fans complaining about other riders EPO abuse, love it! What goes around, come around!

 

[Parrot23]

I think Alberto is doing it right.

You don't wait till Sky starts to attack before you launch your own attack.

That's racing tactics 101.

Race your own race. Race to your strengths, and, if the opportunity arises, at the weak point of your opponents.

Do you expect Alberto to just stay with the Sky train and make the same time and then let the TT decide the result?

Win or lose, I prefer an attacking rider than a wheel sucker, as do most.

But to say his tactics are wrong is to miss the point or reality of bike racing tactics entirely.

This is just so very confused, conflating all sorts of things, so I'm not going to respond.

 

[Parrot23]

How do you know he's no longer on a doping program?



man that's harsh, very harsh



yes he is a great rider and he is worshiped by some but "a complete free pass" really I don't think so

It's not directed at Bertie but at the haters of others (and you're definitely not one--but they know who they are) who give Bertie a complete free pass on the doping front. A wonderful disjunction on their part.

 

[Parrot23]

Rather most people confuse attacking style and effectiveness IMO. These 2 things often don't coincide.

+1 Absolutely, esp. when the rider's underlying program starts to change in the presence of the biopassport, and the rider forgets about this when out on the road.

 

[hrotha]

+1 Absolutely, esp. when the rider's underlying program starts to change in the presence of the biopassport, and the rider forgets about this when out on the road.

Is that what happened to Contador, though? Because in that case explaining away the 2011 Giro is kinda hard (or the 2009 and 2010 Tours, for that matter. The biopassport was already in effect by then).

 

[Ferminal]

Well he had the "off" year in 2008 (which on paper is his best ) where only really Angliru was astonishing. Then came back in 2009 as good as he was in 2007. 2010 maybe not so good but that was a weird race and still there was Tourmalet. There is a clear drop at least since he tested positive, as anyone who doesn't rate beating a crap Nibali and Scarponi could tell you. It's too early to write him off though, he may take on more risk if that is what's needed to win the Tour.

 

[Parrot23]

The problem, I think, is that things are moving, and do move, in the background.

We have no idea what the UCI etc. are actually doing, warnings going out, nudges here and there, discussions and warnings to DS's, whatever. Look at the Katusha imbroglio.

My impression is that Alberto is looking scared (just my own impression, and I could be completely wrong), and it's not of his opponents on the road. No way! It's just that things are much more complicated for him, I think.

 

[Parrot23]

...he may take on more risk if that is what's needed to win the Tour.

Yes, Ferminal, this is what I mean by "complicated" and riders getting scared.

 

[Beech Mtn]

OK, continuing a discussion from the Contador thread in the racing section about how Alberto doesn't look the same as in the old days:

It's my opinion that we are now seeing a clean or much cleaner Contador. Still has the kick, but can't make it stick. I think, given his ban, he's not willing to risk doping to the degree he could have done in the past. Can't risk a life ban, going through another doping scandal, tossing himself and his family into another media storm, etc.

I am also of the opinion that Riis' teams don't have nearly the UCI protection that Johan's teams had through favorable connections or that the current version of Astana may have through financial connections. Although hiring Roche is certainly a step in the right direction towards better ties to the UCI.

I question whether UCI was initially prepared to coverup AC's clen positive (likely in exchange for cash), but may have then decided to leak the positive to the media after Riis made noises about hiring MRasmussen. (Admittedly, this part is maybe just coincidence & I'm not sure I believe this wholeheartedly myself - but I'm open to the possibility that the leak came from UCI instead of Cologne lab, & could've been tied in to the Chicken blacklist)

Anyway, I suspect this is a much cleaner Contador, and if so, he still shows quite a bit of talent, still at the pointy end of races, not turning into packfill. Let's not act like all is lost just yet.

 

[LaFlorecita]

OK, continuing a discussion from the Contador thread in the racing section about how Alberto doesn't look the same as in the old days:

It's my opinion that we are now seeing a clean or much cleaner Contador. Still has the kick, but can't make it stick. I think, given his ban, he's not willing to risk doping to the degree he could have done in the past. Can't risk a life ban, going through another doping scandal, tossing himself and his family into another media storm, etc.

I am also of the opinion that Riis' teams don't have nearly the UCI protection that Johan's teams had through favorable connections or that the current version of Astana may have through financial connections. Although hiring Roche is certainly a step in the right direction towards better ties to the UCI.

I question whether UCI was initially prepared to coverup AC's clen positive (likely in exchange for cash), but may have then decided to leak the positive to the media after Riis made noises about hiring MRasmussen. (Admittedly, this part is maybe just coincidence & I'm not sure I believe this wholeheartedly myself - but I'm open to the possibility that the leak came from UCI instead of Cologne lab, & could've been tied in to the Chicken blacklist)

Anyway, I suspect this is a much cleaner Contador, and if so, he still shows quite a bit of talent, still at the pointy end of races, not turning into packfill. Let's not act like all is lost just yet.

I don't believe finishing podium in races like T-A is possible without doping when his previous performances were on a huge doping program. Anyway the tour will tell everything, without doping or with very little doping I think he'll barely finish top 10.

By the way this also doesn't make sense with the 2011 Giro in mind.

I think he is just too old, I guess his peak year was 2009. It's only normal that he starts declining now. (and yes for Alberto only #1 is good, if he consistently can't come #1 he sucks. So yes all is lost, he is not the same rider anymore and it's sad but that's the way it is)

 

[Beech Mtn]

I don't believe finishing podium in races like T-A is possible without doping when his previous performances were on a huge doping program. Anyway the tour will tell everything, without doping or with very little doping I think he'll barely finish top 10.

By the way this also doesn't make sense with the 2011 Giro in mind.

I think he is just too old, I guess his peak year was 2009. It's only normal that he starts declining now. (and yes for Alberto only #1 is good, if he consistently can't come #1 he sucks. So yes all is lost, he is not the same rider anymore and it's sad but that's the way it is)

So you think he's still doping, but doesn't have it anymore even with the dope? Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I tend to think of Alberto as a once-in-a-generation talent (that yes, has been enhanced by doping). He's either scaled back his use, or others have stepped up with something AC either doesn't have, doesn't respond to, or doesn't want to risk taking.

As for 2011 Giro, he may have had some protection from the organizers (and yes was doping at that race). I think the protection and deals that go on behind the scenes can be powerful.

Contador started winning early & therefore may well fall off early, but then some of these old guys have massive leaps in performance in their mid-30s - that seems to be a big sign towards doping. I just think he's not willing to risk it to the same level anymore.

That said, I expect lots of guys in the peloton to ramp up the programs that may have been scaled back recently. Guys aren't going to be happy getting beaten all the time - they'll go looking for their own marginal gains.