Will Contador help Armstrong on Ventoux?

[Ninety5rpm]

I think the difference is that Andy and Frank are at least relatively close in climbing ability, such that they can (as they did on the Queen Stage) work together to put time into their rivals. So far, I haven't seen any evidence that Lance can climb with the Schleck Brothers or Contador. Thus either Contador has to *** his own abilities to bring Lance along or Lance has to uncork some untapped reserves for Contador to be able to help him.

You're catching on, dude, you're catching on.

Yes, Contador would have to burn some of his energy in order to help Lance and Klodi conserve theirs. That's what helping means.

Maybe Contador has to even risk losing a minute or two to Andy so that Lance/Klodi get up near the top much fresher than Shreks, fresh enough to attack and get some time on their tired Luxie bro bu++s.

By the way, is Luxembourg the W Virginia of Europe in terms of, uh, close family relations?

 

[LaBici]

Contador will not pace Armstrong up the mountain. Why should he? Contador will ride tempo behind Kloden and Popo until the Schlecks attack, then he will follow their attacks until the last 2km where he will stomp away and take the stage by 0:20 or so. One final stamp on the Tour that he has dominated.

If Armstrong can follow him all the way up and then take him at the line, he'll win the stage. Otherwise, no.

dead on.

I don't believe that armstrong he will be able to follow the schlecks and contador. Contador 1st, Andy Schleck 2nd, Sastre 3rd.

 

[Publicus]

This kind of dark cynicism is bordering on pathetic, and obscures clear thinking, apparently.

You don't think Lance is smart enough to realize on the fly the accolades he would get for giving up his bike for the mellow johnny? Heck, he'd jump on that opportunity to have such a classy excuse for not getting on the podium... "I had to give my bike and time for the good of the team, that's what teamwork is all about. Livestrong RadioShack!".

He didn't realize that he wasn't even the 2nd strongest member of his current team, why would we think he would sacrifice on behalf of someone he clearly believes he's better than (just give him another year to get it together)?

 

[pedaling squares]

Given the way AC has ridden (take no prisoners) this year, I don't know what to expect. He doesn't need to attack, but that doesn't seem to matter.

No way should he be expected to work for LA. What he owes LA is a swift kick in the balls.

Wilcockson is in the bag for LA. He's been predicting AC's failure all tour. He's obviously not happy that AC won. Probably sad he won't sell as many copies of his book either.

Wilcockson lacks credibility given his financial investment in LA's success. I'm don't know what to expect either. No doubt the brothers will be attacking to get back those 34 seconds. Probably, we'll see some fallen contenders (Cadel/Sastre) trying to win the day. I just cannot see AC spending energy dragging LA and/or Klodi up to the Schlecks if they falter. Too much to risk, especially with AC having no loyaly to LA, or to JB, or probably even to Astana (who will want Vino to lead them next year).

 

[patriot]

will cantador help Armstrong on Ventoux

The dumbest part of the move was isolating himself.......

you can isolate yourself and win. How about isolating yourself and winning solo. Lance was isolated on numerous occassions during his 7 tour victories, did that stop him?
That is confidence he is riding with the bike and not riding with his mouth

He isolated himself and almost freewheeled to the finish. why did the brothers not attack him repeatedly to make time on him? because they could not do it. They could not leave him period.

 

[Publicus]

You're catching on, dude, you're catching on.

Yes, Contador would have to burn some of his energy in order to help Lance and Klodi conserve theirs. That's what helping means.

Maybe Contador has to even risk losing a minute or two to Andy so that Lance/Klodi get up near the top much fresher than Shreks, fresh enough to attack and get some time on their tired Luxie bro bu++s.

By the way, is Luxembourg the W Virginia of Europe in terms of, uh, close family relations?

I've been on dude. Lance doesn't have it. You sound like a Versus personality assuming that he does despite 3 weeks worth of evidence to the contrary.

Why a yellow jersey winner would risk any time for a domestique to gain a podium spot is beyond me. Do you have an example of ANY yellow jersey winner ever doing such a thing?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

It's better for the team and sponsor's? which sponsor Astana or radio shack? Bruyneel and Lance had their plans all along. Why did they not wait after the tour to make their announcement? Those two have just shafted Astana and you talking about good for sponsors. Witness Contador has kept his plans to himself while still with Astana. Bruyneel and Lance out there with their publicity stunt why not wait at the end of the tour?

Good questions. I also haven't seen anything official yet about Bruyneel's involvement with this new team. I'm wondering if he and Lance disagreed about announcement timing.

There is some bad blood between Astana and LA/JB, for sure, but it's not at all clear to me that JB/LA are responsible for it. I mean, it was Astana who did not pay those guys. And the whole Vino thing is strange.

Perhaps Lance has been delusional about how he will do on Ventoux and wanted this announced before then, so that his new sponsor will benefit.

 

[Publicus]

Good questions. I also haven't seen anything official yet about Bruyneel's involvement with this new team. I'm wondering if he and Lance disagreed about announcement timing.

There is some bad blood between Astana and LA/JB, for sure, but it's not at all clear to me that JB/LA are responsible for it. I mean, it was Astana who did not pay those guys. And the whole Vino thing is strange.

Perhaps Lance has been delusional about how he will do on Ventoux and wanted this announced before then, so that his new sponsor will benefit.

Here's the article from a day ago that links JB to the new team:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iGHUQyvKf3pMbjDGKWGs34GQbgjQ

 

[LaBici]

Contador

... will fly and take the stage win on Mount Ventoux.

He has to put his stamp on this tour after having to endure all the dis-respect by the media who keep focusing on Armstrong.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

For the sake of argument, please explain why Contador would do such a thing (see bolded portion and only with respect to Lance (Kloden is a different case))? Why transfer energy to a teammate who doesn't respect him, hasn't worked for him, and has treated him like a competitor rather than a teammate throughout (save the TTT)? In short, what has Lance done to date to earn Contador putting in work for Lance's podium aspirations?

Look, I think they actually both respect each other, and each feels the other has not shown him enough respect.

They both wanted to win, and so they did treat each other like competitors. AC announced this (about Levi as well Lance) a week or two before the start of the race even. The competition was there, naturally.

I think Lance did help, and Ligget pointed it out every time it happened, or came close to happening, or maybe sorta was gonna happen in his dreams. But there was some cooperation, for sure.

At this point it's a different situation. Contador has even announced (unbeknownst to me when I started this thread - perhaps he read it ) that he will try to help Lance stay on the podium, or maybe even get into second.

If he does it right, he's got nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

This is a team sport, and winning on the GC is the main goal, but it's not the only goal. If you can achieve secondary goals without risking your primary goal, why not?

By helping Lance Contador will be helping Alberto (just as Lance will be helping himself if he has to give up his bike for Contador).

 

[pedaling squares]

This kind of dark cynicism is bordering on pathetic, and obscures clear thinking, apparently.

You don't think Lance is smart enough to realize on the fly the accolades he would get for giving up his bike for the mellow johnny? Heck, he'd jump on that opportunity to have such a classy excuse for not getting on the podium... "I had to give my bike and time for the good of the team, that's what teamwork is all about. Livestrong RadioShack!".

Actually, what is pathetic is staying up at night just to get snotty on a bike forum! Seriously, where do you get the idea of the Great Benevolent Lance? He is very adept at using the media to portray an image of the consummate professional, the ultimate teammate, while AC has been riding with a blade in his back. I suspect that AC has been biting his tongue and we'll hear his true opinion in a few months. I just don't see AC wanting to do Lance any favours and I don't see Lance sacrificing his podium spot to keep AC on the top step. A spot on the podium at age 37 after a 3 year hiatus would be a way better plug for the new sponsor.

 

[rhubroma]

Man, the yellow jersey for the most number of stupid threads (number and quality)..goes to you

Yea, 95's also the same guy who tried to argue that Lance's statements about the Tour last year were not in fact offensive to Sastre at all...till Lance came out publicly apologizing to Sastre for having said those offensive things last year.

He just doesn't get some very basic things, like the fact that Contador owes no one anything on Astana and rather it is his team, and in particular his DS, that should be trying to make amends for the damage, in terms of unecessary stress and lack of unconditional support of the world's strongest rider, it has caused him.

 

[Psalmon]

LA/JB vs. Astana

It's better for the team and sponsor's? which sponsor Astana or radio shack? Bruyneel and Lance had their plans all along. Why did they not wait after the tour to make their announcement? Those two have just shafted Astana and you talking about good for sponsors.

It's even worse than that!

On the Saturday morning before Ventoux, Lance will announce that Sacha Baron Cohen has just signed with Livestrong Shack for the 2010/11 season.

Dirty B@stard.

 

[Publicus]

Look, I think they actually both respect each other, and each feels the other has not shown him enough respect.

They both wanted to win, and so they did treat each other like competitors. AC announced this (about Levi as well Lance) a week or two before the start of the race even. The competition was there, naturally.

I think Lance did help, and Ligget pointed it out every time it happened, or came close to happening, or maybe sorta was gonna happen in his dreams. But there was some cooperation, for sure.

At this point it's a different situation. Contador has even announced (unbeknownst to me when I started this thread - perhaps he read it ) that he will try to help Lance stay on the podium, or maybe even get into second.

If he does it right, he's got nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

This is a team sport, and winning on the GC is the main goal, but it's not the only goal. If you can achieve secondary goals without risking your primary goal, why not?

By helping Lance Contador will be helping Alberto (just as Lance will be helping himself if he has to give up his bike for Contador).

Contador is a class above Lance about this situation. He understood that JB, despite his public support of AC's leadership, was divided on the issue. Thus he never put much stock in the number 21, opting instead for the leadership to be decided on the road--showing supreme confidence in his own form. Lance, on the other hand, has been haggling for the team leadership throughout (check his twitter account or his comments to the media for the supporting evidence). From AC's stand point, he's already bested Lance in all the ways that he can be bested. So yes, he could be magnanimous to Lance, but my point is that Lance has done nothing to warrant it.

You don't have to educate me on the nature of the sport, I get it. I'm dealing with the current situation. And nothing Lance Armstrong has done warrants Contador giving his desires any consideration. You reap what you sow.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Why cant you guys get over it?

We had a funeral for two weeks and now there was racing and you are complaining about dumb move.

kloden Blew up, Contador attack did not last 30 seconds, when the brothers closed he sat on and the pace continued at the same pace they were doing previously. Koden could not close because he blew up plain and simple.

what you guys gave Cantador a a guage to see when Kloden will blow up?

what if Kloden held on and counter attacked and won the stage what would you say?
Do you hear Kloden Complaining?

I was a dissapointed when Kloden got dropped but I have gotten over it.
I really feel for Kloden who has done much more work than Lance and is only 14 seconds or so behind him. this is a guy who has made the podium while at the service of others.

We would have a much more competitive race if Kloden, Lance, Levi, and Contador were on different teams. Real attacks and agressive riding instead of the boring 1st two weeks.

Let the strongest win and no gifts

"Do you hear Kloden complaining?" Are you serious? Did you just get back from a backpacking trip with no TV or internet access?

Kloden made it absolutely clear in no uncertain term that he was royally pi$$ed off. And he's supposed to be a nice guy.

Klodi was on the rivet and his supposed teammate attacked. Yeah he slowed down when realized he blew it, but Kloden had been following at that pace, and that had been his limit. Now he had to ride solo, and speed up to close that gap. No way. He lost so much energy even the old guy caught him and then he couldn't even keep up with even him at the finish. Yes, all because of AC's attack. He was on the edge, and he probably could have stayed with the four of them all the way up to the top. But no... Contadork had to attack and break him for no apparent reason (stated reason: to gain time on Wiggins). What an idiot. Even Levi (speaking of non-geniuses) saw and tweeted about how stupid it was. Even the dork realized it and apologized for it.

But you... you STILL don't get it??? Really?

 

[Publicus]

"Do you hear Kloden complaining?" Are you serious? Did you just get back from a backpacking trip with no TV or internet access?

Kloden made it absolutely clear in no uncertain term that he was royally pi$$ed off. And he's supposed to be a nice guy.

First I have heard of that. Can you post a link with the quotation? Not doubting you, just that I'm pretty on top of the news about the Tour and I don't recall seeing that.

 

[ezratm]

And, so, I suppose you also think it would be inappropriate for Franck to try to get back on the podium, that instead he should just give his full support to Andy. And that Andy should not try to help Franck get ahead of Lance for the same reason you believe AC should not try to help LA stay in 3rd and keep ahead of Wiggins and Franck.

I should get some kind of award for asking a simple question that has produced the greatest number of illogical statements.

At the risk of lossing 2nd or the oportunity to attack AC if he is not having the best of days yeah Frank should support Andy
The big difference between Frank and Armstrong is that he has not had much difficulty staying on the front on climbs unlike armstrong
Frank can attack off the front and andy can watch AC and lance can do the same if he has the legs to attack then he can go for it but for AC or AS to tow there Domestic up a claimb is just *** at this stage of the race.
No leader at this point in the race would risk the tour to help a domestic get some glory, if the domestic is able to take it for themselfs and not leave there leader isolated then go for it. Anything other than that is just stupid

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Here's the article from a day ago that links JB to the new team:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iGHUQyvKf3pMbjDGKWGs34GQbgjQ

Muchos gracias. Interesting that there is still no official announcement of his connection now that the new team has been announced, AFAIK.

Maybe Lance is selling JB down the river for not believing in him?

 

[Publicus]

Muchos gracias. Interesting that there is still no official announcement of his connection now that the new team has been announced, AFAIK.

Maybe Lance is selling JB down the river for not believing in him?

LOL. JB gave the 38 year old, with a broken collar bone and no wins, FAR more consideration than he deserved.


Correction, he won the Nevada City Crit.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Actually, what is pathetic is staying up at night just to get snotty on a bike forum!

Touche! And OUCH!

Note to self: don't mess with pedaling squares.

Seriously, where do you get the idea of the Great Benevolent Lance? He is very adept at using the media to portray an image of the consummate professional, the ultimate teammate, while AC has been riding with a blade in his back. I suspect that AC has been biting his tongue and we'll hear his true opinion in a few months. I just don't see AC wanting to do Lance any favours and I don't see Lance sacrificing his podium spot to keep AC on the top step. A spot on the podium at age 37 after a 3 year hiatus would be a way better plug for the new sponsor.

Great Benevolent Lance??? How can I not get snotty with such a silly question? There is not a benevolent molecule in that sociopath's body, but he ain't stupid. He knows how he can benefit from engaging in apparently benevolent behavior. He's a master at that!

It's a complicated psychological situation, but, in the end, people help each other because they are ultimately helping themselves by doing so. Bike racing is no different. AC and LA can benefit by helping each other, and on Ventoux AC will be able to help LA more than there is potential the other way.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Yea, 95's also the same guy who tried to argue that Lance's statements about the Tour last year were not in fact offensive to Sastre at all...till Lance came out publicly apologizing to Sastre for having said those offensive things last year.

He just doesn't get some very basic things, like the fact that Contador owes no one anything on Astana and rather it is his team, and in particular his DS, that should be trying to make amends for the damage, in terms of unecessary stress and lack of unconditional support of the world's strongest rider, it has caused him.

Sigh. He apologized for how his comments ended up sounding, not for what he intended them to mean, which is what I was defending.

Sorry if that's too nuanced for you.

 

[pedaling squares]

LOL. JB gave the 38 year old, with a broken collar bone and no wins, FAR more consideration than he deserved.


Correction, he won the Nevada City Crit.

Very true. But I have to say that I am incredibly impressed with Lance's results at le Tour. 3rd place (for now) after 3 years off the bike... bloody impressive. Credit given where due. But what was he doing trying to align his team in support of him instead of the much younger/faster/stronger Contador?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Contador is a class above Lance about this situation. He understood that JB, despite his public support of AC's leadership, was divided on the issue. Thus he never put much stock in the number 21, opting instead for the leadership to be decided on the road--showing supreme confidence in his own form. Lance, on the other hand, has been haggling for the team leadership throughout (check his twitter account or his comments to the media for the supporting evidence). From AC's stand point, he's already bested Lance in all the ways that he can be bested. So yes, he could be magnanimous to Lance, but my point is that Lance has done nothing to warrant it.

You don't have to educate me on the nature of the sport, I get it. I'm dealing with the current situation. And nothing Lance Armstrong has done warrants Contador giving his desires any consideration. You reap what you sow.

And I've not argued that Lance has done something to warrant it.

I'm not suggesting that Contador help Lance for Lance's sake. Duh.
I'm suggesting that Contador help Lance to help himself.

"Not only did Contador win the Tour, but he got two teammates on the podium too, one of them the 7-time Tour champion."

But I'm doubtful that Contador is smart enough to get that angle.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Very true. But I have to say that I am incredibly impressed with Lance's results at le Tour. 3rd place (for now) after 3 years off the bike... bloody impressive. Credit given where due. But what was he doing trying to align his team in support of him instead of the much younger/faster/stronger Contador?

Dude, you're killing me.

Way too smart for this forum.

 

[Publicus]

And I've not argued that Lance has done something to warrant it.

I'm not suggesting that Contador help Lance for Lance's sake. Duh.
I'm suggesting that Contador help Lance to help himself.

"Not only did Contador win the Tour, but he got two teammates on the podium too, one of them the 7-time Tour champion."

But I'm doubtful that Contador is smart enough to get that angle.

I'm confused by your logic. Save Kloden, none of his teammates have killed themselves on his behalf (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall a 2004 Landis moment in this race). Contador doesn't need to help Lance for his sake, he's help his case by dominating the race. Contador is a great stage racer, whether or not his fellow teammates end up on podium is immaterial (I've yet to see someone singing his praises because Levi ended up on the podium at the 2007 Tour or the 2008 Vuelta, but then again I didn't Google such a thing).

Contador, if he learns English, is his own best ticket to success. He RACES.