Windy Mountain

[thehog]

perhaps with 'tailwind' RR means the guy had wind coming out of his tail.

I think so.

Froome was so relaxed he had time to radio into HQ and have a chat.

That’s how easy Ventoux is.

Do you think he was being told to "ease up" slightly?

Never seen anything so ridiculous.

 

[sniper]

Did you mean 29 seconds? Quintana was only 29 seconds slower then Froome.

Is 29 seconds on an almost hour long climb the line that separates clean from dirty or did Quintana also get a benefit from the tailwind that blew most of the climb? How about the 10 riders within 2 minutes of Froome, is that too close?

valid points.
But recall how Froome still had the strength and control to do a skype-conference with Yates. (Or was that on Ax3d?)

In my mind, Froome could have crushed the field with (much) more supremacy than the supremacy he already showed. I think he (and Sky as a team) clearly held back at times, both in the mountains and in the time trials. You must agree it looked that way.
There is no reason whatsoever to believe that Quintana, Rodriguez or Contador held back at any point. They went for it 100%, and whilst Froome was pedalling at 90%, he still took minutes off of their sorry asses.

 

[the sceptic]

the 2014 tour needs someone else on a full *** program or a strong tailwind.

Froome knew he was so much stronger than everyone else that there was no need for him to go full gas to win. Even Lance had some real competition at times but this tour was just a joke.

 

[Race Radio]

Nairo Quintana did not out time trial everyone. It should be expected that since climbing is his ONLY talent he can put in occasional top performances. Its far more unbelievable that the guy who without a private headwind at the end of the MSM tt would have ratched up the third fastest time trial in tdf history, was a further 30 seconds in front of him.

You might want to start a thread on TT's, this is about the wind on Ventoux.

The wind that caused Irizar's SRM to have a 5% variance over the CPL formula

 

[Von Mises]

Nairo Quintana did not out time trial everyone. It should be expected that since climbing is his ONLY talent he can put in occasional top performances. Its far more unbelievable that the guy who without a private headwind at the end of the MSM tt would have ratched up the third fastest time trial in tdf history, was a further 30 seconds in front of him.

Quintana´s ability to time trial or not has nothing to do with Froomes winning margin on Ventoux. There are several things against Froome what make him suspect, but this (how much time he put on Ventoux) is not one of these.

 

[Race Radio]

valid points.
But recall how Froome still had the strength and control to do a skype-conference with Yates. (Or was that on Ax3d?)

In my mind, Froome could have crushed the field with (much) more supremacy than the supremacy he already showed. I think he (and Sky as a team) clearly held back at times, both in the mountains and in the time trials. You must agree it looked that way.
There is no reason whatsoever to believe that Quintana, Rodriguez or Contador held back at any point. They went for it 100%, and whilst Froome was pedalling at 90%, he still took minutes off of their sorry asses.

I think you are misunderstanding what I have written. The fact that there was clearly a tailwind on the large majority of the climb is not declaration that Froome is clean, it is only pointing out the obvious and indicating that other climbs might be better indications of performance

 

[The Hitch]

You might want to start a thread on TT's, this is about the wind on Ventoux.

No i dont want to start a thread on tts, i am talking on Froomes performance on Ventoux. He did that performance on Ventoux while blowing everyone away on the tts. That makes the Ventoux performance more suspicious than the Ventoux performance of someone like Quintana who was losing in the tts since someone who focuses only on climbing will get more out of their body on a climb than someone who is also using up some talent on world beater tt stats.

Now to the subject of riders saying there was a tailwind. You have said it was multiple riders but only named Henderson. Can you comment on which other riders it was?

Also what is your take on the 2 posts that pointed out that since even you admit there were long sections of headwind, Henderson could not possibly have been telling the truth when he said it was tailwind all the way up.

 

[The Hitch]

Quintana´s ability to time trial or not has nothing to do with Froomes winning margin on Ventoux. There are several things against Froome what make him suspect, but this (how much time he put on Ventoux) is not one of these.

It is far more unbelievable to see someone dominating both mountains and time trials than it is to see them just dominate mountains.

Not that Quintana was dominating mountains in the first place. He was quite a bit inferior to Froome.

 

[sniper]

I think you are misunderstanding what I have written. The fact that there was clearly a tailwind on the large majority of the climb is not declaration that Froome is clean, it is only pointing out the obvious and indicating that other climbs might be better indications of performance

agreed on the underscored.
still not convinced of the bolded part.

 

[The Hitch]

Froome was strong, but his winning margin was not exceptional. Ventoux results from past:

ITT - Charly Gaul beat second fastest 31 sec, third fastest 2 min 53 sec and 10th fastest 4 min 54 sec.
Poulidor beat second fastest 6 sec, third fastest 1 min 29 sec and 10th fastest 3 min 14 sec.
Merckx beat second fastest 1 min 11 sec, third fastest 1 min 11 sec and 10th fastest 2 min 20 sec.
Thevenet beat second fastest 34 sec, third fastest 39 sec and 10th fastest 1 min 58 sec.
ITT - Bernard beat second fastest 1 min 39 sec, third fastest 1 min 51 sec and 10th fastest 4 min 18 sec.
Pantani beat second fastest 0 sec (st), third fastest 25 sec and 10th fastest 1 min 31 sec.
Armstrong beat second fastest 1 min 26 sec , third fastest 1 min 29 sec and 10th fastest 2 min 25 sec.
Schleck beat second fastest 0 sec(st) , third fastest 3 sec and 10th fastest 1 min 04 sec.
Froome beat second fastest 29 sec , third fastest 1 min 23 sec and 10th fastest 2 min 08 sec.

The Champs Elysee stage one year had Hinault and Zoetelmelk finish minutes ahead of the rest.

Yet in recent years, even in the most doped tours like 2009 where everyone was doping apart from saint wiggins, its been a sprint where everyone finishes together.

Point is, You cant compare racing from recent years to racing from the 80's and back. Didn't Merckx once win a Pau stage by minutes whereas Hushovd finished with the pack in 2010.

 

[sniper]

dan martin on headwind

by the way, did anybody see what Daniel Martin actually wrote in his blog (or was it twitter?)?
Allegedly he spoke of a headwind on the Ventoux, but I'd like to see the whole quote with context, and couldn't find it on the internet.

 

[Race Radio]

by the way, did anybody see what Daniel Martin actually wrote in his blog (or was it twitter?)?
Allegedly he spoke of a headwind on the Ventoux, but I'd like to see the whole quote with context, and couldn't find it on the internet.

I think it comes out on Tuesday

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You might want to start a thread on TT's, this is about the wind on Ventoux.

The wind that caused Irizar's SRM to have a 5% variance over the CPL formula

Why do you keep lying?

https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/360096384151584769

https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/360095234505445376

https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/356897718540582912

So, lets be easy on this and say you are right, would that mean Froome also was UNDERESTIMATED for 5%? That would put him on 6.2/6.3w/kg? Good argument RR.

Now being realistic and lets say we take a 3% variance due to your 'wind': that would put your mate on only 6.1w/k. Yeah, true believers love this. Eighty percent tailwind, are people really buying this? U should sell estates then.

 

[Race Radio]

No i dont want to start a thread on tts, i am talking on Froomes performance on Ventoux. He did that performance on Ventoux while blowing everyone away on the tts. That makes the Ventoux performance more suspicious than the Ventoux performance of someone like Quintana who was losing in the tts since someone who focuses only on climbing will get more out of their body on a climb than someone who is also using up some talent on world beater tt stats.

Now to the subject of riders saying there was a tailwind. You have said it was multiple riders but only named Henderson. Can you comment on which other riders it was?

Also what is your take on the 2 posts that pointed out that since even you admit there were long sections of headwind, Henderson could not possibly have been telling the truth when he said it was tailwind all the way up.

Irizar, or more accurately his SRM, said there was a tailwind. 5% difference.

 

[Race Radio]

Why do you keep lying?

Why are you so bad at Math?

The CPL forumla averages +1.9 % vs SRM

#TDF 2013, David Lopez [67 kg] | 10 climbs | SRM vs. CPL - difference: 1.943 %

#TDF 2012, Chris Anker Sorensen [64 kg] | 23 climbs | SRM vs. CPL - difference: 1.918 %

On Ventoux that day, because of the tailwind, the CPL was -3.36% vs SRM. This is a difference of over 5%......was that due to a SRM malfunction or because of the obvious tailwind?

 

[proffate]

Irizar, or more accurately his SRM, said there was a tailwind. 5% difference.

I don't understand this statement. My interpretation of this tweet is that most of the models underestimated his power output. That would suggest a slight headwind.

On Ventoux that day, because of the tailwind, the CPL was -3.36% vs SRM. This is a difference of over 5%......was that due to a SRM malfunction or because of the obvious tailwind?

I think you have it backwards, if the SRM is higher than CPL then there was a headwind that CPL didn't account for.

 

[thehog]

Why are you so bad at Math?

Ummmm.

12% to Mayo's time?

It was 5%.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

by the way, did anybody see what Daniel Martin actually wrote in his blog (or was it twitter?)?
Allegedly he spoke of a headwind on the Ventoux, but I'd like to see the whole quote with context, and couldn't find it on the internet.

From this Irish Times article:

If I had held on to the yellow jersey group for another 200 metres, I would have stayed in the same group as the Belkin riders Bauke Mollema and Laurens Ten Dam to the finish.

I ended up riding 15 seconds behind them the whole way up, then half-blew with 2km to go in the headwind.

As noted from the map earlier, a headwind (&crosswind) at that point means that the majority of the climb (up to Chalet Reynard) would have had a tailwind/crosswind.

Not that hard to work out - but then, thats not really the purpose of the thread.

 

[thehog]

by the way, did anybody see what Daniel Martin actually wrote in his blog (or was it twitter?)?
Allegedly he spoke of a headwind on the Ventoux, but I'd like to see the whole quote with context, and couldn't find it on the internet.

Chris Froome landed what looks to be the knockout blow of the Tour de France on Sunday with a first ever British victory on the summit of Mont Ventoux, this country’s most difficult climb.

On the empty moonscape of the Ventoux’s upper slopes, Froome dropped his most tenacious mountain rival, Colombian Nairo Quintana, with just over a kilometre to go. His teeth gritted against the pain and the strong headwind as, hunched over the bike as usual, the 28-year-old Briton forged ahead for a stunning solo win, a reinforced yellow jersey lead and even the unexpected bonus of the lead in the King of the Mountains competition.

Quintana crossed the line 29 seconds behind, but the important damage inflicted by Froome was to his overall rivals: double Tour winner Alberto Contador, dropped 7km from the line and pushed back by a minute and 40 seconds, a gap that more than restores the time lost in Friday’s mass attack by the Spaniard’s team, while Bauke Mollema, second overall, lost nearly two minutes.

“My objective was to take a bit more time and I did my maximum to get as big an advantage,” said Froome – after briefly needing oxygen to recover, something unprecedented in his career. “I didn’t see myself getting this victory, but it’s really the greatest win I’ve ever had. Winning on the Ventoux is something exceptional, historic.”

After a furious charge towards the foot of the Ventoux, the climb itself – 20 kilometres long, relentlessly rising to 1,900 metres, with temperatures touching 40 degrees at its base and strong headwinds in the final segment – decided everything.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ives-us-chris-froome-with-a-view-8708080.html

and Dan Martin here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/oth...elt-like-it-was-being-cooked-1.1463423?page=2

Isn't funny how none of these guys mention a tailwind anywhere.

You know the strong tailwind for 80% of the climb.

Bu they do mention a headwind.

I wonder why that is...?

 

[Netserk]

Why are you so bad at Math?

https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/360095234505445376

SRM: 324.1W

CPL: 313.2W

And your conclusion is that there was a tailwind?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ives-us-chris-froome-with-a-view-8708080.html

Chris Froome landed what looks to be the knockout blow of the Tour de France on Sunday with a first ever British victory on the summit of Mont Ventoux, this country’s most difficult climb.

On the empty moonscape of the Ventoux’s upper slopes, Froome dropped his most tenacious mountain rival, Colombian Nairo Quintana, with just over a kilometre to go. His teeth gritted against the pain and the strong headwind as, hunched over the bike as usual, the 28-year-old Briton forged ahead for a stunning solo win, a reinforced yellow jersey lead and even the unexpected bonus of the lead in the King of the Mountains competition.

Quintana crossed the line 29 seconds behind, but the important damage inflicted by Froome was to his overall rivals: double Tour winner Alberto Contador, dropped 7km from the line and pushed back by a minute and 40 seconds, a gap that more than restores the time lost in Friday’s mass attack by the Spaniard’s team, while Bauke Mollema, second overall, lost nearly two minutes.

“My objective was to take a bit more time and I did my maximum to get as big an advantage,” said Froome – after briefly needing oxygen to recover, something unprecedented in his career. “I didn’t see myself getting this victory, but it’s really the greatest win I’ve ever had. Winning on the Ventoux is something exceptional, historic.”

After a furious charge towards the foot of the Ventoux, the climb itself – 20 kilometres long, relentlessly rising to 1,900 metres, with temperatures touching 40 degrees at its base and strong headwinds in the final segment – decided everything.

and Dan Martin here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/oth...elt-like-it-was-being-cooked-1.1463423?page=2

Isn't funny how none of these guys mention a tailwind anywhere.

You know the strong tailwind for 80% of the climb.

Bu they do mention a headwind.

I wonder why that is...?

I just helped you out there and highlighted the bit that you missed, I assume by complete accident.
You're welcome.

 

[Race Radio]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ives-us-chris-froome-with-a-view-8708080.html

and Dan Martin here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/oth...elt-like-it-was-being-cooked-1.1463423?page=2

Isn't funny how none of these guys mention a tailwind anywhere.

You know the strong tailwind for 80% of the climb.

Bu they do mention a headwind.

I wonder why that is...?

Thanks for proving my point. Cross wind on top means tailwind for most of the climb......Can you read a map?

2km to go is how much of the climb exactly?

 

[thehog]

and Dan Martin here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/oth...elt-like-it-was-being-cooked-1.1463423?page=2

Isn't funny how none of these guys mention a tailwind anywhere.

You know the strong tailwind for 80% of the climb.

Bu they do mention a headwind.

I wonder why that is...?

Thanks Vortex.

Good of Dan to note the tailwind.

No one is saying it was a headwind all the way.

We're just saying it wasn't a moonsoon tailwind for 80% of the climb.

Thanks again

 

[sniper]

From this Irish Times article:


As noted from the map earlier, a headwind (&crosswind) at that point means that the majority of the climb (up to Chalet Reynard) would have had a tailwind/crosswind.

Not that hard to work out - but then, thats not really the purpose of the thread.

thanks.
i'd say that quote can be intertreted more liberally though.
he blew himself up at 2km from the finish. there was a headwind when he blew himself up.
that doesn't compell the conclusion that there was no headwind prior to the 2km point.

Here's how Dutch journo's assessed Ten Dam's effort on the ventoux:

Ten Dam reed een groot deel van de beklimming met volle wind tegen op kop

"Ten Dam rode a large part of the climb with full headwind."
http://www.limburger.nl/article/20130714/SPORT02/130719112/1030

 

[the sceptic]

Thanks Vortex.

Good of Dan to note the tailwind.

No one is saying it was a headwind all the way.

We're just saying it wasn't a moonsoon tailwind for 80% of the climb.

Thanks again

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily 14. jul

#TDF, Mont Ventoux, last 6.15 km, 8.00 %, 492 m 2002 | Lance Armstrong: 17 min 53 sec 2013 | Chtris Froome: 17 min 41 sec

Froome faster than Armstrong in the headwind. That is not a good thing.