women are right!

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May 28, 2012
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Ryo Hazuki said:
then those tests are a joke, since most male ct riders are better than vos

Those tests don't reveal endurance, tactical sense and behaviour in races, you know what particular male Dutchman has impressive lab results too(probably been mentionted by Dekker_T before) and he doesn't add up GT victories, with all the crashes and not being able to take the pressure.

In a pure mountain TT Vos could get a top 20 among the men, I guess that's within her possibilities.
 
jens_attacks said:
but c'mon....eyes don't lie...did you really think she went as fast as phil???:eek:
Not really, although I remember having read that somewhere on this forum. It probably wasn't right, although this isn't too convincing.

She gets the same w/kg in a physical test as a guy like Pieter Weening, that's an undisputable fact, and it's also a fact that Ryo Hazuki will never reach those numbers ;)
 
Its all about question and demand and there is just not as much demand for woman racing then for man.

Just compare it to football the ticket prices for a game of Man United vs Chelsea are way higher then a match between Millwall and Norwich city.

The skill level is higher and there for people want to pay higher prices, sponsors are more interested in giving more money to a team which has more fans and is viewed better on the television. Thats why the people should also get different salaries.

If Man U vs Chelsea and Millwall vs Norwich City is on English television at the same time, the first match will have a 100th time more viewers and it would be the same if a man´s race and woman´s cycling race is on the TV.
 
El Pistolero said:
I wouldn't know, I've never run one. Even at my level athletics is specialized. You can only focus on a couple of events if you want to be competitive. ;)

Do this then. Paula radcliffes average speed for her marathon world record was 18.6 km /h. For over 2 hours. Find a treadmill and see if you can manage 5 minutes at the pace.


Ryo Hazuki said:
no, but others are. or do you think quintana, soler, henao etc were/are from a different countries?

When was the last time these guys competed in your beloved vuelta a tachira or a guatemala or venezuela ? Aren't by your standards those races also" pathetic"?
 
Ruudz0r said:
Its all about question and demand and there is just not as much demand for woman racing then for man.

Just compare it to football the ticket prices for a game of Man United vs Chelsea are way higher then a match between Millwall and Norwich city.

The skill level is higher and there for people want to pay higher prices, sponsors are more interested in giving more money to a team which has more fans and is viewed better on the television. Thats why the people should also get different salaries.

If Man U vs Chelsea and Millwall vs Norwich City is on English television at the same time, the first match will have a 100th time more viewers and it would be the same if a man´s race and woman´s cycling race is on the TV.

Tickets for a women's gs final are more expensive than a mens atp masters final even though the skills on display are far higher in the latter.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Pentacycle said:
Those tests don't reveal endurance, tactical sense and behaviour in races, you know what particular male Dutchman has impressive lab results too(probably been mentionted by Dekker_T before) and he doesn't add up GT victories, with all the crashes and not being able to take the pressure.

In a pure mountain TT Vos could get a top 20 among the men, I guess that's within her possibilities.

no she wouldn't because a mountain itt is being done in a stagerace, in which she would already suffer so much in days before she's at big disadvantage
 
Mar 31, 2010
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the hitch said:
do this then. Paula radcliffes average speed for her marathon world record was 18.6 km /h. For over 2 hours. Find a treadmill and see if you can manage 5 minutes at the pace.




When was the last time these guys competed in your beloved vuelta a tachira or a guatemala or venezuela ? Aren't by your standards those races also" pathetic"?

2011


......
 
Mar 31, 2010
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The Hitch said:
Tickets for a women's gs final are more expensive than a mens atp masters final even though the skills on display are far higher in the latter.

I explained tennis before.
 
maltiv said:
Maybe Ryo Hazuki should take a test on his watt at FTP and see how "close" he is to Vos...

Most continental riders, who obviously train a lot, wouldn't even be close.

Like I've said, my mate beats the second best Dutch female rider of the last few years without training. This argument really is not valid.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Arnout said:
Yeah.

Flanders - what, 6 million people?

South America - 350 million.

No difference at all.

You're right, the level in South-America is probably even lower. Oscar Sevilla is still winning loads of races there after all.

All the good South-American riders are active in Europe now(Henao, Quintana, Uran, Carlos Betancur). Just like the good cyclo-cross riders are active on the road. :)
 
El Pistolero said:
You're right, the level in South-America is probably even lower. Oscar Sevilla is still winning loads of races there after all.

All the good South-American riders are active in Europe now(Henao, Quintana, Uran, Rigobergo Betancur). Just look the good cyclo-cross riders are active on the road. :)

Yeah, there can't be new ones of course.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Arnout said:
Point being? They will be nurtured in South America and as the pool is a lot bigger than Belgian cyclocross the general level will also be a lot higher.

That South-American races have low quality fields. Mostly just Colombians and cycling isn't even the most popular sport there even though Ryo likes to make us believe that.

How many professional Brazilian and Argentinian cyclists do you know that can compete in the WT? Bolivians? Peruvians? Bolivians?
I just narrowed your talent pool quite a bit.

So basically you have a racing scene that is dominated by one nationality and all the real talents go find their success elsewhere eventually. Sounds an awful lot like cyclocross to me.

If you're not watching female cycling because the level is too low for your personal taste then please don't watch South-American racing. :rolleyes:
 
Difference is, is that the level is higher. By the way, I checked a few weeks ago with a Colombian classmate if cycling is popular there and it is, so no point arguing over that.

The top talents coming from South America are world class in Europe too (Henao, Betancur and the rest of them). The World Champions in cyclocross are rather average till now, we'll give Stybar a few more years but Boom is hardly setting the world on fire. You're comparing a niche sport with a big sport in South America.

Anyway, women cycling.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Arnout said:
Difference is, is that the level is higher. By the way, I checked a few weeks ago with a Colombian classmate if cycling is popular there and it is, so no point arguing over that.

The top talents coming from South America are world class in Europe too (Henao, Betancur and the rest of them). The World Champions in cyclocross are rather average till now, we'll give Stybar a few more years but Boom is hardly setting the world on fire. You're comparing a niche sport with a big sport in South America.

Anyway, women cycling.

Betancur is world class? Really? How is he better than Boom and Stybar?

Uran and Henao aren't exactly blowing us away in Europe either you know...

Funny, Betancur beat Kevin Pauwels in one of his only 3 victories this year. The same Pauwels that is getting blown away at cyclocross.

Stybar has just done his first real year on the road.

I'm comparing a big sport in Belgium with a big sport(but not nearly the biggest) in Colombia. Cycling is not big in South-America. You think Brazilians care about cycling?

You don't think South-American cycling is a niche in road cycling?

And honestly, what best climbers are riding in South-America like Ryo keeps saying? Contador? Andy Schleck? Froome? Wiggins? Nibali? Valverde? Rodriguez?
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Arnout said:
Top 5 GT, medal at Olympics, Italian semi-classic wins, I call that quite good yes.

Anyway, last post from my side.

So is Alexander Kristoff a world class rider now?

John Gadret was fourth in the Giro by the way.

Boom's ride in Roubaix was more impressive than a win in an Italian semi-classic. Or his fifth place at the Worlds leaving all Colombians behind.

So if you're only interested in watching the highest level in a sport like Ryo says, why would you bother watching South-American racing? It's a genuine question. I don't understand lol.
 
My eyes lit up when I saw the title ... I couldn't hardly wait to click the link, thinking to myself "Finally!! They've got it!" ... ... .... well ... I think I'll go now ... :rolleyes:

:)
 
Oh brother, here we go again.

Threads about women's cycling seem to usually end up in the same arguments.

1) I like to watch the best and the men are faster so therefore I don't care about women's cycling.
Fine. But then don't start hyping up U23 racing, or smaller national scenes or whatever, since they aren't the objective best either. Personally, I'd rather watch a really exciting stage in the Tour of some small hilly region of southern Italy than a tightly controlled sprint in the Tour de France, and similarly I'd rather watch an exciting women's race than a boring men's race. Your mileage may vary - see the point about Manchester United above.

2) Women's racing is boring!
So is men's racing. Sorry, but how many tightly controlled sprint stages have we seen recently? Flattish stage races with disappointing parcours, where the ITT settles the GC, or there's only one climbing stage that settles it? The difference between men's and women's cycling in this regard is that our greater knowledge of the men's péloton, as well as the greater degree of hype, more fans and better presentation (especially in terms of TV coverage) means we are more emotionally invested in what happens. You could see a women's race with riders pinging off the front all over the place, but if the poor coverage makes it hard to tell what's going on, and you don't know enough about the sport to really care who wins, then you're not going to react as positively as to a men's race where, frankly, little happens, but then you get one or two important moves.

3) The depth of the field is lacking! The same women are at the top in all the different types of races!
Yes, it is, that's true, but that isn't the fault of the women themselves. There are many reasons for this, but two of them stand above the others, and they are both to do with money. Firstly, due to the lack of money, courses often stay around urban centres paying for them; they can't often afford the middle-of-nowhere hilltop and mountaintop finishes of men's races, and so organisers often create a large number of fairly samey types of parcours. Secondly, the lack of money means that only the women who achieve the best results can command the type of salary and winnings that enable them to concentrate full-time on their cycling. This then manifests itself in them being able to put in more work, and becoming better than the rest of the field, thus ensuring the same cycle continues. The field is unable to truly specialize into climbers, rouleurs, sprinters and so on because there aren't enough races that only favour one group like that for them to justify not trying to be an all-rounder.

4) Marianne Vos sucks compared to men, hurr hurr!
If we can get away from bickering over her time on the Cauberg, I could point out that half the elite men in the 2012 Cyclocross World Championships at Koksijde couldn't ride all the way up the X-Duin. Marianne Vos could. Remember Blijlevens talking about maybe putting her in with men to keep her motivated earlier in the year? We had people going on about how she'd get annihilated at the World Tour? Unless I am very much mistaken, nobody ever mentioned Rabobank World Tour team or expectations of victory other than those making a story out of it or those misinterpreting it. We simply don't know what the expectations were because they weren't really elaborated. It could have been nothing more than riding with Rabo Continental in a few .2 or U23 races to see if she could hack the pace of the group more than anything else.

5) Nobody cares about it, so it isn't shown or covered!
Understandable, but also chicken-and-egg, as Hitch pointed out very well. If you have more exposure to something, you absorb knowledge of it, and you can become more emotionally invested in it. Women's cycling is seldom shown, so how can people discover that they're interested in it? Again, as Hitch pointed out, the sports where women are held in the highest esteem by fans are events where the women's events are at the same time as the men's. Ironically, this gives us more chance to directly compare men's and women's performances than there is in cycling, but we don't directly compare the men's and women's performances that often in those sports. Female skiers, biathletes, track and field athletes and even to an extent track cyclists are allowed to be the best at what they do without having to always be compared to the men. Nobody cares that Shelly-Ann Fraser or Mary Keitany can't run as fast as Usain Bolt or Haile Gebreselassie, nobody cares that Magdalena Neuner or Marit Bjørgen can't ski as fast as Emil Hegle Svendsen or Dario Cologna... we compare them to other women, not to the men.

6) Women's cycling will never be as good as men's cycling, so why bother trying to force it on people?
Because even if it will not be as good as men's cycling, the disparity at present is way larger than it needs to be. There is a potential audience for women's cycling far in excess of the present audience. It may never come close to the audience for men's cycling, but the point is not necessarily equality... it's that women's cycling hasn't even been given the chance to sink or swim in most markets. It needs a bit of an injection of support to create enough variety in the races and enough of a péloton with enough coverage, to give it the chance to sink or swim. It might sink, sure, but it might swim. After all, as previously noted, the Olympics and Worlds may be special cases, but the women's events get big audiences. The Giro Donne has done well enough in Italy in the last few years that highlights have extended from 10 minutes a day in 2009 to 45 minutes a day in 2012. So there could be an audience there - it's just that some people are uncertain about whether they want to take the risk of putting that support behind it in case it fails.

7) Did you see the Copenhagen Worlds? That was abysmal!
Yes it was, and I was horrified to see, on one of the only days when women's cycling could make a statement for itself, they put on the worst race of the year. But did you see the Copenhagen Worlds Men's race? It was hardly much better. The Olympics Road Race should have put the ghosts of Copenhagen to rest. After all, the Beijing Olympics RR, the Mendrisio and Varese Worlds all produced excellent races. More or less the same as the men actually - who would have thought it? The courses where the men's races sucked, the women's did too, and the courses where the men's races were good, so were the women's! Well I never!

8) Hi, I'm Ryo Hazuki and despite the fact that the last few times I weighed in with my comments on women's cycling I wound up getting banned, I thought I'd weigh in again with the same points
Hey, Ryo, how's it going?
 
Arnout said:
Like I've said, my mate beats the second best Dutch female rider of the last few years without training. This argument really is not valid.

Lol this argument is so ***, and no surprises looking at the 3 posters who have used it.

" i an anonymous internet poster/ my friend, have with ease beaten some woman at some sport ergo women suck".

Christ what chance do we have against such weight of evidence.