World Championships 2024: Men's Road Race (September 29)

[gunara]

100 km from the line:
Remco: Look at Pogacar, it's a suicide attack!
MVP: Yeah, it's stupid. He's doomed, we will smoke him later.
1 hour later:
Remco (making gestures): Oh s**t, we are doomed, not him! Move your a**es.
At the finish:
...

Remco reminds me of Europa Universalis game player. As one of the majors, when up against the Vinge juggernaut (the military superpower of Prussia in the game), he allies himself with the unstoppable boss of the game, 18th century Ottoman Pog. But when the boss is threatening his interest, he leans himself towards another great power, van der Poel, maybe the Napoleonic France of the game. In process, he - the great emperor of Holy Roman Empire himself - throws tantrum and casus belli at will upon all the minnows around.

I don't dislike the guy, one hell of a bike rider that behave like an eternal kid, it's fine with me as far as entertainment goes.

 

[scribers]

Watching now to see how much work sivakov actually does. Pogi ships several seconds on the climb waiting for pavel to catch up. Pogi seems content with pavel on his wheel. Seems to understand how much pressure he is putting on everyone it’s 73k and pavel still on pogis wheel barely holding on constantly standing to stay on and pogi seated tempo. Gap goes out to 50 seconds. Feed zone at 72k pogi still in front of pavel. Gap goes down to 40 seconds as peloton attacks each other. We don’t see pogi for several km. Cut to 69k pavel is in front of pogi. Gap stays around 42 seconds. At 68k pavel and pogi swapping turns. 43 seconds. Showing mostly the chase as they are attacking each other and disorganized. Pogi in front at 66k stays there. Gap goes back out to 50 seconds. Pavel takes a turn in front at 63k. Gap comes back down to 43. Pogi quickly moves to front again. Storms downhill. A lot of mvp and remco in front of chase group behind trying to bring Pogi back. Pavel takes a turn at 60k. Gap comes back down to 39. Pogi will see this on the board. Knows there’s not enough benefit behind sivakov. 56k Pogi in front drilling. 54k sivakov takes a turn. Pogi quickly back to the front. Has a look at the lap screen for the situation. Pogi in front at 52k. I’m belly laughing at remcos tantrums. Pogi in front at beginning of climb. Untethers sivakov at 51.5k. Alone forever after.

Pogi leads the duo at least 80% of the time across 25k.

 

[scribers]

Then Pogi got help from next teammate.

Just did an analysis of that. Pogi lead the duo at least 80% of the time. Shipped several seconds waiting for sivakov at the split. And continually lost seconds to the chase every time sivakov lead the pair.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

I would agree with you if it was about the last 20-30 kilometers. But this was 100. No matter how bad the chase is coordinated, such a solo ride wouldn't succeed under normal circumstances.

To me it was very well helped with the situation of having Tratnik in the front group. Without Tratnik at this very crucial moment, besides having Sivakov doing pulls with him afterwards (French team manager can't be that happy about that one, but I bet Gianetti was) and the situation had been a pure solo race for Pogi, I'm of the conviction that the closing stages of the race would've been quite more delicate

 

[scribers]

Let's play the scenario where Mathieu and Remco chased Tadej and the three of them arrive at the last km. Mathieu would win the sprint with Tadej as second. Remco was doomed when he couldn't drop Mathieu.

MVP in the middle of all this doomed the chase. It was never going to organize use and work for the defending champion.

 

[Rob5091]

MvdP had only Mollema and no one would want to drag MvdP to the line for a sprint, so it was either Remco goes long too or it's a win for Pogi.

 

[scribers]

To me it was very well helped with the situation of having Tratnik in the front group. Without Tratnik at this very crucial moment, besides having Sivakov doing pulls with him afterwards (French team manager can't be that happy about that one, but I bet Gianetti was) and the situation had been a pure solo race for Pogi, I'm of the conviction that the closing stages of the race would've been quite more delicate

Thinking about French tactics. They had bardet who finished 10th 2:18 off the winning time. Madouis as an option. So for Sivakov to share 20% of the work out front so bad? It was clear he was the second strongest of the large lead group up the climb behind pogi.

 

[jmdirt]

OK, so off-topic, I just hope my presumptions are right:

That the forum consist of impartial and clear-thinking moderators, simply do their job in relation to threads or posts that my eyes miss to see.

-There is only one moderator.
-There is also at least one administartor.
-The above two are frequently confused/used interchangably.
-The moderator bases many of their 'investigations' on reports, and then makes a decision based on established rules.
-I assume that the administrator does the same?
-There is a thread for this discussion in the Feedback section.

EDIT: There has been a lot of off limits inuendo so maybe some of the bans are in relation to that.

 

[Escarabajo]

Just a comment about Sivakov. Pogi waited for him anyway. So Sivakov stayed at the front because of Pogi. Without him he would have been caught in no time. So working with Pogacar was the obvious option regardless of UAE. He has at least a minimal chance working with Pogi than not working for him. So there is that.

Last but not least, his manager at UAE was happy and that is more important.

 

[rokovski]

What pointless drama about Sivakov, like that time when Roglic in national kit didnt pulling for WvA? 😅

 

[RedheadDane]

What pointless drama about Sivakov, like that time when Roglic in national kit didnt pulling for WvA? 😅

Except... isn't it kinda reverse?
Sivakov - in French national kit - pulled for Pogacar - in Slovenian national kit - supposedly because they're trade-teammates.

 

[hayneplane]

To me it was very well helped with the situation of having Tratnik in the front group. Without Tratnik at this very crucial moment, besides having Sivakov doing pulls with him afterwards (French team manager can't be that happy about that one, but I bet Gianetti was) and the situation had been a pure solo race for Pogi, I'm of the conviction that the closing stages of the race would've been quite more delicate

The French didn’t have anyone behind who was a better medal chance than seeing if Sivakov hanging with Pogacar and helping a little could extend the gap and break the will of the chasers leading to a shot at Silver.

 

[rokovski]

Except... isn't it kinda reverse?
Sivakov - in French national kit - pulled for Pogacar - in Slovenian national kit - supposedly because they're trade-teammates.

Reverse, but same group of cycling enthusiasts have problem with it.
Sivakov was cooperating from far out, Roglis was supposed to do almost leadout to sprint.

 

[scribers]

Except... isn't it kinda reverse?
Sivakov - in French national kit - pulled for Pogacar - in Slovenian national kit - supposedly because they're trade-teammates.

You're severely oversimplifying this.

 

[RedheadDane]

You're severely oversimplifying this.

People definitely aren't mad that he didn't pull, while people were mad that Roglic didn't pull for WVA.

And then in regular races, where they ride for trade teams, some people get mad when compatriots don't even each other across teams.
There's always gonna be some people mad...

 

[scribers]

It is what it is. Pogi invited many along the road to stay with him. Including Bagioli who Pogi looked back on as if encouraging him to stay on and maybe pull a bit for their own chances.

 

[RedheadDane]

"Stay on" with Pogacar is probably easier said than done.
Hard to "stay on" when your legs are exploding*





*Figuretively speaking.

 

[KZD]

That I found your conjunction pointless, illustrating that by an analogous example, and so asked what your point was: "So?"

"Sure there are some that may not like but no one can deny that we are witnessing history."

How does the latter relate to the former? You say the two are in tension by using "but" as your conjunction.

If someone didn't like Armstrong's dominance of the 2004 Tour, what kind of rejoinder is it to say that a 6th Tour win was a historic feat? That does absolutely nothing to mitigate the dread of Armstrong's reign. When he took his 3rd stage win in a row by sprinting past Klöden (who ended up never winning a Tour stage), the day after catching Basso (2nd in GC) in the MTT, how is anyone going to dislike that any less because "we are witnessing history"?

No one has denied that it's a historic feat. You might as well say "no one can deny that he won solo". Duh. So what?

Wrong, there were several users during the race and after that were trying to downplay the race and the feat that Pogačar had just achieved. The expression that I used is often used in different contexts too.

But on your fourth paragraph you basically say why you are being so neatpicking, its because you are just unhappy that Pogačar has become world champion. If somebody else had written exactly the same about a great win from Boonen, Roglič or Vingegaard I am sure you wouldn't make any remark.

However like it or not, Pogačar is the World Champion and that is the reality that you and the haters will have to live with for the next 12 months.

 

[Netserk]

Wrong, there were several users during the race and after that were trying to downplay the race and the feat that Pogačar had just achieved. The expression that I used is often used in different contexts too.

But on your fourth paragraph you basically say why you are being so neatpicking, its because you are just unhappy that Pogačar has become world champion. If somebody else had written exactly the same about a great win from Boonen, Roglič or Vingegaard I am sure you wouldn't make any remark.

However like it or not, Pogačar is the World Champion and that is the reality that you and the haters will have to live with for the next 12 months.

You are the one coupling "some that may not like" and "we are witnessing history". You have still not explained how the latter mitigates the former.

I'm unhappy with how the race was decided, I'm not particularly unhappy with the winner. I really liked Ronde last year and how it was won, it was much better than this year's edition.

Do you think your logic applies to the analogous example of Armstrong? "Sure there are some that may not like but no one can deny that we are witnessing history." Why would it be relevant to the fact that some were unhappy with Armstrong's dominance in the 2004 Tour that he achieved something historic?

You are very much welcome to provide an example from this thread of someone denying that we witnessed something historic.

 

[Lequack]

Stephen Roche interview (in English)

Roche: ‘Zit nu in sandwich tussen Merckx en Pogacar, niet slecht’

Stephen Roche won de Giro, Tour en WK in 1987, nu verwelkomt hij Tadej Pogacar tot de zeer exclusieve 'Triple crown of cycling club'.

nos.nl

 

[Unchained]

The commentators here are trying to make the viewers think that what they watched was amazing. One of them even insisted it was the best world championship he could remember! I think it was one of the worst.

I think the coolest part about this, Pogacar, Remco, MvdP, all people racing, most pros and ex professionals including Eddy Merckx, Lance Armstrong all said that they witnessed something amazing!! I still am processing that Pog had the best in the world on the limit for hours ,solo..

 

[proffate]

Let's play the scenario where Mathieu and Remco chased Tadej and the three of them arrive at the last km. Mathieu would win the sprint with Tadej as second. Remco was doomed when he couldn't drop Mathieu.

depends on when they regrouped. If they're together with 20k to go then Remco can find some moment to attack and hope the others both watch each other.

 

[Unchained]

Its def is the mainstream view, look at the ratings which has never been better. Ofc most people like to watch the best cyclist possible battle it out over second tier riders fighting for sprints. Cycling is in a truly special era right now in terms of talent which are epic.

With ala carte TV and other media, I have people who rarely or never watch cycling enjoying races!! As you can more easily see all kinds of racing, fans are happy, many part timers are watching more racing.. And non fans are in a state of discovery and like what they have found. Special era indeed!!

 

[Danskebjerge]

I think the coolest part about this, Pogacar, Remco, MvdP, all people racing, most pros and ex professionals including Eddy Merckx, Lance Armstrong all said that they witnessed something amazing!!

And then the next questions are: Okay, "amazing", but was it exciting - is this the way we want a world championship race to be?

 

[hayneplane]

And then the next questions are: Okay, "amazing", but was it exciting - is this the way we want a world championship race to be?

Yes absolutely. This is the race that the Imola 2020 circuit could have provided but the riders and teams were still wedded to the old style of racing of waiting for the last lap.

Pogacar went with I think 42km and 2 laps to go but nobody went with him and he was nowhere near as strong as he is now.