World Championships 2024: Men's Road Race (September 29)

[mlescanojr]

Would anyone say it was a bad performance?

It's very different what they are saying.

Pogacar perfomance was fantastic, VdP and Fatco thought it was suicide. You need to be a super saiyajin to do what Pog did today.

Armstrong told that even in his heyday we wouldn't attack in an U23 race from 100km. Enough said.

 

[Danskebjerge]

Armstrong told that even in his heyday we wouldn't attack in an U23 race.

That's a good point. If I were to say more, I would have to do it in The Clinic.

 

[mlescanojr]

That's a good point. If I were to say more, I would have to do it in The Clinic.

I can only imagine.

 

[Cookster15]

Armstrong told that even in his heyday we wouldn't attack in an U23 race from 100km. Enough said.

Armstrong’s ‘heyday’ was post cancer. If I recall correctly, Armstrong usually attacked on MTFs once his US Postal team had thinned down the lead group. When he won his world title in 93, pre cancer, was that a long solo break? I don’t ever recall Armstrong winning long solo breakaways, but could be wrong?

 

[mlescanojr]

Armstrong’s ‘heyday’ was post cancer. If I recall correctly, Armstrong usually attacked on MTFs once his US Postal team had thinned down the lead group. When he won his world title in 93, pre cancer, was that a long solo break? I don’t ever recall Armstrong winning long solo breakaways, but could be wrong?

I know, that's why Pogacar attacking from 100 km is insane. He almost broke in the final lap.

 

[Sciatic]

Some think it's a joy to watch Pogacar on a bike - or Evenepoel or some other star. I can't say those people are wrong. But cycling still doesn't provide us with the dynamic aesthetics of many other sports. Serving in tennis or doing a double somersault are simply much more complicated processes than going round a bend on a bike. So you can sit and enjoy watching those athletes move their body impressively although there isn't much uncertainty about the result. While in cycling - and in endurance sports in general - the audience get something else. And that's seeing how the suspense increases, who will crack, who will cross the line first, and all that.

Cycling is in that regard more interesting than most other endurance sports - mainly because a rider gets a big advantage by being right behind another rider. That's why it's normally not a good idea to go solo from 100 k to the finish. If a rider does succeed in doing so - not only once, but on many occasions -, then the main characteristic of cycling wears off, and you might as well watch a marathon run. In fact, it seems there is more suspense in marathon these days than in men's cycling. It's not necessarily anyone's fault. It's just the consequence of having a couple of guys "from another planet" in the sport.

I agree with you. I think they are just different sports that provide different experiences. I’ve loved all my years of cycling long distances—the feeling of fluidity, great exercise, and a lot of social connections. But ever since (decades ago) I had to stop playing basketball because my body could no longer handle it, I have always missed it. It’s a much more dynamic, intuitive, and skill-requisite sport and I never found the same in cycling, skiing, or hiking. Not because it’s better—just really different.

 

[joe_papp]

No comment on Pog' but result of day was Quinn Simmons being a protagonist and finishing top-10 after missing bulk of season with health issues.

 

[Oldermanish]

Would anyone say it was a bad performance?

It was a misguided opportunity that had enough relief for Tadej, the Adventurer to succeed. Honestly, the 2nd tier egos had them fighting each other totally confident that Pogacar would fold and they'd prevail. Remco was the poster-child for wasted energy and petulance. Pogacar definitely benefitted from that and admitted the situation was "stupid" when he went. Tratnik and the Italian boost saved him when he was tired on the last lap.
The performance had the luck, panache', more luck and crazy stupid WRR team responses to make it work out.
I love the constant "alien" references when many of the top tier pursuers probably burned more watts than Tadej did trying to out muscle each other. Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[Poursuivant]

Goat doing Goat things.

 

[tobydawq]

It's very different what they are saying.

Pogacar perfomance was fantastic, VdP and Fatco thought it was suicide. You need to be a super saiyajin to do what Pog did today.

Armstrong told that even in his heyday we wouldn't attack in an U23 race from 100km. Enough said.

I doubt Armstrong would consume 120g carbs per hour.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

It was a misguided opportunity that had enough relief for Tadej, the Adventurer to succeed. Honestly, the 2nd tier egos had them fighting each other totally confident that Pogacar would fold and they'd prevail. Remco was the poster-child for wasted energy and petulance. Pogacar definitely benefitted from that and admitted the situation was "stupid" when he went. Tratnik and the Italian boost saved him when he was tired on the last lap.
The performance had the luck, panache', more luck and crazy stupid WRR team responses to make it work out.
I love the constant "alien" references when many of the top tier pursuers probably burned more watts than Tadej did trying to out muscle each other. Stupid is as stupid does.

This.

And I pretty much liked the "stupid things", whether it was from Pogi or his competitors.

In my world it made much of a different kind of high suspense, speaking the gold medal for 95% of the race.
Speaking silver and bronze; the entire race.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

After thinking about it for a while: Pogi's successful breakaway made almost no sense, he defied the laws of cycling. With 3 laps remaining (80 km to go) the front group was like 36 seconds ahead of still strong peleton. They were seemingly on leash and about to get caught, normally no chance. At that time Pogacar could still decide to retreat and save some matches for a late attack (he definitely had them), there was no more threat up the road, the breakaway he caught was about to get eliminated. But instead he just went for it, this was most impressive IMO. There was no return option afterwards.

The gap was slowly increasing as helpers in peleton were dropping trying to catch him. With 2 laps to go the gap was still under a minute. When he dropped Sivakov it was clear he still has more power in store and the gap started rising: behind no fave wanted to drag the rest. They made a series of powerful moves but no consistent cooperation. They were getting tired as well. The last lap was about survival and Pogacar found energy for the last push (his final gap to the faves group turned out to be quite substantial (~1 min) despite his celebrations, only O'Connor went closer).

 

[Barkintheeye]

That's a good point. If I were to say more, I would have to do it in The Clinic.

Agree. One thing that might be said in defense is that the group behind - MVDP, Hirschi, Remco, etc - really didn't cooperate well at all. Remco launched repeated attacks when other riders had been pulling which really must have been completely off-putting anyone to do any type of serious work. I'd say it was Remco - not surprisingly as he really lacks aptitude and style - that sealed Pog's victory. Pog should send him a Thank You-card...

 

[Bolder]

It was a misguided opportunity that had enough relief for Tadej, the Adventurer to succeed. Honestly, the 2nd tier egos had them fighting each other totally confident that Pogacar would fold and they'd prevail. Remco was the poster-child for wasted energy and petulance. Pogacar definitely benefitted from that and admitted the situation was "stupid" when he went. Tratnik and the Italian boost saved him when he was tired on the last lap.
The performance had the luck, panache', more luck and crazy stupid WRR team responses to make it work out.
I love the constant "alien" references when many of the top tier pursuers probably burned more watts than Tadej did trying to out muscle each other. Stupid is as stupid does.

This, although I cannot believe they thought he would fold. He's been doing that all year. They were playing Group 2 games that you normally see with 10k left, only with 100 to go.

 

[Peter von]

Agree. Only thing that might be said in defense is that the group behind - MVDP, Hirschi, Remco, etc - really didn't cooperate well at all. Remco launched repeated attacks when other riders had been pulling which really must have been completely off-putting anyone to do any type of serious work. I'd say it was Remco - not surprisingly as he really lacks aptitude and style - that sealed Pog's victory. Pog should send him a Thank You-card...

Remco got frustrated because some weren't pulling, but he got MVP working and a few others and if they could keep that up they stood a decent chance of catching Pogi. but he then created a gap to try and force more to chase resulting in a total break down of relations in the group and everyone trying to get away in a smaller group.

 

[Barkintheeye]

Remco got frustrated because some weren't pulling, but he got MVP working and a few others and if they could keep that up they stood a decent chance of catching Pogi. but he then created a gap to try and force more to chase resulting in a total break down of relations in the group and everyone trying to get away in a smaller group.

Well at least Remco ultimately paid for it missing the podium completely.

Mano-a-mano Pogacar was definitely the strongest on the course. Yet, had the Remco / MVDP group caught him he most likely would not have succeeded. A podium yes, a win... probably not. Hence it was a smarter move than first appeared. There was always the chance that in-fighting in the peloton would ensue.

Also well deserved by O'Connor to grab that slim opportunity and get a silver medal.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Well at least Remco ultimately paid for it missing the podium completely.

Mano-a-mano Pogacar was definitely the strongest on the course. Yet, had the Remco / MVDP group caught him he most likely would not have succeeded. A podium yes, a win... probably not. Hence it was a smarter move than first appeared. There was always the chance that in-fighting in the peloton would ensue.

Also well deserved by O'Connor to grab that slim opportunity and get a silver medal.

Had the peleton caught him very early (i.e. 70-80 km from the line) he would have tried again later (with high probability of success IMO).

If the group of favorites had caught him later then he would have been doomed. But that's the way it is during races: one can't expect chasing group to work very well every time (it's quite often they don't), those great cyclists with big egos obviously don't want to drag others behind and have ambitions to attack alone. Their fatigue was also increasing, no radios made it more complicated as well. Still, they would've probably caught any other guy yesterday but Pogacar is not your random guy!

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

This, although I cannot believe they thought he would fold. He's been doing that all year. They were playing Group 2 games that you normally see with 10k left, only with 100 to go.

Both Remco and MvDP stated post race that they had a short chattering with each other when Pogi went and agreed that it was a suicide attack and they were sure Pogi would go stone cold at some moment.
It is, after all, a different level than the Strade Bianche (Pogi on beforehand pics a point +80km before the finish line and then carries it out on the roads).
Myself I was in doubt until after the last descent, i.e. just with 8-9 km to go, I was thinking "Pogi has this in his bag".

Ofc it was way too late for the other favourites to discover the danger, and using sticks for a festival of counter attacks on the last lap didn't do any good. If MvDP, Hirschi, Remco, Skuijns, Healey, O'Conner, Simmons had found an unbroken collaboration with e.g. 60km to go, then in my world they would have timed it, so Pogi was out of the game in the final. Was my POV right since Pogi decided for an exploration of a journey.

But luckily, bike racing doesn't work like that with personalities.
And instead we got a poundingly intense race with our nerves on the outside of our clothes until three quarters of the way into the last lap.

At least I had an exhillerating time.
I can read others, between the lines, comparing the WC RR with other races where Pogi has finished it from far away and therefore with 100km again writes "race decided, how boring".

I think it's a shame, because you miss a lot of good details that way.

Details that for me made this edition one of the very best since I begun following the men's WC RR in 1980 Sallanches.

 

[Danskebjerge]

It's kind of positive to see how many people still apply the old logic to cycling, insisting that if a rider goes in a solo breakaway, he can be caught if only the others cooperate. I do think that's the way it should be in most cases. But it isn't any longer, and it hasn't been like that for some years. Why do people continue to believe that Pogacar's solo wins can always be prevented? It's like he has won like this a hundred times, and yet we still see that naive claim that his success is based on tactics. It's not. His success is based on his ability to push MANY more watts than the others. All the riders acknowledge this - he's on a totally different level. But a surprisingly big number of cycling fans won't realise it. It must have some kind of psychological reason.

 

[Salvarani]

It's kind of positive to see how many people still apply the old logic to cycling, insisting that if a rider goes in a solo breakaway, he can be caught if only the others cooperate. I do think that's the way it should be in most cases. But it isn't any longer, and it hasn't been like that for some years. Why do people continue to believe that Pogacar's solo wins can always be prevented? It's like he has won like this a hundred times, and yet we still see that naive claim that his success is based on tactics. It's not. His success is based on his ability to push MANY more watts than the others. All the riders acknowledge this - he's on a totally different level. But a surprisingly big number of cycling fans won't realise it. It must have some kind of psychological reason.

Some regonizes him as the GOAT. Like legends of the sport already does. Current riders as well.

Others, they dont. Maybe they need more time to see it.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

It's kind of positive to see how many people still apply the old logic to cycling, insisting that if a rider goes in a solo breakaway, he can be caught if only the others cooperate. I do think that's the way it should be in most cases. But it isn't any longer, and it hasn't been like that for some years. Why do people continue to believe that Pogacar's solo wins can always be prevented? It's like he has won like this a hundred times, and yet we still see that naive claim that his success is based on tactics. It's not. His success is based on his ability to push MANY more watts than the others. All the riders acknowledge this - he's on a totally different level. But a surprisingly big number of cycling fans won't realise it. It must have some kind of psychological reason.

To me it's highly due to I regard the worlds being a completely other level of competition.
In his spring of Strade Bianche I had no doubt that the race was over in the moment he went at Monte Sante Maria +80km from the finish line.

Still there is an ingredient of impressiveness for me.
And that what we are witnessing in these years is something very special and for me it is just about enjoying it while it is. Also regarding MvDP in P-R and likewise displays.

I don't know if I'm too indulgent (or too ignorant not to let myself indulge in the clinical debate[[content deleted]]).

Here a starting point for the debate on this subject:

Tadej Pogačar’s 80-kilometre Strade Bianche solo - Boring racing or an enjoyable spectacle?

The Slovenian’s performance evoked a sense of both amazement and defeat

www.rouleur.cc

Of course, I always prefer a race that has excitement all the way to the finish line.

But when Pogi showed weakness on the last lap after no time with more than 1:30 min advance on his main competitors for an entire 100k of breakaway, well then it was a nice unknown who for me maintained the intensity in the race.

 

[Danskebjerge]

But when Pogi showed weakness on the last lap after no time with more than 1:30 min advance on his main competitors for an entire 100k of breakaway, well then it was a nice unknown who for me maintained the intensity in the race.

I was about to think so too at that point, but since I couldn't recall any similar situation where Pogacar has cracked, I didn't get too excited tbh.

It was, like RedRick wrote, just an illusion like when Vingegaard beat him in a sprint in the Tour.

Tactics is more or less dead in men's cycling, except for the lower rated races and in sprinter races.

 

[Barkintheeye]

Tactics is more or less dead in men's cycling, except for the lower rated races and in sprinter races.

Some truth in that yet MSR and PR will still prove a big challenge to him. Probably he can do it but it will be harder than this win.

 

[Danskebjerge]

We need more unpredictable races, like this one:

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/A8xYp3SZkao?si=uqK_GmF9i84T0klq

 

[DenisMenchov]

I was about to think so too at that point, but since I couldn't recall any similar situation where Pogacar has cracked, I didn't get too excited tbh.

It was, like RedRick wrote, just an illusion like when Vingegaard beat him in a sprint in the Tour.

Tactics is more or less dead in men's cycling, except for the lower rated races and in sprinter races.

You can call tactics dead all you want, but it was quite obvious during live broadcast that once Novak was done, his best chance of winning is attack the peloton then and there. Roglic looked like dogs**** and Belgium had 6! riders in the peloton with Netherlands having both Mollema and MVDP. His main goal in this race was to get in front of Remco and MVDP and that's what he did, Belgium and Netherlands instead of realizing the danger immediately wasted precious kilometers in first establishing the chase and then just controlling with Campenaerts vs Tratnik instead of reeling him in with everyone, they blew their whole team on the climb and destroyed both themselves and the peloton. Once the group was destroyed they wasted more energy in constant attacks then Pogi did upfront.

If Pogi doesn't go in front of Remco, MVPD and Hirshi I doubt he wins this. All it takes is one attack to stick and no one wants to work with him anymore.

Yes, Pogi was the strongest rider in the race, but he also won it with tactics. Belgium did horrible and ended up without a medal, that tells a lot about this race or are you telling me that Remco is just not good enough to beat BOC in a one day race?