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Contador lost significant time on the Andorra stage, but hasn't given up the GC to stage hunt, instead trying to claw his way back slowly. I tend to think Bardet's tactics are more likely to provide a victory of some kind by the end of the race.
I think there are big similarities between the two in terms of shape. Bardet lost a bit of time on the Alcossebre stage and then decided to give up all GC hopes and stage hunt, losing loads of time the next day. Since then he's attacked or been in the break quite regulrarly.LaFlorecita said:
Contador lost significant time on the Andorra stage, but hasn't given up the GC to stage hunt, instead trying to claw his way back slowly. I tend to think Bardet's tactics are more likely to provide a victory of some kind by the end of the race.
Clearly Contador's time loss was down to a bad day (illness) while Bardet's due to him not having the legs. Contador knew there was a huge chance he could still deliver GC wise while Bardet knew he'd just bleed more and more time. Moreover, Contador started this Vuelta with the GC victory as his goal while Bardet said he wanted to win a stage. It's entirely logical that their approach to the remaining part of the Vuelta is different.
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I disagree, I don't think Contador's approach at the moment is the most logical. He should be doing what Bardet is doing imo - maximize his chances of getting something out of the race.LaFlorecita said:
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Bardet had no chance at a high GC placing as he is climbing too poorly so it made sense for him to discard that option and focus solely on stage wins.
He has said he wants to go for both GC and a stage win and he still has a shot at either so it is logical that he isn't discarding one or the other.DFA123 said:
Bardet had no chance at a high GC placing as he is climbing too poorly so it made sense for him to discard that option and focus solely on stage wins.
I have the feeling that as long as he desperately tries to hold onto Froome's wheel he won't win any stage. He did the right thing today but just lacked a bit to follow and a little more to threaten López who couldn't feel the chain. So know he knows that. Muchacos might be the best opportunity, or Pandera, but stage 15 is possibly the stage where he can create the most havoc. Then you have Angliru. And the few stages proceeding that stage, but I can't see him winning any of those.
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Maybe your values are different from his. Competing with the other gc contenders in the mountains apparently holds more value to him than the compromise of giving up time intentionally for the purpose of being given the freedom to chase a stage victory. Of course a stage win is important but how he gets it is more valuable to him IMO. It may not be logical to you but pride is a strong motivator, especially for a rider that has been at the top of his sport.
DFA123 said:
Maybe your values are different from his. Competing with the other gc contenders in the mountains apparently holds more value to him than the compromise of giving up time intentionally for the purpose of being given the freedom to chase a stage victory. Of course a stage win is important but how he gets it is more valuable to him IMO. It may not be logical to you but pride is a strong motivator, especially for a rider that has been at the top of his sport.
I have the feeling the Contador of the last few years lacks stamina somehow.
Great in shorter stages, great even on shorter climbs and stage races, but bad when the going gets really tough (LONG + hard). Like he consistently blows himself up
Great in shorter stages, great even on shorter climbs and stage races, but bad when the going gets really tough (LONG + hard). Like he consistently blows himself up
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- first climb of the stage
- short stages
- short climbs after an easy day
- MTTs
But then when there are multiple hard climbs or the stage is raced very rapidly he struggles or at least cannot replicate the great performance he showed on different occasions.
Interestingly, on the rest day he said he feels the upcoming climbs suit him better and (even more surprisingly) that he hopes the stages are raced hard. Either it is reverse psychology or he still lives in the past. Or he knows something we don't!
I agree and it's something I've mentioned several times before, but seems not everyone agrees. He has shown great legs onDekker_Tifosi said:
- first climb of the stage
- short stages
- short climbs after an easy day
- MTTs
But then when there are multiple hard climbs or the stage is raced very rapidly he struggles or at least cannot replicate the great performance he showed on different occasions.
Interestingly, on the rest day he said he feels the upcoming climbs suit him better and (even more surprisingly) that he hopes the stages are raced hard. Either it is reverse psychology or he still lives in the past. Or he knows something we don't!
Pretty much that. And short climb stages that are raced rather conservatively, like stage 9, doesn't suit him either since he isn't explosive really and can't retaliate a sudden hard acceleration like Froome made. Needs a linear very hard pace on such climbs, thats where he is incredibly good. He can sit above threshold for a long time but can't replicate that in the same stage and when the Sky train is going at threshold for a good amount of time, he can't produce that one extremely potent effort he otherwise has at his disposal which make him super dangerous and is his greatest weapon. We have seen that effort time and time again just this year in Paris-Nice, to Foix, Madeleine, Sagunt, Cati etc. etc. And when he does that we instantly think that when he can do stuff like that, why can't he win the Tour?...
I think he could win on Pandera if he let Froomey and Nibali battle and it plays into him.
I think he could win on Pandera if he let Froomey and Nibali battle and it plays into him.
Yes, so to conclude, these days really only a small number of stages suit his characteristics.
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Hola a todos!
I completely agree with the bolded part.
I think it's a bit silly to compare Bardet and Contador this way. Their palmares, their experiences, their motivations are completely different, so I can't understand why anyone says Contador should race like Bardet.
First, Alberto declared that he came here to entertain - and in this, he is very successful.
Second - winning a stage is a relative success. Alberto won several GTs without winning a stage. There were also stages where he could have won, but he gave it away. And when he finally won stages? Fuente Dé, for example? It was epic. Or his ride up Mortirolo? He did not even win that one, still... I think for him, a simple stage win in the records means very little. I think he wouldn't be satisfied with less than a story remembered for ages.
So, I think he values the STORY more than the stage win. If he wins something, it's going to be spectacular.
Angliru said:
Hola a todos!
I completely agree with the bolded part.
I think it's a bit silly to compare Bardet and Contador this way. Their palmares, their experiences, their motivations are completely different, so I can't understand why anyone says Contador should race like Bardet.
First, Alberto declared that he came here to entertain - and in this, he is very successful.
Second - winning a stage is a relative success. Alberto won several GTs without winning a stage. There were also stages where he could have won, but he gave it away. And when he finally won stages? Fuente Dé, for example? It was epic. Or his ride up Mortirolo? He did not even win that one, still... I think for him, a simple stage win in the records means very little. I think he wouldn't be satisfied with less than a story remembered for ages.
So, I think he values the STORY more than the stage win. If he wins something, it's going to be spectacular.
This is what jens_attacks says on his twitter
"Contador passed the exam, he still has a chance for the podium. Brutal days to come, great recovery and experience are a big advantage."
Interesting note about recovery and experience
"Contador passed the exam, he still has a chance for the podium. Brutal days to come, great recovery and experience are a big advantage."
Interesting note about recovery and experience
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As you say, I don't think a win from the break would mean much to him. It would feel "gifted". He wants to win against the best, to feel the best (on that particular stage). Of course, I really wish for him to win a stage because I think he deserves to have a least one victory this year and I don't really care how he gets it, but I can understand why he would feel differently.Angliru said:
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Not often I say this about a LaFlo comment regarding AC, but spot on - I completely agree!
LaFlorecita said:
Not often I say this about a LaFlo comment regarding AC, but spot on - I completely agree!
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Have to agree. Unless something so lucky happens he may as well save energy and lose loads of time and go for a stage win. The other serious GC contenders are not gonna let him out of their sight and he is slowly losing more and more time. Save face and get into a break for a stage win before its too late.
DFA123 said:
Have to agree. Unless something so lucky happens he may as well save energy and lose loads of time and go for a stage win. The other serious GC contenders are not gonna let him out of their sight and he is slowly losing more and more time. Save face and get into a break for a stage win before its too late.
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To lose time on purpose and hunt for stages would be to admit he no longer has it as a stage racer and that all those who doubted him the last few years were right all along. I can understand why he'd rather give it his all for GC and try to finish as high up as possible. He may fail like in the Tour, but it won't be for a lack of trying. And personally I think there's something very admirable about a champion in decline struggling up those climbs, grimacing and fighting with every bit of energy he has left in those legs. It stings a bit as it makes me reminisce about the good times, but also makes me appreciate everything he has achieved so much more and it truly shows his willpower, dedication and fighting spirit.
Save face... for what?wheresmybrakes said:
To lose time on purpose and hunt for stages would be to admit he no longer has it as a stage racer and that all those who doubted him the last few years were right all along. I can understand why he'd rather give it his all for GC and try to finish as high up as possible. He may fail like in the Tour, but it won't be for a lack of trying. And personally I think there's something very admirable about a champion in decline struggling up those climbs, grimacing and fighting with every bit of energy he has left in those legs. It stings a bit as it makes me reminisce about the good times, but also makes me appreciate everything he has achieved so much more and it truly shows his willpower, dedication and fighting spirit.
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I don't think his employers have anything to complain about.
This is Alberto's last race, in his home country. Even if he would ride around, waving at the crowds and getting last places on every stage, he would still make more profit than an average rider, so yes, I think his employers would let him do whatever he wants to do in this race.
wheresmybrakes said:
I don't think his employers have anything to complain about.
This is Alberto's last race, in his home country. Even if he would ride around, waving at the crowds and getting last places on every stage, he would still make more profit than an average rider, so yes, I think his employers would let him do whatever he wants to do in this race.
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Beautifully written
Btw, I don't think Alberto or his body understands the concept of losing time willingly
It's his fighting spirit we love
LaFlorecita said:
Beautifully written
Btw, I don't think Alberto or his body understands the concept of losing time willingly
It's his fighting spirit we love
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Why? Because he's extremely professional, lifts any team to a higher level, will get huge media attention no matter what, is still one of the biggest brands in cycling and provides very detailed feedback on sponsors' products, which is extremely important to them.
His employers were willing to do anything to keep him for next year, despite the lack of wins.wheresmybrakes said:
Why? Because he's extremely professional, lifts any team to a higher level, will get huge media attention no matter what, is still one of the biggest brands in cycling and provides very detailed feedback on sponsors' products, which is extremely important to them.
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His employers will be delighted! They have record breaking crowds around the bus. A team leader who is apparently adored by fans and respected by even his past detractors for what he brings to the sport, (apparently whether he wins or not). Their bikes are associated with a great champion who has won pretty much everything, and now shows courage and grit and tenacity beyond a lot of the younger riders who also raced the Tour, even as age catches up. A win is a cherry, at most - as LaFlo says, its the narrative that's important. He's honouring himself, the team, the race and the fans and fighting to the bitter end. No one is going to remember that he finished 4th on GC or 6th. I'm not sure whether they'll really remember a stage win unless it's an epic stage, like Angliru. If I were Trek I'd merely be encouraging him to enjoy himself each day, do what he feels, and take every opportunity to light up the race.
LaFlorecita said:
His employers will be delighted! They have record breaking crowds around the bus. A team leader who is apparently adored by fans and respected by even his past detractors for what he brings to the sport, (apparently whether he wins or not). Their bikes are associated with a great champion who has won pretty much everything, and now shows courage and grit and tenacity beyond a lot of the younger riders who also raced the Tour, even as age catches up. A win is a cherry, at most - as LaFlo says, its the narrative that's important. He's honouring himself, the team, the race and the fans and fighting to the bitter end. No one is going to remember that he finished 4th on GC or 6th. I'm not sure whether they'll really remember a stage win unless it's an epic stage, like Angliru. If I were Trek I'd merely be encouraging him to enjoy himself each day, do what he feels, and take every opportunity to light up the race.
Oh man, I just realized that contador will retire in 10 days. Huh... cycling will not be the same
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