Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[LanLions]

Re: Re:

Yes I do. Did you watch the tour and see Froome getting dragged around by Thomas when he was in trouble?
Froome can only ride 1 way . That's behind his team then attack on the last climb. I don't recall Froome ever really laying it on the line from a long way out do you? He's a one mountain man.

To be fair, it seems that way only because if he is in his top shape, he is just leagues above anyone else.

And he did attack from quite far out in last Vuelta when he was in subpar condition

Leagues above anyone else Like at the tour when he hung on for dear life after getting a beating from Quintana in the last week or are you talking about the dauphine where TJ dropped him or at the start of the year when Bertie beat him in a TT and dropped him from 10km out or do you want to go back to 2014 when Bertie kicked his a%% all year or do you want to go back to 2013 when he won the tour against sub par opposition. Froome is a great rider but
Leagues above anyone else ,don't make me laugh.

Wait, who won the Tour?
The guy showed he is good on all terrains, has good tactical sense, destroyed everyone on first MTF, had huge gap in GC, and then just controlled the race. Did exactly the same in 2013. What else do you want?

And even though the other things you mentioned were prep races.......can you remind me who won them?

He won the Tour fair and square, yes. But he has no style, his team nullifies racing, and he has never faced anyone who could beat him in the tour (Contador in top shape)... So if Froome doesn't race, doesn't beat the best, and is quite honestly boring. How can he be the best? (tedium aside)

 

[damian13ster]

Re: Re:

Yes I do. Did you watch the tour and see Froome getting dragged around by Thomas when he was in trouble?
Froome can only ride 1 way . That's behind his team then attack on the last climb. I don't recall Froome ever really laying it on the line from a long way out do you? He's a one mountain man.

To be fair, it seems that way only because if he is in his top shape, he is just leagues above anyone else.

And he did attack from quite far out in last Vuelta when he was in subpar condition

Leagues above anyone else Like at the tour when he hung on for dear life after getting a beating from Quintana in the last week or are you talking about the dauphine where TJ dropped him or at the start of the year when Bertie beat him in a TT and dropped him from 10km out or do you want to go back to 2014 when Bertie kicked his a%% all year or do you want to go back to 2013 when he won the tour against sub par opposition. Froome is a great rider but
Leagues above anyone else ,don't make me laugh.

Wait, who won the Tour?
The guy showed he is good on all terrains, has good tactical sense, destroyed everyone on first MTF, had huge gap in GC, and then just controlled the race. Did exactly the same in 2013. What else do you want?

And even though the other things you mentioned were prep races.......can you remind me who won them?

He won the Tour fair and square, yes. But he has no style, his team nullifies racing, and he has never faced anyone who could beat him in the tour (Contador in top shape)... So if Froome doesn't race, doesn't beat the best, and is quite honestly boring. How can he be the best? (tedium aside)

He does beat the best. All the best were there in 2013 bar Nibali, all the best were there in 2015 as well. So he does races, does race the best, wins against them easily, without heroics (hence boring), isn't that a proof that the guy is the best?

 

[LanLions]

Re: Re:

He does beat the best. All the best were there in 2013 bar Nibali, all the best were there in 2015 as well. So he does races, does race the best, wins against them easily, without heroics (hence boring), isn't that a proof that the guy is the best?

My point was that he has never faced Contador top shape, until he does (hopefully 2016) you can never say that Froome is a great. It truly is as simple as that.

 

[damian13ster]

Re: Re:

He does beat the best. All the best were there in 2013 bar Nibali, all the best were there in 2015 as well. So he does races, does race the best, wins against them easily, without heroics (hence boring), isn't that a proof that the guy is the best?

My point was that he has never faced Contador top shape, until he does (hopefully 2016) you can never say that Froome is a great. It truly is as simple as that.

Contador in a top shape is like a Loch Ness monster. Some claim it exists, some claim they have seen it, but there is zero proof it actually exists.

 

[LanLions]

Re: Re:

He does beat the best. All the best were there in 2013 bar Nibali, all the best were there in 2015 as well. So he does races, does race the best, wins against them easily, without heroics (hence boring), isn't that a proof that the guy is the best?

My point was that he has never faced Contador top shape, until he does (hopefully 2016) you can never say that Froome is a great. It truly is as simple as that.

Contador in a top shape is like a Loch Ness monster. Some claim it exists, some claim they have seen it, but there is zero proof it actually exists.

Dauphine 2014? Was it stage 2 where Contador matched Froome to the line after not racing for several weeks longer than Froome?

 

[LanLions]

Re: Re:

He does beat the best. All the best were there in 2013 bar Nibali, all the best were there in 2015 as well. So he does races, does race the best, wins against them easily, without heroics (hence boring), isn't that a proof that the guy is the best?

My point was that he has never faced Contador top shape, until he does (hopefully 2016) you can never say that Froome is a great. It truly is as simple as that.

Contador in a top shape is like a Loch Ness monster. Some claim it exists, some claim they have seen it, but there is zero proof it actually exists.

Dauphine 2014? Was it stage 2 where Contador matched Froome to the line after not racing for several weeks longer than Froome?

This is all you need to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKDgNRGUIuA

 

[damian13ster]

Re: Re:

He does beat the best. All the best were there in 2013 bar Nibali, all the best were there in 2015 as well. So he does races, does race the best, wins against them easily, without heroics (hence boring), isn't that a proof that the guy is the best?

My point was that he has never faced Contador top shape, until he does (hopefully 2016) you can never say that Froome is a great. It truly is as simple as that.

Contador in a top shape is like a Loch Ness monster. Some claim it exists, some claim they have seen it, but there is zero proof it actually exists.

Dauphine 2014? Was it stage 2 where Contador matched Froome to the line after not racing for several weeks longer than Froome?

Yes, in a prep race he wasn't dropped when sitting on Froome's wheel for entire climb, and still wasn't able to pass him. That's why I said 'some claim they have seen him'.

 

[LanLions]

Re: Re:

He does beat the best. All the best were there in 2013 bar Nibali, all the best were there in 2015 as well. So he does races, does race the best, wins against them easily, without heroics (hence boring), isn't that a proof that the guy is the best?

My point was that he has never faced Contador top shape, until he does (hopefully 2016) you can never say that Froome is a great. It truly is as simple as that.

Contador in a top shape is like a Loch Ness monster. Some claim it exists, some claim they have seen it, but there is zero proof it actually exists.

Dauphine 2014? Was it stage 2 where Contador matched Froome to the line after not racing for several weeks longer than Froome?

Yes, in a prep race he wasn't dropped when sitting on Froome's wheel for entire climb, and still wasn't able to pass him. That's why I said 'some claim they have seen him'.

Contador hadn't raced as recently as Froome, that explains the slight fitness gap between the two.

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

It's pretty obvious who is the best GC rider in this generation after today.

Look at quintana and froome. So where are all the contador haters now? LMAO

And Aru proved me wrong, he's really good and contador had to fight against that team in the giro.

I think today people finally realised what Contador was up against and what challenge it really was

No, there will still be a chosen few who still will try to minimize/tear down Contador's season to build up another rider's by comparison.

Sadly true.

I personally do believe the Vuelta highlights how impressive Contador's performance was - perhaps less physically though than mentally. Maybe his form wasn't that mythical 'peak' at any time, had he been, then maybe he would have won the two together. Maybe if it hadn't been so hot or the moon had been in a different house…all that would've should've could've… sigh.

But what Contador sustained over the Giro-Tour mentally as well as physically is much more impressive IMO than what any other rider has done this year. Contador laid down a challenge which put a lot of pressure on himself for a prolonged period. He set himself up to fail and for just the kind of wear-him-down tactics he got from Astana. Winning a v tough Giro with a considerably weaker team such that he effectively solo'd many stages showed extraordinary mental fortitude as well as physical 'form'. 'Form' is only part of the story - it' s much easier to win when you have it. Not being on top 2014 form for either GT and still beating virtually everybody else in both just shows how great he is.

For me, the Mortirolo stage was mentally and physically impressive and the equal individual effort to any one else's one day imo. And let's not forget - despite all those people who claimed he 'made it up' or 'wasn't really that hurt' - he also had a shoulder subluxation during the Giro ( an aside, but I note no one claims that Froome's / TJs / Another's injuries aren't for real, or that they are a drama queen, or that nine doctors will lie about it an injury because whoever needs an excuse or whatever nonsense was said about Contador in the Giro.(Or indeed, the Tour after his leg injury))

Contador then rode the Tour and came fifth against the other major GC contenders who peaked for it and didn't ride the Giro - as opposed to a GT where most of the top fellow GT contenders (Aru aside) are also on their second GT in a row. It's a totally different ball game; it completely changes the tactics, not only makes for more comparable physical conditions of your main rivals. We'll see where they all come in the end but I do believe what we have seen thus far puts a bit more perspective and lustre to ACs performance

It saddens me though that the endless Froome - Contador debate might overshadow other performances which might bear comparison…like, where might Quintana and, indeed, Valverde come…because at 2nd and 3rd in the Tour to pull off anything in the Vuelta will be mighty impressive. Love AC though I do, and even if it'll take some lustre away from him, I'd still love to see the ole wheel sucker pull something out of the bag this Vuelta, though I doubt it.

Or indeed, what looks like could be an Aru 2nd and 1st in the Giro Vuelta….where does that put Aru on the 'mythical peak form' benchmark?

I suppose I shouldn't mind all the mean-spiritedness - after all, when the measure of a guy is either: 1. comparison with a younger, more successful version of himself, or 2. that he has 'failed' when he fails to pull off 'the impossible', it says a lot about him and his rivals .

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Some fellas thought that winning tour-vuelta is piece of cake
Ridiculous

The great one remains the great one

Jens

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Yes, in a prep race he wasn't dropped when sitting on Froome's wheel for entire climb, and still wasn't able to pass him. That's why I said 'some claim they have seen him'.

Pais Vasco stage 1, two weeks before Valverde set the Mur de Huy record, Contador dropped Valverde on a climb similar to Mur de Huy "7.5 W/kg for 7 minutes"

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Yes I do. Did you watch the tour and see Froome getting dragged around by Thomas when he was in trouble?
Froome can only ride 1 way . That's behind his team then attack on the last climb. I don't recall Froome ever really laying it on the line from a long way out do you? He's a one mountain man.

To be fair, it seems that way only because if he is in his top shape, he is just leagues above anyone else.

And he did attack from quite far out in last Vuelta when he was in subpar condition

Leagues above anyone else Like at the tour when he hung on for dear life after getting a beating from Quintana in the last week or are you talking about the dauphine where TJ dropped him or at the start of the year when Bertie beat him in a TT and dropped him from 10km out or do you want to go back to 2014 when Bertie kicked his a%% all year or do you want to go back to 2013 when he won the tour against sub par opposition. Froome is a great rider but
Leagues above anyone else ,don't make me laugh.

Wait, who won the Tour?
The guy showed he is good on all terrains, has good tactical sense, destroyed everyone on first MTF, had huge gap in GC, and then just controlled the race, while having urine thrown at him and apparently getting sick. Did exactly the same in 2013. What else do you want?

And even though the other things you mentioned were prep races.......can you remind me who won them?

All you have done is highlight the points you want to ...you don't mention the fact that without the wind split Froome would have not won the tour. You don't mention or comment on thee beating he took in the last week from Quintana. Then you say he has beaten the best in your other post but the truth is he has not beaten Contador at his best, all 2014 Contador was leagues above Froome and went into this years tour with a giro victory in his legs. And in all honesty do really think Froome would have won this Vuelta...you are just kidding yourself if you think he could have.
leagues above

Take a look at this the proof is all on video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YScKkvHIxwE

 

[mufana]

Both Contador and Froome had a strong 2015 season. For me personally, the best rider still is Contador. No matter how bad (or good) he is, he has always been steady with his performances. Even in 2013 where he placed 4th in the Tour. To me that's what makes him the best grand tour rider. Froome is really good as well. But two grand tour wins does not make him the best.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

It's pretty obvious who is the best GC rider in this generation after today.

Look at quintana and froome. So where are all the contador haters now? LMAO

And Aru proved me wrong, he's really good and contador had to fight against that team in the giro.

I think today people finally realised what Contador was up against and what challenge it really was

No, there will still be a chosen few who still will try to minimize/tear down Contador's season to build up another rider's by comparison.

Sadly true.

I personally do believe the Vuelta highlights how impressive Contador's performance was - perhaps less physically though than mentally. Maybe his form wasn't that mythical 'peak' at any time, had he been, then maybe he would have won the two together. Maybe if it hadn't been so hot or the moon had been in a different house…all that would've should've could've… sigh.

But what Contador sustained over the Giro-Tour mentally as well as physically is much more impressive IMO than what any other rider has done this year. Contador laid down a challenge which put a lot of pressure on himself for a prolonged period. He set himself up to fail and for just the kind of wear-him-down tactics he got from Astana. Winning a v tough Giro with a considerably weaker team such that he effectively solo'd many stages showed extraordinary mental fortitude as well as physical 'form'. 'Form' is only part of the story - it' s much easier to win when you have it. Not being on top 2014 form for either GT and still beating virtually everybody else in both just shows how great he is.

For me, the Mortirolo stage was mentally and physically impressive and the equal individual effort to any one else's one day imo. And let's not forget - despite all those people who claimed he 'made it up' or 'wasn't really that hurt' - he also had a shoulder subluxation during the Giro ( an aside, but I note no one claims that Froome's / TJs / Another's injuries aren't for real, or that they are a drama queen, or that nine doctors will lie about it an injury because whoever needs an excuse or whatever nonsense was said about Contador in the Giro.(Or indeed, the Tour after his leg injury))

Contador then rode the Tour and came fifth against the other major GC contenders who peaked for it and didn't ride the Giro - as opposed to a GT where most of the top fellow GT contenders (Aru aside) are also on their second GT in a row. It's a totally different ball game; it completely changes the tactics, not only makes for more comparable physical conditions of your main rivals. We'll see where they all come in the end but I do believe what we have seen thus far puts a bit more perspective and lustre to ACs performance

It saddens me though that the endless Froome - Contador debate might overshadow other performances which might bear comparison…like, where might Quintana and, indeed, Valverde come…because at 2nd and 3rd in the Tour to pull off anything in the Vuelta will be mighty impressive. Love AC though I do, and even if it'll take some lustre away from him, I'd still love to see the ole wheel sucker pull something out of the bag this Vuelta, though I doubt it.

Or indeed, what looks like could be an Aru 2nd and 1st in the Giro Vuelta….where does that put Aru on the 'mythical peak form' benchmark?

I suppose I shouldn't mind all the mean-spiritedness - after all, when the measure of a guy is either: 1. comparison with a younger, more successful version of himself, or 2. that he has 'failed' when he fails to pull off 'the impossible', it says a lot about him and his rivals .

Thanks Electress, extremely well written and reasoned post.

The nay-sayers will always be there it is simply another measure of his Greatness. Otherwise they'd spend their time less wastefully than ragging on a world class athlete in an on line forum.

The Bolded really says it all .

 

[sir fly]

In order to be called "the best GT rider of his generation" a rider needs, at least, to podium in the greatest of all GTs in 6 years.
Otherwise, his choices can be interpreted like "palmares management"... choosing easier reachable goals and glorifying them through PR activity.
Six years since the Tour podium, folks. Giro and Vuelta victories can't compensate that, and the "dubble bubble" year long hype I don't even want to comment.

 

[Red Rick]

One man has stood on a GT podium 9 times, all which on the highest step (Call it 7 out of 7 if you want, the man still stood there, palmares, record book or no). Another other stood has stood on a GT podium 7 times, of which thrice at the highest step. A third one has 5 GT podiums, of which only 2 wins. These 3 riders are only 2 years

Naturally, the last one is the best GT rider of his generation

It's like arguing Murray is a better tennis player than Djokovic

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Some fellas thought that winning tour-vuelta is piece of cake
Ridiculous

The great one remains the great one

I called Contador that, before I even cheered for him, back in 2010.

Because he was quite simply, the best in the business, the world number 1. Like Federer in tennis a decade ago or Jordan in NBA 2 decades ago etc etc. He went into the race and it was different because it was the TDF champion and only guy to win all 3 and you knew that if he wanted to win the race you were just making up the numbers.

That just isn't the case anymore.

However I wouldn't say Froome is The Great One now. Its not like it was in 2010 with Contador - invincibility.

Just that Contador isn't it any longer.

Because there was shity opposition except Schleck who raced only 2 races a year,not because he was lot better than nowadays.

Contador invincible in 2010? Did you watch that tour? I love Contador but Schleck was the better climber no doubt, watch stage 14, Contador did his best and even Menchov and Sanchez followed his attacks. I think if Schleck hadn't been waiting until the stage 15 he could have dropped Contador easy on that stage, you just need to watch without having a Pro-Contador mindset.. And I'm a big Contador fan btw

EDIT: This is the stage by the way, from Contador's second attack https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvJkDkrYx9M

Yes Contador was invincible in 2010. Even when he was not at his best he still won the Tour de France. He didn't win the Dauphine but basically awarded it to Janez and took 2 stages in the process. Won Paris Nice. There was massive invincibility around Contador.

Any race he wanted to win was his.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Some fellas thought that winning tour-vuelta is piece of cake
Ridiculous

The great one remains the great one

I called Contador that, before I even cheered for him, back in 2010.

Because he was quite simply, the best in the business, the world number 1. Like Federer in tennis a decade ago or Jordan in NBA 2 decades ago etc etc. He went into the race and it was different because it was the TDF champion and only guy to win all 3 and you knew that if he wanted to win the race you were just making up the numbers.

That just isn't the case anymore.

However I wouldn't say Froome is The Great One now. Its not like it was in 2010 with Contador - invincibility.

Just that Contador isn't it any longer.

Because there was shity opposition except Schleck who raced only 2 races a year,not because he was lot better than nowadays.

Even though its a short post, there's so much fail here.

First of all, it wouldn't matter the reason, point still stands. He was the best of the era. Which is all I said. He was invincible and the Great One, since no one could beat him. Doesn't matter if it was because he was facing a bunch of kids on tricycles, it was still true then and isn't now.

Secondly, I don't get where you got the idea that the opposition was shity. I'm guessing because you like the current generation of riders especially NQ you want to make them out to be better than the previous generation.
I don't see evidence of that. There were plenty of great riders.
Fact is all the best guys did the Tour in 2009 and 2010. Several dominant gt winners. The only major gt contender who didn't focus on it either year was Basso and Valverde. Contador beat them all.

Finally Contador was clearly better back then in 2009, 2010, 2011 than now. His TDF 2011 >>>>> his TDF 2015 and his Giro 2011>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>his Giro 2015.

In a way better lineup too. 8 seperate gt winners started the race. Scarponi 2011 >>> 2015 Landa. Nibali 2011>>>>> 2015 Aru. Gadret 2011>>>> whoever came 4th this year. Rujano 2011 >>>>> pretty much everyone 2015 inclduing maybe Contador.

And in that field he won 2 stages, gave another 2 away and finished on the podium of 9 stages + won the points jersey iirc and only didn't win the kom jersey so that the Italians wouldn't riot.

This year he didn't even get a stage.

 

[damian13ster]

Re: Re:

edited out, can't talk about Contador at his best in this section of the forum, even though those are all a facts, and not baseless speculations

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

All you have done is highlight the points you want to ...you don't mention the fact that without the wind split Froome would have not won the tour. You don't mention or comment on thee beating he took in the last week from Quintana. Then you say he has beaten the best in your other post but the truth is he has not beaten Contador at his best, all 2014 Contador was leagues above Froome and went into this years tour with a giro victory in his legs. And in all honesty do really think Froome would have won this Vuelta...you are just kidding yourself if you think he could have.
leagues above

Take a look at this the proof is all on video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YScKkvHIxwE

You are ignoring the fact that the overall GC has an effect on the the tactics in a stage. Froome didn't have to save couple more seconds on stage 20, he could easily just ride at his teammates pace because his victory was never in doubt.
And I am not sure about the Vuelta victory. He had a very good starting position and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he won it, but how can one tell for sure after 9 stages?

I was saying already last season that the double was just pitiful PR move, and shows that Contador is just scared of Froome and putting all eggs in one basket, so Tinkoff-Saxo just made sure they have an excuse if something goes wrong in the Tour, and that the season won't be a total disaster. I posted that the very moment they made an announcement, and guess what.....it turned out to be true.

There is really no point in exchanging arguments like that. You have blinders on when it comes to your favorite rider, which is perfectly normal, it just makes entire discussions pointless

Dude, your entire post is full of bias statements.

 

[Red Rick]

Still think that the whole build up affected his performances this year in a major way, and that his approach this year backfired, because recuperation is also dependent on form.

I also still think that last year we saw the Contador of old in the spring.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

One man has stood on a GT podium 9 times, all which on the highest step (Call it 7 out of 7 if you want, the man still stood there, palmares, record book or no). Another other stood has stood on a GT podium 7 times, of which thrice at the highest step. A third one has 5 GT podiums, of which only 2 wins. These 3 riders are only 2 years

Naturally, the last one is the best GT rider of his generation

It's like arguing Murray is a better tennis player than Djokovic

Treating them all "GTs" misses that Tours are worth much more and harder to win than Giros and Vueltas.

Even so, no one doubts that Contador has achieved the most in Grand Tours of all currently active riders. That doesn't mean he is the best GT rider around today. It's like saying Federer is better than Djokovic. No, he's won more, but Djokovic is the best and has been since ... 2011. What a remarkable coincidence!

 

[cellardoor]

Re:

In order to be called "the best GT rider of his generation" a rider needs, at least, to podium in the greatest of all GTs in 6 years.
Otherwise, his choices can be interpreted like "palmares management"... choosing easier reachable goals and glorifying them through PR activity.
Six years since the Tour podium, folks. Giro and Vuelta victories can't compensate that, and the "dubble bubble" year long hype I don't even want to comment.

The concept of "best of a generation" is kind of flawed anyway as it raises the question of whether say Basso and Quintana are his generation and even with Froome their careers haven't exactly coincided nicely. The thing is that for a 5 year period between 2007 and 2011 Contador looked invincible - it looked like he could just pick and choose the GTs he wanted to win and didn't even need to bother turning up in top shape. That 5 year period would normally be enough domination to count as a "generation" in many cases, but Contador has had quite a long career at the top.

 

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

In order to be called "the best GT rider of his generation" a rider needs, at least, to podium in the greatest of all GTs in 6 years.
Otherwise, his choices can be interpreted like "palmares management"... choosing easier reachable goals and glorifying them through PR activity.
Six years since the Tour podium, folks. Giro and Vuelta victories can't compensate that, and the "dubble bubble" year long hype I don't even want to comment.

The concept of "best of a generation" is kind of flawed anyway as it raises the question of whether say Basso and Quintana are his generation and even with Froome their careers haven't exactly coincided nicely. The thing is that for a 5 year period between 2007 and 2011 Contador looked invincible - it looked like he could just pick and choose the GTs he wanted to win and didn't even need to bother turning up in top shape. That 5 year period would normally be enough domination to count as a "generation" in many cases, but Contador has had quite a long career at the top.

Yes. I didn't want to raise the question of generation, since it would divert the discussion and make it incoherent.
The point is - current GT generation can hardly be considered for 2000's GT generation, but Contador belongs to the 2000's GT generation too.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

One man has stood on a GT podium 9 times, all which on the highest step (Call it 7 out of 7 if you want, the man still stood there, palmares, record book or no). Another other stood has stood on a GT podium 7 times, of which thrice at the highest step. A third one has 5 GT podiums, of which only 2 wins. These 3 riders are only 2 years

Naturally, the last one is the best GT rider of his generation

It's like arguing Murray is a better tennis player than Djokovic

Treating them all "GTs" misses that Tours are worth much more and harder to win than Giros and Vueltas.

Even so, no one doubts that Contador has achieved the most in Grand Tours of all currently active riders. That doesn't mean he is the best GT rider around today. It's like saying Federer is better than Djokovic. No, he's won more, but Djokovic is the best and has been since ... 2011. What a remarkable coincidence!

If you want to discuss the value of the Tour compared to the Giro and Vuelta, let's agree to disagree there. But it's certainly not automatically the hardest race to win.