Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

One man has stood on a GT podium 9 times, all which on the highest step (Call it 7 out of 7 if you want, the man still stood there, palmares, record book or no). Another other stood has stood on a GT podium 7 times, of which thrice at the highest step. A third one has 5 GT podiums, of which only 2 wins. These 3 riders are only 2 years

Naturally, the last one is the best GT rider of his generation

It's like arguing Murray is a better tennis player than Djokovic

Treating them all "GTs" misses that Tours are worth much more and harder to win than Giros and Vueltas.

Even so, no one doubts that Contador has achieved the most in Grand Tours of all currently active riders. That doesn't mean he is the best GT rider around today. It's like saying Federer is better than Djokovic. No, he's won more, but Djokovic is the best and has been since ... 2011. What a remarkable coincidence!

Would Froome have been able to cope with Astana in the mountains like bertie did "THIS YEAR" I doubt it going on his performances this year. He did not exactly cruise the Dauphine even TJ dropped him.
Froome was on the limit the last week of the tour when Quintana gave him a beating. He would have lost Chunks in the 3rd week of the giro against Aru and the Astana machine.

Who was the better rider in 2014 ? Bertie . He beat Froome all that year.

Bertie made it clear that he was going for the double. Froome had the option as well.
Did Bertie shy away From facing the likes of Froome , Quintana , NIbs , In the tour? no he did not. He certainly did not look as tired as the tour boys do at the vuelta. They looked zapped.

So last year Bertie was better than Froome this year they both won a GT . This year Bertie dropped from Froome 10 km and beat him in a ITT this year Bertie beat Quintana a week before the tour [ he should have rested]
How is Froome a better rider? Froome only won the tour because of a wind split.

You know full well that if Bertie comes into 2016 in decent Form then Froome will only podium at best.
The facts don't lie. Assumtptions do.

 

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

One man has stood on a GT podium 9 times, all which on the highest step (Call it 7 out of 7 if you want, the man still stood there, palmares, record book or no). Another other stood has stood on a GT podium 7 times, of which thrice at the highest step. A third one has 5 GT podiums, of which only 2 wins. These 3 riders are only 2 years

Naturally, the last one is the best GT rider of his generation

It's like arguing Murray is a better tennis player than Djokovic

Treating them all "GTs" misses that Tours are worth much more and harder to win than Giros and Vueltas.

Even so, no one doubts that Contador has achieved the most in Grand Tours of all currently active riders. That doesn't mean he is the best GT rider around today. It's like saying Federer is better than Djokovic. No, he's won more, but Djokovic is the best and has been since ... 2011. What a remarkable coincidence!

Would Froome have been able to cope with Astana in the mountains like bertie did "THIS YEAR" I doubt it going on his performances this year. He did not exactly cruise the Dauphine even TJ dropped him.
Froome was on the limit the last week of the tour when Quintana gave him a beating. He would have lost Chunks in the 3rd week of the giro against Aru and the Astana machine.

Who was the better rider in 2014 ? Bertie . He beat Froome all that year.

Bertie made it clear that he was going for the double. Froome had the option as well.
Did Bertie shy away From facing the likes of Froome , Quintana , NIbs , In the tour? no he did not. He certainly did not look as tired as the tour boys do at the vuelta. They looked zapped.

So last year Bertie was better than Froome this year they both won a GT . This year Bertie dropped from Froome 10 km and beat him in a ITT this year Bertie beat Quintana a week before the tour [ he should have rested]
How is Froome a better rider? Froome only won the tour because of a wind split.

You know full well that if Bertie comes into 2016 in decent Form then Froome will only podium at best.
The facts don't lie. Assumtptions do.

Well, ray, your post is full of assumptions regarding eventual Froome's performance in the Giro, and you're comparing incomparable - coming from the Giro and the Tour. Even the time between the races isn't the same, not to mention how it's filled, even more when the participation in the next GT is planned and when it's not.
Contador doesn't have what it takes to win the Tour again, so he's choosing lesser goals and talking them up.
It's simple as that.

 

[BlurryVII]

Who won most GTs since 2011? Contador 3. After all these years, he's still the one winning the most GTs even when you take short intervals.
And crashing out from the GT when he had his best form when everything finally was put together.

There's no question as to who is the best. Tour 13' and Tour 15' are in no way an indicator. 2015 for obvious reasons, and 2013 off season which is understandable for a rider who is running full gas since 2007 and had to train like crazy to win the Vuelta 12' and make up for the lack of racing.

When Froome will stay at the top without a single off season until 2020, then I guess you can talk. 2013 was the perfect timing for him to appear as the better rider . And 2015 because AC dared to face the impossible.

The only time we saw both on great form, was 2014. Contador smashed him in Catalunya, Dauphiné and Vuelta on equal ground. Don't care if Froome wasn't in form in Catalunya or whatever, since I'm still seeing people mentioning 2013.

Plus Froome always gets destroyed in a final week of a GT in what's supposed to be his 'peak', which he actually can't even hold for 3 weeks. Can't handle a crash either, as soon as he crashes, he litterally vanishes. Still one guy who thinks he can win GTs back to back. He isn't even close to it.

It's just about time, 2016 will be the second fair showdown between Contador and Froome since Vuelta 2014 and Contador will show him what's a real metronome . When he hits that peak, it'll be for 3 weeks not for one MTF then hang on for dear life .

 

[dacooley]

pretty interesting discussion. most people as always defend their ring corner. vayavaya's and thehitch's points deserve some respect. they look up to froome very seriously in spite of being bertie fans. well, i wanna be objective it's a draw and this season convinces me there's anyway a glaring gap between contador, froome and others. as to their duel as a whole, in the person of froome, contador for the first time in his career collided with an equal opponent. cadel was a great rider but lacked god's gift to a certain extent. schleck was extremely talented but disastrously lacked a champion mentality. froome has all the necessary qualities. froome is the only guy who can force a tip top bertie to finish in 2nd or 3rd place in the tour and dawg is probably the biggest reason why contador hasn't won anything in the tour since 2010. a month and a half before, froome won the most prestigious gt, the gt with the toughest possible field, the gt many folks advised him not to take part in because of the unhandy parcours, and i don't see how this win can be downplayed.\

It's just about time, 2016 will be the second fair showdown between Contador and Froome since Vuelta 2014 and Contador will show him what's a real metronome . When he hits that peak, it'll be for 3 weeks not for one MTF then hang on for dear life

so you can give 100% guarantees already now in september 2015? allright, the 2013 and 2015 tour are not representive. what gt could we take to make it a reference point.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

pretty interesting discussion. most people as always defend their ring corner. vayavaya's and thehitch's points deserve some respect. they look up to froome very seriously in spite of being bertie fans. well, i wanna be objective it's a draw and this season convinces me there's anyway a glaring gap between contador, froome and others. as to their duel as a whole, in the person of froome, contador for the first time in his career collided with an equal opponent. cadel was a great rider but lacked god's gift to a certain extent. schleck was extremely talented but disastrously lacked a champion mentality. froome has all the necessary qualities. froome is the only guy who can force a tip top bertie to finish in 2nd or 3rd place in the tour and dawg is probably the biggest reason why contador hasn't won anything in the tour since 2010. a month and a half before, froome won the most prestigious gt, the gt with the toughest possible field, the gt many folks advised him not to take part in because of the unhandy parcours, and i don't see how this win can be downplayed.\

It's just about time, 2016 will be the second fair showdown between Contador and Froome since Vuelta 2014 and Contador will show him what's a real metronome . When he hits that peak, it'll be for 3 weeks not for one MTF then hang on for dear life

so you can give 100% guarantees already now in september 2015?

As long as the arguments are valid, who defends who doesn't matter

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

pretty interesting discussion. most people as always defend their ring corner. vayavaya's and thehitch's points deserve some respect. they look up to froome very seriously in spite of being bertie fans. well, i wanna be objective it's a draw and this season convinces me there's anyway a glaring gap between contador, froome and others. as to their duel as a whole, in the person of froome, contador for the first time in his career collided with an equal opponent. cadel was a great rider but lacked god's gift to a certain extent. schleck was extremely talented but disastrously lacked a champion mentality. froome has all the necessary qualities. froome is the only guy who can force a tip top bertie to finish in 2nd or 3rd place in the tour and dawg is probably the biggest reason why contador hasn't won anything in the tour since 2010. a month and a half before, froome won the most prestigious gt, the gt with the toughest possible field, the gt many folks advised him not to take part in because of the unhandy parcours, and i don't see how this win can be downplayed.\

It's just about time, 2016 will be the second fair showdown between Contador and Froome since Vuelta 2014 and Contador will show him what's a real metronome . When he hits that peak, it'll be for 3 weeks not for one MTF then hang on for dear life

so you can give 100% guarantees already now in september 2015?

As long as the arguments are valid, who defends who doesn't matter

the character of suchlike discussions is utterly speculative. all this will be fun to read in 2016 or 2017 as too many things change every year.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

froome is the only guy who can force a tip top bertie to finish in 2nd or 3rd place in the tour and dawg is probably the biggest reason why contador hasn't won anything in the tour since 2010.

Which year, in your opinion, could Contador have won the Tour if not for Froome?

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

froome is the only guy who can force a tip top bertie to finish in 2nd or 3rd place in the tour and dawg is probably the biggest reason why contador hasn't won anything in the tour since 2010.

Which year, in your opinion, could Contador have won the Tour if not for Froome?

Well, he would've won a stage

 

[SeriousSam]

2014

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

froome is the only guy who can force a tip top bertie to finish in 2nd or 3rd place in the tour and dawg is probably the biggest reason why contador hasn't won anything in the tour since 2010.

Which year, in your opinion, could Contador have won the Tour if not for Froome?

i have no clue. i just want to say if there was no froome in the tours the race would've developed differently with a bigger chance for alberto.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

froome is the only guy who can force a tip top bertie to finish in 2nd or 3rd place in the tour and dawg is probably the biggest reason why contador hasn't won anything in the tour since 2010.

Which year, in your opinion, could Contador have won the Tour if not for Froome?

Well, he would've won a stage

Even that, is not certain, because without Froome, for example Jrod (who finished IIRC 1 or 2 seconds behind Alberto) could have been less fatigued and could have won.
Anyway I am still pissed that Dawg denied Alberto that stage win.

Anyway I am sure next year Alberto will be in great shape again and he will show the Alien how it's done.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

2014

Are you suggesting Froome was at home sticking needles into his Alberto voodoo doll which caused him to crash?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

froome is the only guy who can force a tip top bertie to finish in 2nd or 3rd place in the tour and dawg is probably the biggest reason why contador hasn't won anything in the tour since 2010.

Which year, in your opinion, could Contador have won the Tour if not for Froome?

i have no clue. i just want to say if there was no froome in the tours the race would've developed differently with a bigger chance for alberto.

Of course he would have had a bigger chance but I believe he still would have lost.

 

[BlurryVII]

Tour 2011 - 2015: Double attempt, finished 5th both times, Froome or not, AC would have lost anyway

Tour 2014: crash

Tour 2013: Off season, finished 4th, would've still lost without Froome in the race.

Froome's presence in the Tour is actually irrelevant to AC not winning the Tour lol. Bad circumstances are to blame.

 

[BlurryVII]

However! Contador's presence at the Vuelta 2014 is to blame for Froome not winning

 

[Angliru]

I don't really understand why the 2014 Vuelta gets so little bearing in this discussion. Contador and Froome head-to-head with both having prior to the Vuelta left the Tour due to injuries. Curiously, most of the Froome delegation sees his appearance there as little more than a need to get a grand tour in his legs for 2014, not with any real intent on actually seriously contending for the win, although this reasoning was made after the fact.
Short change is given to Contador's win using this reasoning, as if Froome was more severely handicapped by his injuries than Contador. That Contador's injuries were fiction or exaggerated for dramatic effect while Froome's were serious and the proof is in the fact that he didn't win the Vuelta. I think both sides ignore certain facts/details to further their own arguments BUT it can't be ignored that Froome was beaten by Contador head to head in the Vuelta. This is a Contador that was believed to have had the best form he'd had in years leading up to the Tour, form that obviuosly he carried, partially, to Vuelta. Where in the past a Froome attack would leave all of his rivals choking on his dust, in 2014 that was no longer the case when it came to Contador. That to me is all the proof I need to know that Contador is still capable of giving Froome just as much as he can dish out and I agree that they are head and shoulders above the rest of the grand tour contenders when they are both in top form.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Angliru with a sensible reply as usual

 

[damian13ster]

Not really a sensible reply. Basically he is saying to ignore circumstances of that season (Froome crashing multiple times starting at Dauphine), yet not to ignore circumstances in 2013 and 2015 Tours. Pretty bad double standards here, especially considering that Tour was actually targeted by Contador in both of those years, and Froome didn't target Vuelta in 2014.

2014 Vuelta should get as much if not less (due to this not being a targeted race) bearing in the discussion as 2013 and 2015 Tour

 

[Ruby United]

Re:

I don't really understand why the 2014 Vuelta gets so little bearing in this discussion. Contador and Froome head-to-head with both having prior to the Vuelta left the Tour due to injuries. Curiously, most of the Froome delegation sees his appearance there as little more than a need to get a grand tour in his legs for 2014, not with any real intent on actually seriously contending for the win, although this reasoning was made after the fact.
Short change is given to Contador's win using this reasoning, as if Froome was more severely handicapped by his injuries than Contador. That Contador's injuries were fiction or exaggerated for dramatic effect while Froome's were serious and the proof is in the fact that he didn't win the Vuelta. I think both sides ignore certain facts/details to further their own arguments BUT it can't be ignored that Froome was beaten by Contador head to head in the Vuelta. This is a Contador that was believed to have had the best form he'd had in years leading up to the Tour, form that obviuosly he carried, partially, to Vuelta. Where in the past a Froome attack would leave all of his rivals choking on his dust, in 2014 that was no longer the case when it came to Contador. That to me is all the proof I need to know that Contador is still capable of giving Froome just as much as he can dish out and I agree that they are head and shoulders above the rest of the grand tour contenders when they are both in top form.

I agree with most things you said, but I still maintain that Contador and Froome have never had an even, fair battle; next year's Tour is the last chance to see that

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Not really a sensible reply. Basically he is saying to ignore circumstances of that season (Froome crashing multiple times starting at Dauphine), yet not to ignore circumstances in 2013 and 2015 Tours. Pretty bad double standards here, especially considering that Tour was actually targeted by Contador in both of those years, and Froome didn't target Vuelta in 2014.

2014 Vuelta should get as much if not less (due to this not being a targeted race) bearing in the discussion as 2013 and 2015 Tour

Let's not ignore circumstances. Contador rode the Giro in 2015. In that Giro, he crashed and dislocated his shoulder at least once and was uncertain of continuing. He then held of Aru and Landa and the whole Astana team on his own throughout the Giro. Then he came to the Tour and sucked.

Do you know why nobody tries the double anymore? Cause they all suck (i.e. perform far worse than they can) in the Tour after having the ridden the Giro.

And the circumstances of 2013? He was crap all season. He had an complete off season and finished 4th in the Tour.

Froome also had off seasons. 2010, for example, not to forget every year before that

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

Not really a sensible reply. Basically he is saying to ignore circumstances of that season (Froome crashing multiple times starting at Dauphine), yet not to ignore circumstances in 2013 and 2015 Tours. Pretty bad double standards here, especially considering that Tour was actually targeted by Contador in both of those years, and Froome didn't target Vuelta in 2014.

2014 Vuelta should get as much if not less (due to this not being a targeted race) bearing in the discussion as 2013 and 2015 Tour

2015 Tour is completely different - AC had a GT in his legs, and he wasn't competing against a top-form Aru. It was a top-form Froome Quintana and co.

However, I do agree that if you're going to count the 2014 Vuelta as a big head-to-head, then you have to count the 2013 Tour too.

2013 Tour, for what ever reason, AC was not up for it, and Froome beat him fair and square. Once Froome turned up to the 2014 Vuelta, people can't just claim that Froome didn't care about winning it. Of course he did. However, from their interviews prior to the Vuelta, it seemed to me at least (and yeah I'm slightly biased. Trying to be unbiased but can't be 100% sure that I am) that AC seemed very determined to be in the best condition he could when the vuelta came about, while CF wasn't particularly bothered and just marking 2014 as a missed opportunity.

As far as big head-to-heads go between the two, 2014 Criterium and 2015 Ruta Del Sol come to mind. At 2014 Criterium, CF won the TT and stage 2, though AC seemed to be in worse form (Nibali was clearly nowhere near either). At the Ruta del sol they were both in similar form (AC probably in better form as the Giro was earlier than the Tour, but my bias is definitely showing through there), and Froome won by the narrowest of margins, but it was an epic race.

If they're both in top form, and one of them is trying to defend the jersey, I'm not sure either can drop the other on a climb, but Froome is slightly better in the TTs

 

[damian13ster]

Re: Re:

Not really a sensible reply. Basically he is saying to ignore circumstances of that season (Froome crashing multiple times starting at Dauphine), yet not to ignore circumstances in 2013 and 2015 Tours. Pretty bad double standards here, especially considering that Tour was actually targeted by Contador in both of those years, and Froome didn't target Vuelta in 2014.

2014 Vuelta should get as much if not less (due to this not being a targeted race) bearing in the discussion as 2013 and 2015 Tour

Let's not ignore circumstances. Contador rode the Giro in 2015. In that Giro, he crashed and dislocated his shoulder at least once and was uncertain of continuing. He then held of Aru and Landa and the whole Astana team on his own throughout the Giro. Then he came to the Tour and sucked.

Do you know why nobody tries the double anymore? Cause they all suck (i.e. perform far worse than they can) in the Tour after having the ridden the Giro.

And the circumstances of 2013? He was crap all season. He had an complete off season and finished 4th in the Tour.

Froome also had off seasons. 2010, for example, not to forget every year before that

I am not exactly sure what you are getting at? All I said is not to ignore circumstances before Vuelta 2014, which make the race far from indicative of the top level of riders. And if Blurry chooses to ignore that then he should ignore those in 2013 and 2015 as well. Just pointing out double standards

 

[dacooley]

Re:

Tour 2011 - 2015: Double attempt, finished 5th both times, Froome or not, AC would have lost anyway

Tour 2014: crash

Tour 2013: Off season, finished 4th, would've still lost without Froome in the race.

Froome's presence in the Tour is actually irrelevant to AC not winning the Tour lol. Bad circumstances are to blame.

so froome and nibali won the three last tours mainly because two times contador was below par and had to abandon?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Not really a sensible reply. Basically he is saying to ignore circumstances of that season (Froome crashing multiple times starting at Dauphine), yet not to ignore circumstances in 2013 and 2015 Tours. Pretty bad double standards here, especially considering that Tour was actually targeted by Contador in both of those years, and Froome didn't target Vuelta in 2014.

2014 Vuelta should get as much if not less (due to this not being a targeted race) bearing in the discussion as 2013 and 2015 Tour

Let's not ignore circumstances. Contador rode the Giro in 2015. In that Giro, he crashed and dislocated his shoulder at least once and was uncertain of continuing. He then held of Aru and Landa and the whole Astana team on his own throughout the Giro. Then he came to the Tour and sucked.

Do you know why nobody tries the double anymore? Cause they all suck (i.e. perform far worse than they can) in the Tour after having the ridden the Giro.

And the circumstances of 2013? He was crap all season. He had an complete off season and finished 4th in the Tour.

Froome also had off seasons. 2010, for example, not to forget every year before that

I am not exactly sure what you are getting at? All I said is not to ignore circumstances before Vuelta 2014, which make the race far from indicative of the top level of riders. And if Blurry chooses to ignore that then he should ignore those in 2013 and 2015 as well. Just pointing out double standards

I'm a bit confused because I thought Blurry was suggesting that if people use 2013 and 2015 as evidence Froome is better than Contador, ignoring the circumstances, then we should ignore the circumstances in 2014 as well i.e. do exactly what you said? Not sure what you are trying to point out.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Tour 2011 - 2015: Double attempt, finished 5th both times, Froome or not, AC would have lost anyway

Tour 2014: crash

Tour 2013: Off season, finished 4th, would've still lost without Froome in the race.

Froome's presence in the Tour is actually irrelevant to AC not winning the Tour lol. Bad circumstances are to blame.

so froome and nibali won the three last tours mainly because two times contador was below par and had to abandon?

Not mainly but it played a role.