Allen Lim

[Race Radio]

I have first hand info that the machines that CSC/Saxo uses have a +/- 5% measurement error range. I will get the brand and model.

Within a lab setting, one would expect a very low moe range, as you state. I am speaking about the field screening, done by teams and by the UCI.

I make no claim that hydration ALONE can cause a 10 point swing. Toss in some combined factors which are not uncommon to exist, like low sodium levels, slight anemia (from too much EPO and/or recent infusion and/or extreme training), time at altitude and the body position when the sample is taken, then you can easily see 7-10 point swings.

This is part of why it is so easy to "game".

The Landis numbers are from the UCI and they have said the variance of their testing methods is only .3%.

 

[gree0232]

And a couple rest day blood bags and shots of EPO

"In a pre-Tour blood screen from June 29, two days before the 2006 race began, Landis had a hematocrit level of 44.8 percent and hemoglobin level of 15.5. On July 11, 10 stages into the Tour, his hematocrit had increased to 48.2 and his hemoglobin to 16.1."

There is what your source actually says.

It also says:

“Going from 15.5 to 16.1 (in hemoglobin) is not that unusual when not competing,” Ashenden said by phone from Australia. “But it is very unusual to see an increase after a hard week of cycling. You'd expect it to be the reverse. You'd expect that to fall in a clean athlete. An increase like this in the midst of the Tour de France would be highly, highly unlikely.

“There's nothing where I could point to one value and say, 'This guy definitely doped.' But it raises red flags for me. I would definitely recommend to anti-doping authorities that an athlete presenting these values should be target-tested for blood doping.”

One explanation is that readings can fluctuate depending on the machinery or other variables."

NOW Floyd has said he is doping. At the time he was telling the world not to read too much into this and had tasked Allen Lim and others to find a natural occuring methiod for this to have happened.

Floyd now admits to doping. Floyd has been convicted of doping. Floyd's guilt is not the issue. What is an issue is whether Dr. Lim believed Floyd when he said that he was not doping.

Here is some of the stuff that comes out:

"Perhaps because of the UCI's old fixation on hematocrit, many of us similarly key on that value as an indication of clean racing. But according to Ashenden, it's one of the least important. Hematocrit, or the percentage of total blood volume that is red blood cells, fluctuates by large amounts in even normal human beings. It's susceptible to issues ranging from the subject's hydration to proper sample transport (improper refrigeration causes RBCs to swell, disproportionately increasing their volume).

He also notes the wildly varying values between testers, consistent with Phonak seeing different values than the UCI:

One of the first things that Ashenden noted in examining results was the variability between official UCI figures and ACE figures, even for values taken just days apart. The UCI numbers were vastly more uniform. "Almost like a different person," said Ashenden of some of the ACE results.


What does Ashendon look at instead of Hct?

"The first thing I look at in interpreting results is reticulocyte count and OFF-score, then hemoglobin," explained Ashenden. "I also look at anything about a sample that is strange and might explain off values due to transport and testing issues - mean cell volume and hematocrit chiefly.""

http://trustbut.blogspot.com/2008/08/blood-values-landis-garmin-and-that-485.html

"Increases in hematocrit after rest days

Recently I had the misfortune of having some medical issues, and had my blood drawn twice in one week. A complete blood count was performed in both cases. On Monday, my crit was 47, and on Thursday it was 43. The doctor was neither surprised nor concerned. There was no reason to suspect any actually loss of blood or red blood cells. My assumption is that this difference is attributed to hydration, because on Sunday I hadn't been drinking enough, maybe only 20 ounces or so. The rest of the week I spent in my maximum hydration mode that I use for illness, probably 80-100 ounces of fluid every day. There were no other issues like diarrhea that would have had a larger impact on my fluid levels.

Whether you like my hydration assumption or not, the fact that crit can change that much in four days without my doctor thinking it's significant says volumes about what these numbers mean."

http://www.tomsarazac.com/tom/opinions/lancesblood.html

So, should this really be the smoking gun it is being presented as?


It then raises other questions: Where is the blood stored? How was it transported? Who was the doctor that administered it? (Lim is not a physician as has been pointed out.) Why did Phonak shut down after this incident? Why is it re-entering now as BMC under the same management?

 

[Race Radio]

random troll babble

You are welcome to believe that Lim is stupid enough to dismiss the sharp change blood values as dehydration. But even a rookie would be hard pressed to believe that Landis was that dehydrated The morning after the rest day

As Garmin has pointed out with their internal testing most hospital machines have wide variances, this is why they do not use them anymore and your personal experience is irrelevant. There are also no transport and storage issues as the UCI tests are carried out on site, within minutes of taking a sample

Now that you appear to be answering direct questions perhaps you can finally give me the answer to the Ulrich question you have been avoiding.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=230663&postcount=91

You are welcome to answer in the appropriate thread.

 

[Anonymous]

You are welcome to believe that Lim is stupid enough to dismiss the sharp change blood values as dehydration. But even a rookie would be hard pressed to believe that Landis was that dehydrated The morning after the rest day

As Garmin has pointed out with their internal testing most hospital machines have wide variances, this is why they do not use them anymore and your personal experience is irrelevant. There are also no transport and storage issues as the UCI tests are carried out on site, within minutes of taking a sample

Now that you appear to be answering direct questions perhaps you can finally give me the answer to the Ulrich question you have been avoiding.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=230663&postcount=91

You are welcome to answer in the appropriate thread.

As soon as you hit his target, he puts up another target further down the road.

I guess all we can surmise is that gree0232 believes that Lim is completely incompetent. I believe he is quite smart, and would have been well aware of what was going on.

 

[gree0232]

You are welcome to believe that Lim is stupid enough to dismiss the sharp change blood values as dehydration. But even a rookie would be hard pressed to believe that Landis was that dehydrated The morning after the rest day

As Garmin has pointed out with their internal testing most hospital machines have wide variances, this is why they do not use them anymore and your personal experience is irrelevant. There are also no transport and storage issues as the UCI tests are carried out on site, within minutes of taking a sample

Now that you appear to be answering direct questions perhaps you can finally give me the answer to the Ulrich question you have been avoiding.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=230663&postcount=91

You are welcome to answer in the appropriate thread.

You are welcome to note that the variance of the individual tests is not what is being debated. The issue is whether the changes in the accurately measured levels can swing over the course of a few days and by how much.

Again, if you have Floyd saying vehemently, and Floyd was doing this for all to hear, that he did not dope, would you look for other reasons that this level changed?

It should also be noted that this rise in and of itself is not conclusive proof of doping. If it were, we would be sanctioning riders based on rising hemocrits -- and we don't.

It also does not answer some simple questions like why Landis's samples never tested positive for EPO when we know that the substance remains in their for 24 hours - and that Floyd was tested within that time frame.

I realize you are anxious to convict everyone, but the simple assumption that doping is the explanation for everything is not always right. You present one side of the arguement, and are dismissive of the other side - but - I will remind you, that any adjudication forum must take in both sides to account.

Will Allen Lim probably go back and look at Floyd's numbers and think differently now that he has confessed to lying to him and everyone else for years? You bet.

Does that translate into Allen Lim being guilty of providing Landis dope along with the entire now BMC staff? Not quite.

Again, make a case, and if you make an air tight case I will pat you on the back myself. But these theories going forward will be subject to rebuttal. Getting it here should not come as a either a shock or a surprise.

 

[Race Radio]

Lots of words, little content

Landis' excuses were readily dismissed by the experts. You are welcome to believe the view of a computer engineer, and chief Landis apologist, but I will listen to the experts.

If you have read any of the recent interviews with Landis you will know why EPO was never found. It appears you tossed that in just to obfuscate, which seems to be your specialty.

When you choose to stop ignoring my question on Ulrich let us know.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

As soon as you hit his target, he puts up another target further down the road.

I guess all we can surmise is that gree0232 believes that Lim is completely incompetent. I believe he is quite smart, and would have been well aware of what was going on.

Don't dismiss the other possibility that TRS are paying Lim $500,000 p/a just to make Rice Cakes.


@Gree, I realise you are struggling in your arguements but please do not blatantly try and misquote my or anyone else position:

You said, "the majority of the cases deal with past addmissions," and that is clearly not the case.

When I had clearly stated:

You should read it as the vast majority named were not caught by "the system" - most confessed after their careers ended or were caught by Police action.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

The Landis numbers are from the UCI and they have said the variance of their testing methods is only .3%.

As I read the table, they appear to be the results of a blood test. Not the info from a pre-race screen.

In between attempting to convince gree that Lim is on the "take" (good luck), take a look at an industry document that speaks about these issues.

http://www.masimo.com/pdf/SpHb/LAB5447A.pdf

 

[gree0232]

Landis' excuses were readily dismissed by the experts. You are welcome to believe the view of a computer engineer, and chief Landis apologist, but I will listen to the experts.

If you have read any of the recent interviews with Landis you will know why EPO was never found. It appears you tossed that in just to obfuscate, which seems to be your specialty.

When you choose to stop ignoring my question on Ulrich let us know.

1. I am not going to go hunting all over the forum to satisfy your curiosity about Ullrich. If you have arelevant question to ask, ask it.

2. What Landis said is that EPO in microdoses was being mixed with blood. So it the blood is causing the rise in hemo, why is the EPO not showing up when it is showing up in other cyclists?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/sports/cycling/26micro.html

"Micro-dosing reduces the time EPO remains in the system to about 48 hours," said Lasne. "The evolution of new EPO products is another reason to improve testing methods", Lasne explained.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2007/drugtesting_california07

Many of Floyd's teste we taken within that apparent 48 hour window.

3. The issue is not about whether or not Floyd cheated. He cheated.

The issue is about whether or not Allen Lim (and apparently Jessie the Body) should have known that Floyd was cheating.

4. Floyd was caught using synthetic steroids, not for using EPO. He has not admitted to using steroids, he as now admitted to blood doping and EPO use.

It boils down to how credible Landis is. Quite frankly, anyone who thought that Landis was being completely truthful earlier has been badly burned now. Anyone who thinks that Floyd, after months of apparent black mail attempts, after being burned by the sport, is suddenly telling the whole and envarished truth may want to qualify that unblemished, but very sudden, honesty.

Add to this that JO and now the BMC management was aware of these rises as well (and testing internally for it) and not flustered by this when it happened. In fact, their withdrawal from the sport given this seems to suggest that Floyd may very well have been confronted by this and denied it. When he suddenly pops positive ..... away goes Phonak.

Getting burned by a person does not make you a doper or a practioner of doping.

And of course I have to ask, why the apparent fasination and fixation of Allen Lim? There were a lot of other people around Floyd, and I think it is worth pointing out that every one of them at this point is saying that Floyd is lying.

 

[Race Radio]

As I read the table, they appear to be the results of a blood test. Not the info from a pre-race screen.

In between attempting to convince gree that Lim is on the "take" (good luck), take a look at an industry document that speaks about these issues.

http://www.masimo.com/pdf/SpHb/LAB5447A.pdf

Yes, I have seen this before.

Landis numbers are from morning blood tests performed while the athlete is sitting by the UCI. The process is clear. If Landis's off season baseline is 41% he would expect to be at @36 in the 3rd week of a GT, not 48. This extreme change cannot be explained easily by machine variance.

Gree wants us to believe Lim is a idiot. So far he has not shown anything that would indicate this is the case

 

[Colm.Murphy]

1. I am not going to go hunting all over the forum to satisfy your curiosity about Ullrich. If you have arelevant question to ask, ask it.

2. What Landis said is that EPO in microdoses was being mixed with blood. So it the blood is causing the rise in hemo, why is the EPO not showing up when it is showing up in other cyclists?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/sports/cycling/26micro.html

"Micro-dosing reduces the time EPO remains in the system to about 48 hours," said Lasne. "The evolution of new EPO products is another reason to improve testing methods", Lasne explained.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2007/drugtesting_california07

Many of Floyd's teste we taken within that apparent 48 hour window.

3. The issue is not about whether or not Floyd cheated. He cheated.

The issue is about whether or not Allen Lim (and apparently Jessie the Body) should have known that Floyd was cheating.

4. Floyd was caught using synthetic steroids, not for using EPO. He has not admitted to using steroids, he as now admitted to blood doping and EPO use.

It boils down to how credible Landis is. Quite frankly, anyone who thought that Landis was being completely truthful earlier has been badly burned now. Anyone who thinks that Floyd, after months of apparent black mail attempts, after being burned by the sport, is suddenly telling the whole and envarished truth may want to qualify that unblemished, but very sudden, honesty.

Add to this that JO and now the BMC management was aware of these rises as well (and testing internally for it) and not flustered by this when it happened. In fact, their withdrawal from the sport given this seems to suggest that Floyd may very well have been confronted by this and denied it. When he suddenly pops positive ..... away goes Phonak.

Getting burned by a person does not make you a doper or a practioner of doping.

And of course I have to ask, why the apparent fasination and fixation of Allen Lim? There were a lot of other people around Floyd, and I think it is worth pointing out that every one of them at this point is saying that Floyd is lying.

Gree, he was in on it. His claims about how much he was paid is silly. His claim about his surprise and resentment when the positive broke is fake. He was hired at Garmin and RS to maximize EVERYTHING. This is inclusive of all methods.

Gree, it is just so, and that there are certain people who lurk on these forums who actually do know, or are involved with the underbelly of professional cycling. I can only say you are entitled to your opinion and that when the Landis investigation unfolds you will be very hard pressed to admit you were wrong.

If you are simply saying "show me the proof", then please take a seat with the other "never tested positive" folks. Your class will start when the Feds bring the case forward.

 

[Race Radio]

lots of words, little info

Armstrong's own doping doctor, Dr. Ferrari, says the window for detection of Microdosing is 12 hours, some others say as little as 7
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/sports/cycling/26micro.html

I am beginning to think you do not even read any of what others post here.
Here is the Ulrich question that you have been avoiding. Fell free to answer it in the appropriate thread.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=230663&postcount=91

 

[gree0232]

Yes, I have seen this before.

Landis numbers are from morning blood tests performed while the athlete is sitting by the UCI. The process is clear. If Landis's off season baseline is 41% he would expect to be at @36 in the 3rd week of a GT, not 48. This extreme change cannot be explained easily by machine variance.

Gree wants us to believe Lim is a idiot. So far he has not shown anything that would indicate this is the case

Well, here is why physicians are not worried about a rising hematocrit.

"One of the most common causes of a high hematocrit count is simple dehydration. If you haven’t drunk enough fluids prior to getting your blood checked, your blood may be too concentrated which causes the hematocrit level to be elevated. This is usually not a serious condition and the hematocrit returns to normal once fluids are consumed."

http://healthmad.com/conditions-and-diseases/what-causes-a-high-hematocrit/#ixzz0poYqqrfo


Here is some EPO sience for you.

"In order to gain the physiological effects of rhEPO, athletes need to continue its use until a late stage of preparation for an event. A test for increased erythropoiesis in the two to six weeks before competition would have a high likelihood of detecting rhEPO abuse (Parisotto and Gore 569). Detection of rhEPO in urine should be performed to confirm results of blood sampling for indirect markers. However, it should not be made a requirement because urine testing suffers from many restraints. Blood sampling should be done in the morning before exercise and daily intake of fluids, as these factors can alter hematocrit levels in the body."

http://www.sportsmed.info/articles/epo.html

Please take a look at this study, which indicates that Hemo levels can were measured over a 24 hour period and in some cases fluctuated by as much as 5%. This would be why we do not sanction athletes based solely on hemo levels.

http://www.iutasport.com/files/articles/How Valid is the.pdf

Should Dr. Lim have been swayed just by the hemo levels? Not based on that.

 

[gree0232]

Armstrong's own doping doctor, Dr. Ferrari, says the window for detection of Microdosing is 12 hours, some others say as little as 7
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/sports/cycling/26micro.html

I am beginning to think you do not even read any of what others post here.
Here is the Ulrich question that you have been avoiding. Fell free to answer it in the appropriate thread.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=230663&postcount=91

And some of the tests are within that 12 hour window aren't they?

I am beginning to think that you are not reading what others are posting here.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Well, here is why physicians are not worried about a rising hematocrit.

"One of the most common causes of a high hematocrit count is simple dehydration. If you haven’t drunk enough fluids prior to getting your blood checked, your blood may be too concentrated which causes the hematocrit level to be elevated. This is usually not a serious condition and the hematocrit returns to normal once fluids are consumed."

http://healthmad.com/conditions-and-diseases/what-causes-a-high-hematocrit/#ixzz0poYqqrfo


Here is some EPO sience for you.

"In order to gain the physiological effects of rhEPO, athletes need to continue its use until a late stage of preparation for an event. A test for increased erythropoiesis in the two to six weeks before competition would have a high likelihood of detecting rhEPO abuse (Parisotto and Gore 569). Detection of rhEPO in urine should be performed to confirm results of blood sampling for indirect markers. However, it should not be made a requirement because urine testing suffers from many restraints. Blood sampling should be done in the morning before exercise and daily intake of fluids, as these factors can alter hematocrit levels in the body."

http://www.sportsmed.info/articles/epo.html

Please take a look at this study, which indicates that Hemo levels can were measured over a 24 hour period and in some cases fluctuated by as much as 5%. This would be why we do not sanction athletes based solely on hemo levels.

http://www.iutasport.com/files/articles/How Valid is the.pdf

Should Dr. Lim have been swayed just by the hemo levels? Not based on that.

Gree, please explain to us the detection window for EPO taken intravenously. Can you?

Can't find a citation? no clever web link?

It is because it is not intended for that administration. EPO is intended to be taken subcutaneously, and that is what all the studies, tests, WADA science is based on. This is why Landis, and the whole lot of them, were not caught using EPO, despite chronic, prolonged usage.

This is why the general response from Ashenden and Catlin was that Landis had given them the missing information. They did not even know. How would you?

The thing is, at this point you don't know what you don't know. You think this info is findable by clever search engine magic? No. Even the experts did not know this till a couple of weeks ago.

The faster you realize you simply do not possess the knowledge of what and why things happen the faster you can open your mind and learn. Other people do posses this knowledge.

 

[Cordon Bleu]

I have been lurking on this thread for some time and decided to jump into the fray.

This has probably been said a number of times but I just had to chime in.

I find Lim's denials laughable. This is a bona fide expert in his field who had very very intimate knowledge of Floyd's training data, physiology, blood values, and hematocrit count. Lim probably knew Floyd's body better than Floyd himself. In addition, just think about the amount of time Lim must have spent with Floyd and Floyd's inner circle. We now know Floyd was doped to the gills in the 2006 TdF and long before that. Do we have direct evidence that Lim was doping Floyd. No. But since we are all speculating anyway, I think it's fair to say that it is highly probably that Lim knew and was involved. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The simplest explanation is that Lim knew, approved, and assisted. That's my .02. Flame on.

 

[Cordon Bleu]

Or maybe the simple mennonite boy simply learned how to do all of this stuff himself by reading WebMD...

 

[eleven]

I have been lurking on this thread for some time and decided to jump into the fray.

This has probably been said a number of times but I just had to chime in.

I find Lim's denials laughable. This is a bona fide expert in his field who had very very intimate knowledge of Floyd's training data, physiology, blood values, and hematocrit count. Lim probably knew Floyd's body better than Floyd himself. In addition, just think about the amount of time Lim must have spent with Floyd and Floyd's inner circle. We now know Floyd was doped to the gills in the 2006 TdF and long before that. Do we have direct evidence that Lim was doping Floyd. No. But since we are all speculating anyway, I think it's fair to say that it is highly probably that Lim knew and was involved. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The simplest explanation is that Lim knew, approved, and assisted. That's my .02. Flame on.

I find the simplest explanation to be that Lim knew about Floyd.

However, as devil's advocate: could it also be that Lim statred working with him when he was already doping, and therefore his "Base" levels were already very high-Meaning that Lim never saw dramatic increases that might indicate doping?

 

[johndouglas]

Or maybe he just thought floyd was special. I listed to Chris Carmichael on competitors radio podcast talking about amazing 25watt jumps in power from Lance after he'd been on a team training camp in the canary islands. Perhaps Lim just chalked it down to adaptation on his amazing training programs.

 

[blackcat]

I find the simplest explanation to be that Lim knew about Floyd.

However, as devil's advocate: could it also be that Lim statred working with him when he was already doping, and therefore his "Base" levels were already very high-Meaning that Lim never saw dramatic increases that might indicate doping?

that is not how it works nor feasible, when you are tapping 2.5 litres to reinject. cant hide dat.

 

[Cordon Bleu]

that is not how it works nor feasible, when you are tapping 2.5 litres to reinject. cant hide dat.

Agreed. I simply cannot believe that someone of Lim's expertise could work so closely with an athlete and not know or be involved. It's not like Lim was Floyd's "Carmichael Training System's" coach via email.

 

[Race Radio]

"One of the most common causes of a high hematocrit count is simple dehydration. If you haven’t drunk enough fluids prior to getting your blood checked, your blood may be too concentrated which causes the hematocrit level to be elevated.

The test was taken in the morning after the rest day, 40 hours after the finish of the last stage. Do you honestly think this guy is going to let Floyd get so dehydrated as to cause a 20% increase in Hct?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpArGxgGfa4

Here is some EPO sience for you.

You need to catch up, we are talking about transfusions, not EPO

Please take a look at this study, which indicates that Hemo levels can were measured over a 24 hour period and in some cases fluctuated by as much as 5%.

You may want to actually read the link you post. Nothing in there explains why Floyd would show a 10% increase when he should be showing a 12% decrease. I know math is not your strong point but this is far more then a 5% swing.

 

[gree0232]

Gree, he was in on it. His claims about how much he was paid is silly. His claim about his surprise and resentment when the positive broke is fake. He was hired at Garmin and RS to maximize EVERYTHING. This is inclusive of all methods.

Gree, it is just so, and that there are certain people who lurk on these forums who actually do know, or are involved with the underbelly of professional cycling. I can only say you are entitled to your opinion and that when the Landis investigation unfolds you will be very hard pressed to admit you were wrong.

If you are simply saying "show me the proof", then please take a seat with the other "never tested positive" folks. Your class will start when the Feds bring the case forward.

OK, so you say he was in on it. Allen Lim says he was not.

Everyone Floyd has accussed say he is lying.

The people involved in the underbelly? Why are they not coming forward?

LIke I have said, I don;t really care whether Lim did or didn't. What I am sick and tired of is the rumor and innuendo (anonymous underbelly be dambed). I have already had to admit I was wrong about Floyd, my life will still go on.

But when I see Allen Lim attacked ....

When I see his work with Garmin attacked and by implication the entire Garmin team is doped ....

When I see every rider who rode with Floyd still riding accussed by Floyd ....

When I see people pointing to hematocrit and using it as proof positive of doping (which it is not, though it does raise suspicions) ....

So where does it stop? Contador rode with JB and LA? Should we expand it to include him? Levi rode with Gerolstiener and Rabobank, so those guys are doping too? Tom Boonen once rode with USPS, so the entire Quick Step team is doping now?

When do we ask teh accussers the tough questions? Like, how does a guy fresh out of graduate school get access to doping products and picked up by one of the few American riders at that level -- just to provide dope? Why if LA stores blood bags in his refrigerator have none ever been found in his refrigerator? Why is Floyd popping EPO and testing positive for steroids?

In an environment where everything is questioned, it is easy to say what should and should not be known. It may be as simple as the fact that Allen Lim trusted Floyd Landis - a decision I am sure he regrets for one reason or another.

 

[Race Radio]

And some of the tests are within that 12 hour window aren't they?

No. The 2006 Landis tests were all performed in the morning in order to eliminate the dehydration issue. The AFLD introduced post stage blood analysis two years later in order to catch riders using plasma expanders.

This means a rider would have a 23 hour window between the 7:00 am blood tests.

 

[gree0232]

The test was taken in the morning after the rest day, 40 hours after the finish of the last stage. Do you honestly think this guy is going to let Floyd get so dehydrated as to cause a 20% increase in Hct?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpArGxgGfa4

Here is some EPO sience for you.

You need to catch up, we are talking about transfusions, not EPO



You may want to actually read the link you post. Nothing in there explains why Floyd would show a 10% increase when he should be showing a 12% decrease. I know math is not your strong point but this is far more then a 5% swing.

That is interesting, because the link you showed me showed a 4% increase. I pulled it out for you, please go back and check again.

Now, based on the study that shows a +/- 5% swing in hematocrit within a 24 hour period, that 4% raise is not that dramatic. The same study showed that things that can make it go up, can also make it go down and the reverse.

And remember, you are claiming he is blood doping with EPO, that is what Floyd said right? But now we are not talking about EPO anymore?

Nothing in anything you have posted equates changes in hematocrit to a doping positive. I agree that it is suspicious, but that alone is not 'proof' of doping. When things as simple as hydration levels, stress levels, and even the angle of your body can influence a measure, it is fairly inaccurate to point to those changes and claim they are proof positive. Again, the machines available can very accurately measure these changes.

If you disagree, please show me a cyclist who has been sidelined only because of changes in his or her hematocrite level that has stayed below 50.