Are you a Vegetarian?

[krebs303]

vegans taste like tofu

 

[Hangdog98]

Has it been said already in this thread that Adolf Hitler was a vegatarian and he was quite healthy. I'm not so sure if he rode a bicycle but he sure did have a pretty girlfriend and a terrific job.

Did I just invoke Godwin's law with a reductio ad hitlerum jibe? oops

 

[Archibald]

Not sure about a lack of respect. It all comes down to conciousness. For example a pig is only concerned about food and shelter, if these requirements are met then that's about all the animal wants and life is good he has not developed 'conciousness'.Unlike you and I we are 'concious'.For instance,we have plans for our life and plans for tomorrow (the pig does not). So if I sneak up behind a well fed and housed happy pig and bang him on the head, then as far as the pig is concerned life was great, he never knew his fate. So IMO there would be no moral issue and no issue of respect for the animal.

are you seriously suggesting that because of what makes a certain animal contented, that it is unconcious??
are you therefore suggesting small human children with their simplistic view on life, and who are usually happy to be fed, sheltered and have m&m's that they are somehow void of being concious??

bang that pig on the head and he's likely to have a very similar reaction to what you would if someone does the same to you - pain and confusion - that is, of course, if that blow didn't render it unconcious or kill it/you... there will be no consideration of whether life was good or not.
You could be mugged, raped and killed, but does that make it morally right for the perpetrator simply because you "never knew your fate"? I'd like to see that as a defense for murderers and rapists in court...
your argument is seriously flawed.

don't get me wrong here, as I have no issue with the laws of nature and the food chain, but we as a species have removed ourselves from that food chain in the mistaken belief that we are better than every other creature on the planet. We as a species show no respect for the world in which we live.
Eat meat by all means, but the way in which we obtain it is downright disrespectful to the creatures we take it from. There just has to be a better way of doing it than this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD7yK...x=3&feature=BF

 

[Clearly Unstable]

I agree with the Archmister. Most urban [and many rural] based people are so far removed for nature/life/death it's ludicrous. Because of that situation they have no ideawhat'ssoever is involved in their food arriving at the meat counter in it's hygienic little plastic coffin. Nor do many [well meaning] misguided people know much about animals. Pigs are a really good example. As one of the most intelligent livestock animals their intelligence is thought to be approximately that of the 3-4 year old child.....far higher then the average voting age American in my experience.

Raising and/or hunting killing and eating animals isn't evil imo, but the manner in which it's done is and unfortunately ignored to a large extent.

That said polar bears don't drink Coke with seals at Christmas. They kill them and rip them apart while eating them.

Before people talk about how 'simple' an animal is they need to go live around it for a year [in a non-factory farm situation], then kill, process and it it.

 

[Archibald]

Who said I don't respect animals? I didn't get the memo that if you kill/eat and animal you don't respect it. I do weep for broccoli though

Cannibals taste just like chicken I bet.

What's in the animals I eat? Frequently a bullet or lead/iron pellets.

Is this going to turn into a "it's mean to eat meat" thread now? If so I'll need to get a burger to eat while I read the hand wringing.

I think you missed a few points.
I'm sure the Cannibal reference was regarding how you feel about eating human meat, not what cannibals taste like...

Same goes for your "what's in the animal" remark. I was referring to your comment that you were eating animal muscle tissue. Chances are, you won't be. Take your burger - most are made of what's known as MRM, which is effectively the remains of carcasses (after the main meat is removed) that is pulped. 100% beef? Sure, its from beef cattle, but it's no minced steak - noses, bones, tails, ears, etc... its all in there.
Same goes for your chicken nuggets - pulped carcasses once the breast meat, drumsticks and wings are removed and packaged.
Mmmm... tasty, no?

It's certainly not mean to eat meat, although the way we go about obtaining the packaged stuff has some serious issues... But you're seriously fooling yourself if you believe some of what's on the packaging is truly the actual muscle tissue you claim it is...

Me? not avoiding meat. The more meat I eat the healthier and lighter I get. Plants make me fart and bloat me. Hey, why can't I buy a can of "Tuna-safe Dolphin" anywhere?

The diet choice argument always degenerates into an entertaining morality issue over whether or not it's OK to kill and eat animals. Bears have no such discussions. Me, as a mammal, and an inhabitant of my natural habitat, I eat other living things, be they animals or plants. Choosing which living things you devour based on some moral construct is much like relying on religion to make your decisions. I prefer Darwin's natural order of things where the strong survive (by eating the weak I presume) and I prefer not to mess with it or I might cause Global Warming or a Tsunami.

the laws of nature or your 'natural order' is fine, yet we're not exactly part of that any more are we? Can you really claim to be in a "natural" habitat in concrete and steel buildings? Or living in any form of harmony with nature while polluting and contributing to destroying the planet?

the morality one is always interesting - how many folk have issues with dining on dog meat? It's just another form of animal meat, so should be fine. Same goes for cats or even dolphins. The funny part is, it is only the western world that has issues eating these three creatures.
Dolphins are readily available on the seafood shelves in Japan - ususally packaged as whale meat though. Search Youtube for Japanese Dolphin Hunt if you don't believe it.
Harvested properly, should it be an issue? It is definately the "proper harvesting" of any animal that is the main issue (I won't use "bone of contention") for those that take the moral ground for being vegitarian or vegan.
The rest just look at the heatlh aspect of such a lifestyle...

 

[krebs303]

Chicken Nuggets Are Made From This Pink Goop
mmmmmmm....... Nuggets!

This is mechanically separated chicken. Chickens are turned into this goop so we can ..............
There's more: because it's crawling with bacteria, it will be washed with ammonia, soaked in it, actually. Then, because it tastes gross, it will be reflavored artificially. Then, because it is weirdly pink, it will be dyed with artificial color.

 

[Clearly Unstable]

Archmister, You're making the all to common mistake of making assumptions. You have NO idea where I get my meat from now do you?

I don't eat chicken-Mc-crap. My beef is local grass fed/hormone free and the chicken/turkey is small farm free range. All is processed either on the farm or a couple miles away. And I certainly know WFT is going on to a large extent with the animals I kill myself.

Moral of post: Don't make assumptions. They can make you look foolish.

 

[Archibald]

Archmister, You're making the all to common mistake of making assumptions. You have NO idea where I get my meat from now do you?

I don't eat chicken-Mc-crap. My beef is local grass fed/hormone free and the chicken/turkey is small farm free range. All is processed either on the farm or a couple miles away. And I certainly know WFT is going on to a large extent with the animals I kill myself.

Moral of post: Don't make assumptions. They can make you look foolish.

dilligaf...
You mentioned you did some hunting, so I do have an idea, but that doesn't mean that everything in your fridge/freezer is from the woods...
that's not exactly a foolish assumption

 

[Clearly Unstable]

Yes, you're totally right as always and I'm clearly wrong. Again.

Happy now?

 

[Tapeworm]

Just to be clear, my reference to good ol' cannibalism was that someone who want to hunt and kill animals goes a long the lines of "don't infringe my rights and don't impose your morals on me."

Therefore does the same argument apply to those whom wish to hunt a different game? (some would say a nicer, more delicate game, bit chewy if over done and, especially on this forum, watch for the enlarged bile ducts).


Also, love the "if you don't eat meat then you're prey" reference. Pure gold. Damn, best be going to kill something to prove my manhood.

 

[Polyarmour]

I
the morality one is always interesting - how many folk have issues with dining on dog meat? It's just another form of animal meat, so should be fine. Same goes for cats or even dolphins. The funny part is, it is only the western world that has issues eating these three creatures.
Dolphins are readily available on the seafood shelves in Japan - ususally packaged as whale meat though. Search Youtube for Japanese Dolphin Hunt if you don't believe it.
Harvested properly, should it be an issue? It is definately the "proper harvesting" of any animal that is the main issue (I won't use "bone of contention") for those that take the moral ground for being vegitarian or vegan.
The rest just look at the heatlh aspect of such a lifestyle...

You touch on an interesting point. Eating meat is largely cultural. In the west we eat chicken, beef, lamb, pork and that's about it. 4 specially bred animals. If it's not one of those 4 most of us aren't interested, now why is that?

I was watching a show the other day "Paul Mertons goes to China" and they served him up some dog at a local restaurant. He made such a fuss about it. Got up and walked out. Meat is meat isn't it. If you're a meat eater, get on with it.

In Australia we are infested with kangaroos but we won't eat them. Rabbits and foxes are everywhere, they get poisoned. We've got problems with water buffalo, camels and crocodiles but apart from the odd novelty restaurant, they don't make it to the average family dining table.

 

[2beeDammed]

I eat Kangaroo at least once a week(Steak/Fillets). Very lean and great value. We feed mince Kangaroo to our 9 month old, again lean and organic by default and at 7.99 a kilo it's great value.

 

[Polyarmour]

I eat Kangaroo at least once a week(Steak/Fillets). Very lean and great value. We feed mince Kangaroo to our 9 month old, again lean and organic by default and at 7.99 a kilo it's great value.

My point is that is is not being consumed by the population at large. It is very much a niche product. Chicken, beef, lamb and pork would account for more than 90% of land animals consumed in this part of the world. That's my guess, I'm happy to be proved wrong. We have bred certain animals that are ok to kill and eat and anything else we get a bit squirmy about. Despite the supposed benefits of eating low fat roo meat there is a very effective lobby group that campaigns against it. Kangaroos fall into the cute furry creature category. Most people have trouble eating them.

 

[oldborn]

Good questions.

1. Why would I put up a photo of contador riding a cow with a 24 gauge in its rump when Ive riden with Contador? Well cos its funny for one and everyone appreciates a joke. Nobody is winning the TDF with out a good sense of humor. I pose with the pro's to gain ****y street cred so people might listen to me more when I say 'meat will clog your arteries, eat rice/pasta/bananas instead'.

2. Only 2 months till the ship? Well I know if I had water that I could fast for that long (world record is 367 days) and that I would risk death via injury or ecoli/listeria/stiga spore poisoning from eating the bovine. Besides, if there is a cow, there is edible plant foods for me too, so perhaps I would share the grass with the cow and say 'if you let me eat more grass then I will promise you a Contador signed photo of your friend with the 24 gauge in their rump..'

1. Why we should listen to you? I am not getting any point from your 1st answer, maybe my English sucks. Yes sense of humor is great.

2. Would you risk death from listeria or from starving? For me you are dead anyway.
How many days 367? Give me a break. So you are answer for hungry people not some Angelina Jolie, just drink water. Did that guy drink some vitamins and minerals or just plain water? There is no grass on f.... island, and cow is yours, so?

Would you rather die or eat that damn cow?

Stay well Aussie, i can not get your English yet.

 

[lostintime]

We are destined to die from the moment we are conceived. From the moment we are born, we are filled with messages of how we should would and could be. Messages of how to treat ourselves, how to treat others, what to do, or not do ..... and certainly what and how and what to eat. These messages are to be challenged, yet we are all to often paralyzed by the fear of changing the way things are or have been. Fear is resistance to change.

Who wants to change? .... some may ask. My life is great!

Is it really? How many times a day do you feel angry? How short is your fuse? How big is the bottle of pent up rage?

How many times a day do you put yourself down? How deep is the valley of depression?


Is food is meant to sustain us, or enlighten us? I tend to believe food is a by-product of our level of self awareness. As one becomes aware of what foods do what to our body, we can make lasting changes, but without it we are just just eating from an idea of what we could would or should be eating. There is the difference..... "I must change" as opposed to "maybe I should or could or would".

We're going to eat what we're going to eat. You can't make someone more conscious. Lamenting over another's food choice is based in ignorance of one's understanding of themselves. How many times a day do we all tell someone what they "should" be doing? Who are we to be so all knowing? Are we not showing our own ignorance? If we are so fortunate, we can begin to see this pattern for what it is. This is where real change begins, does it not?

 

[Elegant Degenerate]

This thread has well and truly disappeared up its own ****.

 

[lostintime]

What we do not understand, we all to often denigrate.

 

[lostintime]

This thread has well and truly disappeared up its own ****.

Maybe up yours, but not everyone else's.

 

[lostintime]

I've been trying out some of durainriders ideas. While I'm not eating 30 bananas or other fruit for all my food, I have switched to eating about 12-14 bananas broken up in two "lunch time" meals, one mid morning , and one after a ride. I use a blender to puree them with some water.

I'm surprised how well I feel. No more snoozy afternoons and I'm recovering faster and I feel better on the bike than I have in many years. this isn't much of a stretch so far though, I've always eaten a lot of fruit, or should I say I thought I ate a lot of it. This takes it to a new level. I think mostly I wasn't getting enough carbohydrates.... good carbohydrates. I grew up in the time people ate fruit on the bike. It's funny watching people throw down cash on gel goobly-gobs, protein watcha-ma-callit bars and shakes these days. WTF happened? People put their trust in man made goo over nature's finest. Real food is so much better.

While some may think his fruitarian way of eating is wacked ..... it works for him, so what's to argue or make fun of? He didn't just start eating that way overnight, and neither should anyone else, a step at a time.

 

[Archibald]

You touch on an interesting point. Eating meat is largely cultural. In the west we eat chicken, beef, lamb, pork and that's about it. 4 specially bred animals. If it's not one of those 4 most of us aren't interested, now why is that?

I was watching a show the other day "Paul Mertons goes to China" and they served him up some dog at a local restaurant. He made such a fuss about it. Got up and walked out. Meat is meat isn't it. If you're a meat eater, get on with it.

In Australia we are infested with kangaroos but we won't eat them. Rabbits and foxes are everywhere, they get poisoned. We've got problems with water buffalo, camels and crocodiles but apart from the odd novelty restaurant, they don't make it to the average family dining table.

it's a bit of economics and perception/arrogance/attitude...

how a dog is viewed compared to a cow. dog's are our friends, they're fun and loving, while a cow is "just a dumb cow". this seems to make the justification in most people's minds.

it's also easier to farm cows than dogs, and possibly cheaper. The above also justifies that we can treat them so poorly while depending on them for food and income.

According to the China Study, the consumption of animal based proteins is a major factor in cancer, obesity, heart disease and diabetes. All four have massive economies of their own. The economy of cancer is larger than the economy of major nations.
Imagine if it was trumped out there that by switching to wholefood plant based diets is a cure/prevention for the above four diseases. That the medical world stood up and said "here's the cure". AND the world took notice by actually altering the way we consume food. The meat and dairy industries would collapse and take down all those industries that ride on the back of them. All the research, medical equipment manufacturers, pharma groups would likely go belly-up or go close to folding. It would effect millions of people directly, and could well be bigger than the recent global financial crisis.
Those industries will do all in their power to stay alive, and those major players in the meat & dairy industries will do all they can to keep themselves as the "big 4".

as lostintime says, it's up to the individuals to make their [informed] choices

 

[2beeDammed]

I to have been thinking about this (80/10/10) for a while and a couple of points I personally found needing some thought are. First, to reduce meal time to simply a process of 'consuming fuel' is kind of sad. Meal time for us is a time when the family sits down together, we share food and talk about our day. I am married with three small children and to sit down as a family to share blended bananas with my three and six year old daughters just wouldn't work. Dare I say that the ability to eat this diet is for people that don't have a family to share meals with ? Sure if I was single I would give it a go, as I'm married unless I could convince my wife to come along with me I doubt weather I would be willing to do it. Basically I bet that those who do this type of eating have no kids at home, have a partner that shares the passion for this style of eating and don't go out much for dinner.
The whole process of eating as a family unit is very important for childhood development. I have read studies that suggest simple things like turning the TV off at meal time and eating as a family unit have impacts on levels of childhood obesity.

 

[veganrob]

I to have been thinking about this (80/10/10) for a while and a couple of points I personally found needing some thought are. First, to reduce meal time to simply a process of 'consuming fuel' is kind of sad. Meal time for us is a time when the family sits down together, we share food and talk about our day. I am married with three small children and to sit down as a family to share blended bananas with my three and six year old daughters just wouldn't work. Dare I say that the ability to eat this diet is for people that don't have a family to share meals with ? Sure if I was single I would give it a go, as I'm married unless I could convince my wife to come along with me I doubt weather I would be willing to do it. Basically I bet that those who do this type of eating have no kids at home, have a partner that shares the passion for this style of eating and don't go out much for dinner.
The whole process of eating as a family unit is very important for childhood development. I have read studies that suggest simple things like turning the TV off at meal time and eating as a family unit have impacts on levels of childhood obesity.

Understand your thinking about 811. I have not eaten animal products for 33 years and raised my children this way. 811 is different though. Dining has always been a focus for the family, and that is good. But we need to teach good nutrition also. Though i had always believed a person could be very healthy on 811, there were no good examples. Lot of bad ones though with high fat raw diets. They ultimately fail.
I am getting away from your predicament though. What you could do is start by reading Dr Grahams book. Follow the diet. If you need support, get it on 30 bad. When you see how great you feel then the emotional and cultural issues of eating will pass. You will start eating properly because you feel awesome this way and will not want the feeling and improved health and performance go away. But you have to set the example for your family and slowly introduce this to them.

 

[Hangdog98]

the laws of nature or your 'natural order' is fine, yet we're not exactly part of that any more are we? Can you really claim to be in a "natural" habitat in concrete and steel buildings? Or living in any form of harmony with nature while polluting and contributing to destroying the planet?

Here's the thing about natural habitat. It doesn't matter what buildings or transport arrangements we currently have, the point is that we have made them, evolved this way, come to this by natural means. This is how we roll in our natural habitat at this particular moment. We're not above or unconnected to the animals of this earth, we share the place and participate in the evolutionary process which, at this moment, we are attempting to control. There will be signs of our existence just as ants make mounds and beavers make dams, but it is still our natural habitat and this is how we evolved.

All animals eat living organisms to survive, only man has created some hierarchy of deservedness to rank which organisms become food and which become companions.

For the record, and having spent a lot of my youth on a farm, the only people who would believe that a farm animal has the intelligence of a 3 year old human, has either never had a child of their own and owned a pig. Farm animals are little more than plants with legs and like the gazelle to the lion, they are on the part of the circle of life where they're food and we eat 'em.

 

[Barracuda]

If it was a question of survival... you'd be on the menu.

Maybe with some fava beans.

Ahhhhh...... thats gold .... gold I say ..... maybe a nice ciante as well...ftftftftftftftftft

 

[lostintime]

I to have been thinking about this (80/10/10) for a while and a couple of points I personally found needing some thought are. First, to reduce meal time to simply a process of 'consuming fuel' is kind of sad. Meal time for us is a time when the family sits down together, we share food and talk about our day. I am married with three small children and to sit down as a family to share blended bananas with my three and six year old daughters just wouldn't work. Dare I say that the ability to eat this diet is for people that don't have a family to share meals with ? Sure if I was single I would give it a go, as I'm married unless I could convince my wife to come along with me I doubt weather I would be willing to do it. Basically I bet that those who do this type of eating have no kids at home, have a partner that shares the passion for this style of eating and don't go out much for dinner.
The whole process of eating as a family unit is very important for childhood development. I have read studies that suggest simple things like turning the TV off at meal time and eating as a family unit have impacts on levels of childhood obesity.

'Consuming fuel' may be one person's view, it doesn't have to be yours. This isn't fuel, it's life. Real food is life, I personally don't see how one can mistake that!


I must say this out of experience, and it's the big R word. Resistance. Resistance to change. We all resist what is meant to benefit us at times. There are infinite reasons we come up with not to change. If one is sincere in their desire to change, a way will be found.