Better GT rider in their primes: Evans vs Nibali

[Walkman]

Stages 1 and 4 are uphill sprints. The fact that he sprints for the line doesn't mean he's not a wheelsucker.

Yeah it does, if he is leading the pack, which he did. Wheelsucking means, by definition, that you are in someones slipstream. Gilbert was up front on stage one of course but he had quite the gap and Evans was closing in fast.

 

[Walkman]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Cadel didn't close any gap to Andy. He dropped back to the peloton and schleck dropped back later.

Uhm, did you watched the stage?

Cadel had a mechanical and was dropped. Back in the pack, BMC and Liquigas started chasing. Then, on the downhill before Alpe, Evans and Sandy Casar, among others, chased like crazy and caught up with Andy and Contador.

 

[Walkman]

Saying he demolished sami and contador is one way to paint Evans performance on galibier. Another is to say he put only a few seconds into an injured Ivan basso, damniano cunego, tommy voeckler.

Stop your BS. Basso had a crash 5 weeks out. So yes, he wasn't in top shape, but he didn't ride the Tour injured.

Voeckler climbed on a level never before seen (before and after) so don't try and diminish Evans performance on Galibier. He dropped them all (save Fränk) on pure power seeing as he had no help and rode into the wind.

Cunego also climbed really good that year. Probably the best he has ever done since he "quit" doing PED's. Sánchez was in still elite in 2011 and in really good form, so dropping him isn't nothing to diminish either.

That was a hell of a ride. Simple as that.

 

[Walkman]

Valverde is better than ever? 2014 is going to be his best season.

His Tour result this year is his best ever.

His results this Tour was due to lack of competition in my opinion. He might be doing good results in other races but I believe he was way better a couple of years ago, with regards to GT's.

 

[yespatterns]

It seems like this whole debate is null until both are done riding professionally. Who's to say Nibbbles has reached his peak already? In any event, the Evans fanboys are as rabid as the Andy ones. Entertaining thread.

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah it does, if he is leading the pack, which he did. Wheelsucking means, by definition, that you are in someones slipstream. Gilbert was up front on stage one of course but he had quite the gap and Evans was closing in fast.

You must have been really impressed with Gerrans' LBL win this year, great display of attractive, aggressive and attacking riding. Sprinting ability have nothing to do with wether you're a wheelsucker or not.
Why start a thread like this if you only want to hear people agree mindlessly with you

 

[Franklin]

It seems like this whole debate is null until both are done riding professionally. Who's to say Nibbbles has reached his peak already? In any event, the Evans fanboys are as rabid as the Andy ones. Entertaining thread.

I don't think I'm much of a fanboy, though I really liked his 2011 ride. Nibali is a much better rider.

I just think that saying Cadel wheelsucked to victory and was weaker than Andy is extremely debatable.

 

[Franklin]

Taking time on someone after they spent 2 hrs in a break while you sat jn a group is a sign of being stronger? .

Come now Hitch, read carefuly. Nowhere do I claim Cadel was stronger thn Andy, But I dispute Andy was stronger than Cadel. It was largely equal.

On being in the break for two hours: yeah that hurts, but Cadel got no support and had to close that one down himself. It's not as if Cadel was humming cosely in the wheel of a teammate or got any help from other riders.

So no, I won't say Cadel was stronger due to taking back two minutes, but I also dispute the easy notion that Andy was the stronger rider that day. Andy was in a break, but he certainly got more support.

 

[Franklin]

Why start a thread like this if you only want to hear people agree mindlessly with you

Though I agree winning a sprint is not excluding wheelsucking, the points about his aggressive racing stand. He did attack several times, with rather great succes. And predictable? He attacked in the descent which is still rather rare. Is it rocketscience? No, but boring/predictable? 2011 was anything but that.

And in stage 18 there's simply no denying that Cadel did not suck wheels. He sure would have like to do that, but there was nobody to help him

 

[Franklin]

Nibali hasn't won the triple crown. Not yet anyway.

Yeah, I knew someone would catch that one. The triple crown is Giro, TdF and WC (in one year?). So whats the three GT's? The Grand Slam Tour? The Trifecta?

Anyways, the point being Nibles managed all three GT's which is quite rare indeed.

 

[Netserk]

Yeah, I knew someone would catch that one. The triple crown is Giro, TdF and WC (in one year?). So whats the three GT's? The Grand Slam Tour? The Trifecta?

Anyways, the point being Nibles managed all three GT's which is quite rare indeed.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trifecta&defid=3512658

 

[The Hitch]

Uhm, did you watched the stage?

Cadel had a mechanical and was dropped. Back in the pack, BMC and Liquigas started chasing. Then, on the downhill before Alpe, Evans and Sandy Casar, among others, chased like crazy and caught up with Andy and Contador.

You mean long after contador and schleck realized their break wasn't going anywhere and after he had spent an hour resting in the peloton?

And it wasn't just Evans

 

[Walkman]

You mean long after contador and schleck realized their break wasn't going anywhere and after he had spent an hour resting in the peloton?

The stage profile looked like this:

Evans got a mechanical with 87 km to go, i.e. before the top of Col du Télégraphe. Then got back in the pack and BMC started chasing with Liquigas. And this is the thing. I don't know how much or even if you ride, but you don't rest while going uphill. There is literally no drafting and the wind resistance is significantly reduced. And going downhill as fast as you can, which the Evans group did, is no resting either.

And if you watched the stage, you would know, that Evans was leading the chase. Take a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XpAizXzkTDI#t=5682

Resting in the peloton my ***. How about you starting to watch the races you comment on?

 

[memyselfandI]

Evans still. Nibali is about to equal Evans right about now. Else than GT's Nibali has a long way to go against Evans without stripes and XC worldcups..

 

[Franklin]

I don't know how much or even if you ride, but you don't rest while going uphill. There is literally no drafting and the wind resistance is significantly reduced.

Err what are you blabbering about???

1. Resting is dependend on spent energy. If you go under treshold up the Galibier you sure are resting. If on the flats you go 100% clinging on the wheel of Cancellara you are not resting.
2. Drafting matters a LOT when climbing. Even at the lower speeds of 20kmh air resistance is significant even when there's no wind.
3. Air resistance not only matter at all speeds, in absolute time gains it's actually more significant at lower speeds as though the percentual gain is less, due to the extended time (you are going slower) the effect in time is bigger.

 

[TANK91]

How is this even a discussion. Nibali by a mile. Nibali actually wins stages is exciting and i rate Evans alot but he is not Nibali in "GT's".

 

[TANK91]

Valverde is better than ever? 2014 is going to be his best season.

His Tour result this year is his best ever. He has never been good at long gradual climbs for more than a week. More of an all-rounder than a Grand Tour rider. The only GT which is tailored to him is the Vuelta.

He is an upgraded version of Kwiatkowski, not a guy who can win the Tour.

Lol 2014 is not his best season ever atall. Only if he wins WC

 

[karlboss]

Imo one if the riders has proven he can ride on cobbles tremendously and the other one has not then the former is better. We can make assumoions that if some things or some other things had or hadn't gone his way then maybe Evans would have done as well on cobbles as Nibali but they are a) unproven and b) a stretch.

Nibali has to have the edge on cobbles. He actually showed it.

If I was being a argumentative I'd say "noone dropped Evans, who had no helpers, not even 3 time roubaix champion Cancellara. Boom dropped Nibali, despite Nibali having two helpers."
But in fact comparing the two's only cobbled performance, Nibali's was better, and I respect the view that proven trumps any non proven point of view. However in the untested world of hypotheticals, I'll still hold to career best form Nibali couldn't drop cuddles on the cobbles.

 

[Walkman]

Err what are you blabbering about???

1. Resting is dependend on spent energy. If you go under treshold up the Galibier you sure are resting. If on the flats you go 100% clinging on the wheel of Cancellara you are not resting.

Yeah, but they were chasing. Sure Evans might have been under his threshold but the peloton was going as fast as they could, the BMC and Liquigas domestique riders was maxed out seeing how fast they dropped off. 22 kilometers after Evans had a mechanical , he was leading the pack. And why the heck would he throw away the Tour by cruising around far below his threshold?

And I don't get your argument. Just because I am not riding or running at my threshold level doesn't mean I am resting. Being slightly under that level is not resting. That's an insane statement.

2. Drafting matters a LOT when climbing. Even at the lower speeds of 20kmh air resistance is significant even when there's no wind.

Ok, I may have exaggerated but seeing as wind resistance increase exponentially, there is a big difference between going 40-45 km/h or doing 20km/h uphill.

Either How, Evans was leading the chase 22 km after he dropped off from Andy and Contador.

. Air resistance not only matter at all speeds, in absolute time gains it's actually more significant at lower speeds as though the percentual gain is less, due to the extended time (you are going slower) the effect in time is bigger.

Never heard before, but if you say so I believe you.

 

[Franklin]

Never heard before, but if you say so I believe you.

I don't blame you. Most people don't know this as it's counterintuitive.

1. Higher speed means more air resistance.
2. Aerodynamics on higher speeds give larger saving in percents.

But!

3. Higher speeds mean less time on the road.

It's number three that is the issue. An example:

10km. Car #1: ten minutes
10km. Car #2: forty minutes

Car#1 gets 10% aerodyamic gains. Car#2 gets 3% gain

Time gain car #1: 10%=1 minute.
Time gain car #2: 3%= 1.2 minutes

Relatively car#1 made a much bigger jump. But in seconds car#2 gained most.

 

[auscyclefan94]

The poll is skewed because Nibali is in his prime and Evans currently isn't. I personally thought that Nibali would have been owned by Contador and Froome. I don't rate him as a good as a GC ride as Evans or some others as he has won many of his races due to competitors being injured or off form riders.

 

[cineteq]

The poll is skewed because Nibali is in his prime and Evans currently isn't. I personally thought that Nibali would have been owned by Contador and Froome. I don't rate him as a GC rider but has won many of his races due to injury for his main competitiors or off form riders.

I wonder who does take this poster seriously?

 

[Red Rick]

Nibali had no competition this Tour, maybe he shoudn't have been so good, so he would've had competition

 

[The Hitch]

Evans got a mechanical with 87 km to go, i.e. before the top of Col du Télégraphe. Then got back in the pack and BMC started chasing with Liquigas. And this is the thing. I don't know how much or even if you ride, but you don't rest while going uphill. There is literally no drafting and the wind resistance is significantly reduced. [/url]

OMG So much fail in this post, it needs to go into the hall of fame

Yeah sure you don't feel any drafting going at your leisure pace on your time off up climbs

But these are professional cyclists of the highest (tour de France) level, who train every single day of their lives and who's entire lives are devoted to going as fast as possible up climbs. Going up Galibier which is hardly Zoncolan when it comes to steepness. You bet your *** there is drafting.

That is why for example up Val Martelo, where there was way less slipstream than on Galibier here, people pointed out that Hesjedal's power output would have been lower than Quintana's despite them finishing essentially at the same time. You know why? Because he was drafting and slipsteam does exist on climbs.

Its why riders attack up mountains and look around to see if anyone is still behind them, rather than just tting it which is what everyone would do if your theory about slipstream not existing on climbs, was true.

Its why having teams of good climbers is important. If there was no slipstream someone like Szmyd a few years ago would have spent his whole career in the domestic scene rather than be a highly paid and valued domestique. His entire raison detre was to pace Basso up climbs. Why would he do that if there was no slipstream?

Why do you think UK Postal and Us Postal always had massive teams leading the leaders up climbs. For Placebo effect

 

[roundabout]

I don't blame you. Most people don't know this as it's counterintuitive.

1. Higher speed means more air resistance.
2. Aerodynamics on higher speeds give larger saving in percents.

But!

3. Higher speeds mean less time on the road.

It's number three that is the issue. An example:

10km. Car #1: ten minutes
10km. Car #2: forty minutes

Car#1 gets 10% aerodyamic gains. Car#2 gets 3% gain

Time gain car #1: 10%=1 minute.
Time gain car #2: 3%= 1.2 minutes

Relatively car#1 made a much bigger jump. But in seconds car#2 gained most.

no. just no.