BMC statement on Frei A EPO positive

[Cerberus]

So two years of doping and the only reason he gets tagged is because he forgot to drink a big glass of water before bed. Wow. If this doesn't make a mockery of the "never tested positive" line, I don't know what does.

Meh, Riis made a mockery of the "I have never been tested positive" around 15 years ago. Riis' mockery>Frei's mockery.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

You can drink a lot of water while making the AFLD guy wait outside while you "take a shower".

Armstrong probably ate the shower to take enough water in

 

[fatandfast]

Armstrong probably ate the shower to take enough water in

Stay in the shower until your boss tell you are clean enough.

 

[Kennf1]

Meh, Riis made a mockery of the "I have never been tested positive" around 15 years ago. Riis' mockery>Frei's mockery.

But, there wasn't an epo test back then.

 

[amp300]

It begs the questions - did Thomas take one for the team? If so did
he fall on his own sword or was he pushed?

Either way I am just happy to not have read another one of those, 'I have never taken a substance in my life, I will take a vow to clear my name no matter how long it takes......' bull**** stories. Nice to call it what it is (as fuzzy as that may be).

 

[santacruz]

Micro dosages, liters of water, completely accidental bust?? I'm now convinced that everyone in the sport is doped... what about the amateur US racers with money to burn, why not dope up?? sounds easy, and I don't think there are even drug tests at most US races.. maybe I should shoot up and rule the Open Cat 4 field! this sucks..

 

[bridgeman]

I am completely sick of all this ****, and have pretty much lost interest in anything other than putting in my own mileage on the road and enjoy building super fitness these days. For me, it is no longer worth disecting and going into the minutia of who is clean or doped, because we will never know for sure. F*#K this ****!

 

[131313]

Micro dosages, liters of water, completely accidental bust?? I'm now convinced that everyone in the sport is doped... what about the amateur US racers with money to burn, why not dope up?? sounds easy, and I don't think there are even drug tests at most US races.. maybe I should shoot up and rule the Open Cat 4 field! this sucks..

I'm of two completely different minds on this one. For the record I'll say that I know the guy, though we aren't buddies or anything I've raced against him a couple of times in his BMC days. He seems like a good guy. I'll be honest though, I always thought 'man, this guy must have been a hell of a mountain biker to get that contract with Astanta', because he never really seemed that strong? Then, I assumed he got a ride on BMC just because he was Swiss and to appease the title sponsor. I can name 10 amateurs stronger than him. Sorry to talk sh!t about him, but that's a fact.

I know I'm stronger than he is, and I know I'm clean. So, I can beat a guy doping!

The other side of that equation is 'what the hell, pack fodder is doping? really??'. So I don't know what to think. I'm glad I have other things to fall back on, I'll say that much.

 

[curium]

Can you buy EPO easily and legally?

For me that would be the key determinant in how many amateurs are doped.

 

[philsinclair]

" Frei claimed that if he had drank enough water after the injection, the urine test would not have shown the EPO. However, he did not drink the required litre of water even when the controller arrived at six o'clock the next morning."

Sorry guys, that is a crock of ****. He is trying to hide the masking agent that has been chemically manufactured. EPO has a chemical footprint. It is black or white: 'A' sample is all that is needed. He ****ed up. Leaded petrol is leaded. Water would not have changed it. If he would be really honest he would give the full story about what he also took, and then some of his ex colleagues would have had a chance in the team. Look at who BMC let go last year ;-)

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Can you buy EPO easily and legally?

For me that would be the key determinant in how many amateurs are doped.

Not legal but there was an estimate of the amount of EPO produced that is used for legitimate medical purposes. IIRC something like only 30% of the total. Someone will have the link though....

 

[Colm.Murphy]

" Frei claimed that if he had drank enough water after the injection, the urine test would not have shown the EPO. However, he did not drink the required litre of water even when the controller arrived at six o'clock the next morning."

Sorry guys, that is a crock of ****. He is trying to hide the masking agent that has been chemically manufactured. EPO has a chemical footprint. It is black or white: 'A' sample is all that is needed. He ****ed up. Leaded petrol is leaded. Water would not have changed it. If he would be really honest he would give the full story about what he also took, and then some of his ex colleagues would have had a chance in the team. Look at who BMC let go last year ;-)

Uh, no...

To the extent that water would have prevented his positive, no.

But to your point the EPO test is a "black or white" result, also, no.

It is widely documented and known to be an interpretive direct test. Discerning endogenous and exogenous EPO is tricky and has many factors. Here is a good write-up to get you started: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/105/2/395

 

[santacruz]

EPO has a chemical footprint. It is black or white

everything I've read about EPO detection has said the opposite, it looks kind of tricky and very open to interpretation to determine if someone has been using EPO, since I think it looks a lot like something natural in the body. I think this is the problem, the detection is not sophisticated enough, and that's why people are still using it, because of new techniques to get away with using it... Maybe he was full of crap about that liter of water, I want to hear more news about this masking agent, which sounded expensive and complicated according to a CN article a couple weeks ago..

 

[luckyboy]

Uh, no...

To the extent that water would have prevented his positive, no.

But to your point the EPO test is a "black or white" result, also, no.

It is widely documented and known to be an interpretive direct test. Discerning endogenous and exogenous EPO is tricky and has many factors. Here is a good write-up to get you started: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/105/2/395

Also, there is a testing threshold - you're only positive if you have over a certain amount in your system.

 

[Kender]

yep, and just how much water did Floyd drink during his "epic" ride at the TdF. Shoulda drank it the night before Floyd...

FLandis didn't test positive to EPO so water wouldn't have helped

 

[Escarabajo]

Can you buy EPO easily and legally?

For me that would be the key determinant in how many amateurs are doped.

Joe Papp can tell you about that (Sorry Joe). Legally? How. That was meant to be for specific purposes like Cancer patients. I don't how can somebody get a TUE for EPO (???).

It looks like it is very easy to buy in the internet. I heard somebody said that Leogrande got his EPO very cheap. Chinese are willing to lower the price on the EPO for their profit.

 

[BroDeal]

everything I've read about EPO detection has said the opposite, it looks kind of tricky and very open to interpretation to determine if someone has been using EPO, since I think it looks a lot like something natural in the body. I think this is the problem, the detection is not sophisticated enough, and that's why people are still using it, because of new techniques to get away with using it... Maybe he was full of crap about that liter of water, I want to hear more news about this masking agent, which sounded expensive and complicated according to a CN article a couple weeks ago..

It seems to me that water would be a critical component of microdosing with a substance that is detected in urine. Using the half life of the substance and the length of the detection window for a regular dose, you would determine the maximum fraction of a regular dose that should fall below the detection threshold overnight. Ideally you would drink a lot of water and get up to urinate before the earliest time that the testers might come. Drinking a large volume of water would dilute the metabolites of the substance in the urine and ensure that you would need to urinate before any possible testing. Any urine remaining in the bladder would contain diluted metabolites. If the testers show up then you can say you are having a hard time taking a whiz, use some time to drink water, and the only thing that would end up in your urine would be whatever part of the substance that was eliminated in that short time frame between the early morning whiz and the testing whiz.

What I got out of the CN article was that the kit contained several different kinds of EPO, each of which would be microdosed. The overall effect would be that of a regular dose of a single type of EPO.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

It seems to me that water would be a critical component of microdosing with a substance that is detected in urine. Using the half life of the substance and the length of the detection window for a regular dose, you would determine the maximum fraction of a regular dose that should fall below the detection threshold overnight. Ideally you would drink a lot of water and get up to urinate before the earliest time that the testers might come. Drinking a large volume of water would dilute the metabolites of the substance in the urine and ensure that you would need to urinate before any possible testing. Any urine remaining in the bladder would contain diluted metabolites. If the testers show up then you can say you are having a hard time taking a whiz, use some time to drink water, and the only thing that would end up in your urine would be whatever part of the substance that was eliminated in that short time frame between the early morning whiz and the testing whiz.

What I got out of the CN article was that the kit contained several different kinds of EPO, each of which would be microdosed. The overall effect would be that of a regular dose of a single type of EPO.

They correct for SG, specific gravity, it takes into account highly diluted, or concentrated, urine.

This is a myth.

 

[BroDeal]

They correct for SG, specific gravity, it takes into account highly diluted, or concentrated, urine.

This is a myth.

They cannot correct for metabolites that were excreted during the night being p!ssed out before the testers get there. Whatever gets excreted after that would be below the positive threshold.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Surely it is not that easy to just drink water to cover up epo use. maybe it explains why LA had a shower when the dope testers come around. He drunk a litre of water from the shower so it covered up the dope.

 

[craig1985]

Thomas Frei looks pretty big for a bike rider.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Thomas Frei looks pretty big for a bike rider.

178 cm, 70kg

Susan

 

[craig1985]

178 cm, 70kg

Susan

It's his photo that did it (confused) for me. I'm 10cm taller and roughly 8kg heavier.

 

[GreggGermer]

The one questions I want to know (which to the best of my knowledge hasn't been asked) is how many times was Frei tested over the time period he has admitted to EPO use (since May 2008) ... additionally, since he was part of Astana (which has an internal testing program) and BMC (which also has an internal testing program) testing, did either of these teams get a sense that there was ill going on with it's rider.

If Susuan, or any other media have the chance to interview Frei, could they ask these questions.

 

[RTMcFadden]

They correct for SG, specific gravity, it takes into account highly diluted, or concentrated, urine.

This is a myth.

Specific Gravity doesn't really factor into it, provided they use the whole sample. The first step of the analytical process is to concentrate the sample by filtering, which removes the water. From my experience, SG is used as an integrity check during sample collection. Once had a guy on parole, with mandated drug testing, provide a sample that failed SG. First bad sign. Second bad sign was that it wouldn't freeze. The sample turned out to be Pine-Sol.

I think BroDeal is on to something here. By capturing less that the total void volume from the time of injection, or by using an aliquot of the sample collected, you reduce the overall amount of drug available for detection. So even with a concentration step, you limit your detectability. In addition, from the information I've read, the clearance of rEPO by the kidneys is not well understood, so there may be an issue there.