Cancellara

[BikeCentric]

Yes. Unless they are not all full, or not all as full as each other. I doubt that's what people accusing Cancellara on the strength of his last two performances mean to suggest however.

Clearly doping does play a role but it's certainly only one part of the equation in a winning formula. (pun intended).

 

[Escarabajo]

What is there to prove? New performance enhancing methods will always be ahead of test methodology, by definition. They can't test for something they don't know about yet.

So the real trick is to keep the methods "under wraps" for as long as possible.

I agree with you.

I was replying to the person that wrote that everybody is doping so there is level playing field. I don't agree with this statement because all the medical programs are not the same and are dependant on how much money the rider or the team has. Otherwise why would we have idiots still testing positive for EPO?

As they're all full, on a relative basis, this should level the playfield

 

[pmcg76]

It's sad that no one can win a race without someone accusing them of doping.

I still like Cancellera, regardless of the hate.

Where do you see the hate for Cancellara? I just see people questioning a staggering perfromance, I call that cynicism not hate but if you have followed this sport for any length of time, the cynicism is not that hard to understand.

I am not one of the people accusing Cancellara but I certainly understand why people are disbelieveing. Yes it is sad but that is the current state of pro cycling, unfortunately. If there were no cheats, we would not have this problem, simple really.

Stop throwing that word 'hate' around, lets just call it a healthy dose of cynicism.

 

[luckyboy]

I don't agree with this statement because all the medical programs are not the same and are dependant on how much money the rider or the team has. Otherwise why would we have idiots still testing positive for EPO?

Plus, riders respond to dope in different ways..

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I agree with you.

I was replying to the person that wrote that everybody is doping so there is level playing field. I don't agree with this statement because all the medical programs are not the same and are dependant on how much money the rider or the team has. Otherwise why would we have idiots still testing positive for EPO?

Ah. But, still, "level the playing field" does not necessarily mean "pancake flat"; it can mean "level enough to be reasonably fair".

Different riders react differently to different methods of training as well as PED usage, so there is always going to be some inherent unlevelness. I mean, if you and I trained 25% more than these guys, and they used no PEDs, and we did, we'd probably still get killed by them. I know I would. Is that a level playing field? There are unfair natural advantages. Arguably, how one reacts to PEDs is just another such factor.

Also, they are all subject to having to pass the same tests (though some are tested more often than others).

One big point is you don't see the riders themselves complaining about anyone else having an unfair advantage.

Obviously the redneck and Canc have developed some engines apparently tuned by Ferrari. Makes me wonder how they will do in the Tour compared to previous years.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Clearly doping does play a role but it's certainly only one part of the equation in a winning formula. (pun intended).

Which part? Many here argue that doping is what you have to do just to level the playing field.

 

[BikeCentric]

Which part? Many here argue that doping is what you have to do just to level the playing field.

Well I meant that winning a pro bike race requires genetics, training, proper/disciplined nutrition, proper/disciplined sleep patterns, racing skill, racing tactical knowledge, bike handling skills, and yes probabaly doping. In addition to many other factors.

So I was just trying to make the point that when somebody wins we can't just say "well he was doped up, that's why he won" but neither can we say "well they're all doped up so it's still a legitimate performance on a level playing field."

The answer lies between the two extremes of position and it is along the lines that doping plays a part in the outcome of the races but it may or may not be the dominant factor and it's certainly only one of many factors that go into what determines the results list.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Well I meant that winning a pro bike race requires genetics, training, proper/disciplined nutrition, proper/disciplined sleep patterns, racing skill, racing tactical knowledge, bike handling skills, and yes probabaly doping. In addition to many other factors.

So I was just trying to make the point that when somebody wins we can't just say "well he was doped up, that's why he won" but neither can we say "well they're all doped up so it's still a legitimate performance on a level playing field."

The answer lies between the two extremes of position and it is along the lines that doping plays a part in the outcome of the races but it may or may not be the dominant factor and it's certainly only one of many factors that go into what determines the results list.

That's a good point and I'm not disagreeing with you. The point I was trying to make is that theories of "well he was doped up, that's why he won" and "well they're all doped up so it's still a legitimate performance on a level playing field" are contradictory and therefor mutually exclusive.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Plus, riders respond to dope in different ways..

Riders respond to training in different ways, and wind, hills, bad weather, pollen. It has just become one more variable in the game.

 

[Willy_Voet]

So have you whiners figured out who the real winner is, yet? Or are you just sure that Cancellara was using something because your man-lust boy-toy didn't win?

 

[Oldman]

So have you whiners figured out who the real winner is, yet? Or are you just sure that Cancellara was using something because your man-lust boy-toy didn't win?

I think Boonen was as much careless and inattentive as Cancellara was strong. The combination only made the victory stand out that much more. FC won.

 

[Escarabajo]

Well I meant that winning a pro bike race requires genetics, training, proper/disciplined nutrition, proper/disciplined sleep patterns, racing skill, racing tactical knowledge, bike handling skills, and yes probabaly doping. In addition to many other factors.

So I was just trying to make the point that when somebody wins we can't just say "well he was doped up, that's why he won" but neither can we say "well they're all doped up so it's still a legitimate performance on a level playing field."

The answer lies between the two extremes of position and it is along the lines that doping plays a part in the outcome of the races but it may or may not be the dominant factor and it's certainly only one of many factors that go into what determines the results list.

+1. Agree.

The only question is from all these factors how much is weighted on Doping? Is it so much that the others are not as big of a factor?

Let's throw some hypothetical numbers:

Training & Fitness for the event: 25 % ?
Natural talent, Genes, Whatever: 25 % ?
Sleep & Healthy life: 10 % ?
Tactics:10% ? Or maybe more in this case. But you can argue that if Cancellara didn't have the motor at the moment of the attack it would have been in vane.
Doping and Response to Doping: 25% ?
Bike Handling: 5% ?(It helps a lot to be fitted and prepared for the event)

Now, don't kill the messenger. I am just throwing some numbers out there.

 

[Nick777]

Ah. But, still, "level the playing field" does not necessarily mean "pancake flat"; it can mean "level enough to be reasonably fair".

Different riders react differently to different methods of training as well as PED usage, so there is always going to be some inherent unlevelness. I mean, if you and I trained 25% more than these guys, and they used no PEDs, and we did, we'd probably still get killed by them. I know I would. Is that a level playing field? There are unfair natural advantages. Arguably, how one reacts to PEDs is just another such factor.

Also, they are all subject to having to pass the same tests (though some are tested more often than others).

One big point is you don't see the riders themselves complaining about anyone else having an unfair advantage.

Obviously the redneck and Canc have developed some engines apparently tuned by Ferrari. Makes me wonder how they will do in the Tour compared to previous years.

It's called 'Omerta'.

 

[samb01]

If dope is the main reason for Cancellara cancelling the opposition, it must be incredibly effective : he has been doing it for 13 years!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Cancellara

False dichotomy. Ullrich, Basso, and Valverde are but three examples of (probably) extremely talented riders who are/were also dopers.

Cancellara is no Schleck, I'll certainly give him that.

 

[Race Radio]

False dichotomy. Ullrich, Basso, and Valverde are but three examples of (probably) extremely talented riders who are/were also dopers.

Cancellara is no Schleck, I'll certainly give him that.

They are great examples of riders who responded especially well to dope.

 

[galaxy1]

if you race a long way (200k in this case) in a bunch including numerous sectors of cobbles and numerous ineffective attacks from your (generally evenly matched) opposition, some days you will simply feel fresher than everyone else, and therefore be able to take loads of time out of all of them whilst looking good doing it. sometimes this happens repeatedly over a few weeks, and then it is usually called "form".

this is true in the group i ride in socially (i can assure you none of use are doping). it is also true at the very highest level. and every level in between.

doping may and may not be prevalent in the peloton but this race tells you nothing about it.

 

[JPM London]

... sometimes this happens repeatedly over a few weeks, and then it is usually called "form".

+1. That was so fun

this is true in the group i ride in socially (i can assure you none of use are doping).

Are you sure that you're sure?

 

[dopingectomy]

False dichotomy. Ullrich, Basso, and Valverde are but three examples of (probably) extremely talented riders who are/were also dopers.

Cancellara is no Schleck, I'll certainly give him that.

funny that
- Ullrich, who lives a few kilometers from Cancellara, was involved in the Puerto Affair
- Basso, who had the same doctore as Cancellara, was involved in the Puerto affair
- Schleck, who is in the same team as Cancellara, was involved in the Puerto Affair
and, surprisingly enough, Cancellara has never been mentioned in the Puerto affair despite the connection between Cecchini and Fuentes.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'm surprised no one asked this question - If we're sure Cancellara is doped, was Boonen clean? Or, was Boonen doped during his impressive Ronde and P-R wins of the past?

 

[Oldman]

I think almost everyone presumes they operate with the same access to peds. The tone of some posters suggest Cancellara may be onto something new. Get that same sense on Horner thread.

 

[JPM London]

funny that
- Ullrich, who lives a few kilometers from Cancellara, was involved in the Puerto Affair
- Basso, who had the same doctore as Cancellara, was involved in the Puerto affair
- Schleck, who is in the same team as Cancellara, was involved in the Puerto Affair
and, surprisingly enough, Cancellara has never been mentioned in the Puerto affair despite the connection between Cecchini and Fuentes.

Yes, and Ricardo Ricco and Bernhard Kohl, who are also pro cyclists, were convicted of doping (that one was ironic if anybody should fail to catch that)

By the way; there are other people living in Switzerland than the two cyclists as for the other points:
- Basso and FC (as well as many more CSC/Saxo riders through time) used Cecchini, but according to Bjarne Riis himself (who is nowadays happy to say he doped) has also made it clear that Cecchini was not his doper and that he actually advised Riis to be very careful with his health (ie he knew Riis doped, but didn't like it). Maybe Cecchini is actually not a dope-administer, which could also explain why he was not convicted...
- Maybe the fact that FC was not mentioned in OP is because he had nothing to do with it?? And here I don't even want to mention that the Schleck link to OP is very thin (to me the bank transfer doesn't signify much and he hasn't been linked in other ways).

But enough already: You are obviously pointing towards merely suspicious activity, while I'm focussed on something more proof-like...

 

[JPM London]

I'm surprised no one asked this question - If we're sure Cancellara is doped, was Boonen clean? Or, was Boonen doped during his impressive Ronde and P-R wins of the past?

No, no. Boonen would never dope. He only uses cocaine habitually

 

[Race Radio]

funny that
- Ullrich, who lives a few kilometers from Cancellara, was involved in the Puerto Affair
- Basso, who had the same doctore as Cancellara, was involved in the Puerto affair
- Schleck, who is in the same team as Cancellara, was involved in the Puerto Affair
and, surprisingly enough, Cancellara has never been mentioned in the Puerto affair despite the connection between Cecchini and Fuentes.

Ulrich actually spent most of his time in his house in Italy..... in the same town as Cecchini's near Lucca. Riis also held CSC training camps there.

As for Fuentes the blood bag with the name Clasicomano (Luigi) has always been rumored to be Cancellera.

 

[JPM London]

As for Fuentes the blood bag with the name Clasicomano (Luigi) has always been rumored to be Cancellera.

Have not heard that one before. What is the name link supposed to be?

 

[wattage]

- Basso and FC (as well as many more CSC/Saxo riders through time) used Cecchini, but according to Bjarne Riis himself (who is nowadays happy to say he doped) has also made it clear that Cecchini was not his doper and that he actually advised Riis to be very careful with his health (ie he knew Riis doped, but didn't like it). Maybe Cecchini is actually not a dope-administer, which could also explain why he was not convicted...

Yes, I am sure FC only received some interval training tips from Cecchini. Like Lance used Ferrari just for his training program..