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On the other hand, Andy Schleck won the Tour at the height of Contador's career.
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Due to reasons we can't talk about here. However, I doubt anyone would argue that Andy was likely the best pure climber in several of those Grand Tours.
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No, what I'm saying is Froome is such a lucky leader that he didn't have to deal with LL, LA, or Vino because he already showed multiple times how "good" of a leader he is with team going against him. He is also a lucky leader that Sky is able to pay his teammates so much money to support him. As Rob Parker says all the time about another great, he is the LOAT.
- Aug 13, 2011
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It would have been a good race as long as no crashes. Contador had Froome's number in 2012 and 2014 with him being the main reason Nairo beat Froome in 2016 Vuelta in question to Rui's question. A 2009 Contador vs 2013 Froome vs 2010 A. Schleck vs 2013 Nairo vs 2014 Nibali with their teams from that year in full support of each rider would have been an amazing race.
Froome has 4 tours de france, and contador 2, froome beat multiple times contador.....we all know who s the best. Don t tell me that your favorite rider/ riders are better than froome because they won without a team,or because froome had "always" a great team when they even can t follow froome s wheel.
- Aug 13, 2011
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Oh good because Contador and Froome's defenses were both the same. We all know how it turned out for both riders.
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Technically Contador has 3 Tours, 3 Vueltas, and 3 Giros. Froome has 4 Tours, 1 Giro, 1 Vuelta and a Vuelta that was GIFTED to him. Heck Lance Amstrong was a better Tour racer than Froome. Indurain is the ONLY rider to have ever won 5 Tours in a row, plus won the Giro/Tour twice during that stretch.
Contador is not my favorite rider. Contador has beaten Froome on multiple occasions. Sorry, but Froome is not better than Contador. Make Froome try without a great team and he won't win. Froome is not close to a good enough tactician.
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- Oct 14, 2017
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You know there are rules AGAINST that in this forum, correct? Thus you must go to a DIFFERENT sub-forum to talk about that.
- Aug 13, 2011
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What she's saying is Froome and Sky are LA and USPS to Contador and teams Ullrich and Telekom. Froome/Sky unlike Contador has also shown to bend the rules with feeds before the final mountain, feeds during the mountain, miss using the powers of the leaders jersey, and whole team finishing well outside the time limit but one I believe. Among other things.
I don't even think Contador is in her top 5 favorite Spanish riders.
The Froome-Contador comparison has to take into account that Contador is a little older, and peaked mostly before Froome came onto the scene. He didn't get to race Froome (or Wiggins, who of course he consistently beat easily in previous Tours) in 2012 (for other-forum reasons, of course). In 2013, Contador may not have completely recovered from the long layoff, or he just may have had a bad year, for whatever reason. In 2014, they both crashed out of a Tour that either might have won (or not, given Nibs's dominance), but Contador prevailed in the Vuelta. In 2015, Contador won the Giro. Even without that, he might not have been favored to beat Froome in the TDF that year, but surely the Giro severely handicapped his chances. He was probably past his peak in 2015, and certainly was in 2016, even if he hadn't crashed out again.
So most of the Froome-Contador matchups have featured peak Froome vs. past peak Contador. The only year that Froome prevailed when Contador was at his peak age was 2013. Nobody ever talks about all the GTs Contador was winning when Froome was pre-peak. Contador won his first TDF at age 24, and the last year when he might have won it was probably 2014, when he was 31. He was still a strong contender at age 32. In that respect, his career has been similar to that of other multiple Tour winners, reaching the top before age 25, and finished not long after 30. An eight year reign at the top, though he lost two years from the CAS decision (in stripped titles + suspension), so effectively six.
Froome won his first Tour at age 28, and was probably at the top at age 33, when he won the Giro, and likely would have won the Tour if he hadn't raced the Giro. A six year reign, but if you give him 2012, when he probably would have won if he had been the leader, and last year, he's had an eight year reign. They've both won seven GTs, but Froome has won more Tours, and has three other podiums. Most of that difference reflects the full eight years at the top, vs. six for Contador. If you want to argue Froome over Contador, I think those eight vs. six years are the difference, rather than any distinction between what they were at their peak. If you give Contador those two years, he has two more GTs, and his GT palmares are pretty even with Froome's I think.
History says that even without the accident, Froome at 35 would not likely be the strongest rider any more, but if he should confound the skeptics and win or even put up a very strong challenge this year, you could argue that he's had an even longer reign at the top.
So most of the Froome-Contador matchups have featured peak Froome vs. past peak Contador. The only year that Froome prevailed when Contador was at his peak age was 2013. Nobody ever talks about all the GTs Contador was winning when Froome was pre-peak. Contador won his first TDF at age 24, and the last year when he might have won it was probably 2014, when he was 31. He was still a strong contender at age 32. In that respect, his career has been similar to that of other multiple Tour winners, reaching the top before age 25, and finished not long after 30. An eight year reign at the top, though he lost two years from the CAS decision (in stripped titles + suspension), so effectively six.
Froome won his first Tour at age 28, and was probably at the top at age 33, when he won the Giro, and likely would have won the Tour if he hadn't raced the Giro. A six year reign, but if you give him 2012, when he probably would have won if he had been the leader, and last year, he's had an eight year reign. They've both won seven GTs, but Froome has won more Tours, and has three other podiums. Most of that difference reflects the full eight years at the top, vs. six for Contador. If you want to argue Froome over Contador, I think those eight vs. six years are the difference, rather than any distinction between what they were at their peak. If you give Contador those two years, he has two more GTs, and his GT palmares are pretty even with Froome's I think.
History says that even without the accident, Froome at 35 would not likely be the strongest rider any more, but if he should confound the skeptics and win or even put up a very strong challenge this year, you could argue that he's had an even longer reign at the top.
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- Nov 16, 2013
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I shudder to think how closed all Grand Tours in the 2010's would have been if Sky had had a domestique at the level of Jesús Hernández!
What an extraordinarily weird example. Way to shoot oneself in the feet...
- Feb 20, 2012
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Contador level teams he probably loses his Giro, the 2015 Tour, and I can see him lose the 2017 Tour and maybe Vuelta as well
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Interestingly, prior to the 2012 Vuelta, there were only two days when they were in the same race (LBL & Fleche in 2010)
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In terms of strong teams, Contador has never had a team as strong as Froome's best teams (except for possibly the 2009 TDF which wasn't all for him), but they often haven't been as weak as the narrative has played out. At least not if you compare to another consistent GC contender like Cadel Evans.....now that guy had pretty weak support.....it was so weak that they highlighted his teammates helping him to not lose time on flat stages....
Now, as for Contador....the very first GT that he won, which also happened to be the TDF, also saw him riding in arguably the strongest team. As has been mentioned, Levi was never of much help to anyone, but at the very least, a rider who is on your team is highly unlikely to ride actively against you. As such, Levi at least wasn't opposition.
Probably put my foot in it there....
The biggest stage of that 2007 TDF was probably the stage to PDB. And who was the rider who largely destroyed the peloton halfway up the final climb? Popovich. Who was riding for Discovery Channel. Who Contador also happened to be riding for.
In 2008 Contador won the Giro and the Vuelta, with a very strong team. Astana - pre Lance - were a little more cohesive, and I believe that Kloden in particular rode a lot for Contador in the Vuelta (he lost four minutes on an early flat stage and so any chance of a good personal GC position. Kloden, when he rode as a domestique, was virtually as good as any domestique.
In the 2009 TDF Contador's teammates didn't ride for him, but it wasn't the same as them not being on the same team, where they could/would have rode more actively against him. If Kloden and Armstrong had been on the same team as the Schleck brother's Contador probably would have still won the TDF, but it also probably would have been a closer GC fight.
In the 2010 TDF, well.....Contador had such a strong team, that on one of the key climbs in the entire race, the Madeline; Alberto's Astana destroyed the race so much that his team had dropped EVERY rider EXCEPT for Andy Schleck.
I think it was just Navarro who was still there with the two best riders.
That was pretty much as good a job as any team has done in the modern era in a key mountain stage of a GT.
And in the stage to AX3 Domaines (before the infamous track stands) I recall Vino blowing up the race a bit at the bottom of the climb.
In the 2011 Giro Contador didn't have much a team, from memory. Not sure if he had much 'team' support in the 2012 Vuelta either. In the 2013 TDF he had the best deluxe domestique of anyone. In the 2014 TDF.....we don't really know. Same with 2016. In the 2015 Giro....that was possibly his greatest GT win; taking down that Astana team.
Anyway, Contador didn't typically ride on trains, but he had some pretty significant support at times.
Now, as for Contador....the very first GT that he won, which also happened to be the TDF, also saw him riding in arguably the strongest team. As has been mentioned, Levi was never of much help to anyone, but at the very least, a rider who is on your team is highly unlikely to ride actively against you. As such, Levi at least wasn't opposition.
Probably put my foot in it there....
The biggest stage of that 2007 TDF was probably the stage to PDB. And who was the rider who largely destroyed the peloton halfway up the final climb? Popovich. Who was riding for Discovery Channel. Who Contador also happened to be riding for.
In 2008 Contador won the Giro and the Vuelta, with a very strong team. Astana - pre Lance - were a little more cohesive, and I believe that Kloden in particular rode a lot for Contador in the Vuelta (he lost four minutes on an early flat stage and so any chance of a good personal GC position. Kloden, when he rode as a domestique, was virtually as good as any domestique.
In the 2009 TDF Contador's teammates didn't ride for him, but it wasn't the same as them not being on the same team, where they could/would have rode more actively against him. If Kloden and Armstrong had been on the same team as the Schleck brother's Contador probably would have still won the TDF, but it also probably would have been a closer GC fight.
In the 2010 TDF, well.....Contador had such a strong team, that on one of the key climbs in the entire race, the Madeline; Alberto's Astana destroyed the race so much that his team had dropped EVERY rider EXCEPT for Andy Schleck.
I think it was just Navarro who was still there with the two best riders.
That was pretty much as good a job as any team has done in the modern era in a key mountain stage of a GT.
And in the stage to AX3 Domaines (before the infamous track stands) I recall Vino blowing up the race a bit at the bottom of the climb.
In the 2011 Giro Contador didn't have much a team, from memory. Not sure if he had much 'team' support in the 2012 Vuelta either. In the 2013 TDF he had the best deluxe domestique of anyone. In the 2014 TDF.....we don't really know. Same with 2016. In the 2015 Giro....that was possibly his greatest GT win; taking down that Astana team.
Anyway, Contador didn't typically ride on trains, but he had some pretty significant support at times.
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There s no technically and nothing gifted, contador won 7 tours and froome also 7 tours. Contador and cobo breaked the rules, that s simple.
He beat froome multiple times? When? In Vuelta 2014 when he sucked froome s wheel? That s the only time i remember.
If this forum has certain rules, we shouldn t be talking about Armstrong.
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Jesus hernandez was a weak climber....but it was contador who always wanted him and sergio paulinho on his teams, you know that right? And Daniel navarro?kreuziger? Rodgers? Sergio paulinho? Popovych? What a bad teammates that contador had......
If you want to win GT races, you will need a strong team. Froome had Sky and more or less there was always another potential GT winner invovled, that needed to sacrifice himself for Froome. That was the formula. Froome obviously had to be good, or the formula wouldn't work. What Froome likely won't have in his new team is that potential GT winner, prepared to sacrifice himself for Froome. But now i guess Froome will have a chance to show how good he is. Not necessarily by winning the Tour, other GT races should do.
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As has been said here before, Contador has had strong teams backing him several times, but the way he used them meant that it was the strenght of Contador himself and not his team that stayed in the memory. The way Navarro rode everyone but Andy and Contador off his wheel in TDF 2010 was an exception in that context.
My impression is that Contadors pre-suspension peak was higher than anything we have seen from Froome, but he never had the kind of intimidation factor going for him, like the combination of Froome and Sky train had for the Kenyan/Briton.
Specially during the later years when he started targeting GT doubles did that combination of Sky's actual strenght and intimidation factor come in handy for Froome. Given his own strenght he probably would have won at least 2-3 Tours with a singnificantly weaker team too, but there likely would be no Tour-Vuelta double (a lot had to go his way as it was already) and no holding all three GT titles at the same time. Likely extra energy required to clinch those Tours would almost certainly had come back to bite him at his second GT.
My impression is that Contadors pre-suspension peak was higher than anything we have seen from Froome, but he never had the kind of intimidation factor going for him, like the combination of Froome and Sky train had for the Kenyan/Briton.
Specially during the later years when he started targeting GT doubles did that combination of Sky's actual strenght and intimidation factor come in handy for Froome. Given his own strenght he probably would have won at least 2-3 Tours with a singnificantly weaker team too, but there likely would be no Tour-Vuelta double (a lot had to go his way as it was already) and no holding all three GT titles at the same time. Likely extra energy required to clinch those Tours would almost certainly had come back to bite him at his second GT.
This is how infighting might look like, teams that will bring multiple leaders to the Tour, like Ineos, TJV ...
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88Ti7xcdt6o
- May 5, 2010
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Contador was never the same after 2010.
So the question is which Contador are you comparing to Froome?
Post 2010 Contador won only two battles with Froome: 2012 Vuelta when Froome tired after doing the TDF; and 2014 Vuelta when Froome clearly was not as recovered from injury as Contador. Otherwise, frankly, Contador was dominated by Froome in the mountains and particularly in the time trials. In those he never came close to recapturing the "form" that had him beating Cancellera in 2010...
Froome particularly dominated Contador in races in France. And I have my suspicions as to why that would be...
So the question is which Contador are you comparing to Froome?
Post 2010 Contador won only two battles with Froome: 2012 Vuelta when Froome tired after doing the TDF; and 2014 Vuelta when Froome clearly was not as recovered from injury as Contador. Otherwise, frankly, Contador was dominated by Froome in the mountains and particularly in the time trials. In those he never came close to recapturing the "form" that had him beating Cancellera in 2010...
Froome particularly dominated Contador in races in France. And I have my suspicions as to why that would be...
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You really can't get out of your bias to look at this objectively at all. Froome at his peak would have had no chance of beating Contador at his career peak.
Contador WON 3 Tours and 9 GTs on the road. Froome was racing against a POST peak Contador and Contador DID beat him. Contador won by his own abilities. Froome has won because of Sky/Ineos not his own abilities for the most part.
We can talk about Lance all we want to in the context of racing in this forum.
- Nov 16, 2013
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And why contador after his suspension, was never the same he was in 2007/2010? Can someone explain me that?! Certainly it wasn t because of his age.... in 2011 he had 29 years.
Your suspicions are right.
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