Cian is one of the rare riders that went to Visma and is now performing worse. So something is off and lets hope they figure it out.
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Kruijswijk was 23 years old and got 9th(8th) 13’51” (7’41”) on a far harder 2011 Goro d’Italia course compared to 2023 Vuelta. While 20 year old Kruijswijk might not be better than 20 year old Cian, then23 year old version was definitely better compared to the 20 year old Cian. It then took till the 2015 Giro before Kruijswijk came back to high placings in GTs, could be the same for Cian.
Kruijswijk was 23 years old and got 9th(8th) 13’51” (7’41”) on a far harder 2011 Goro d’Italia course compared to 2023 Vuelta. While 20 year old Kruijswijk might not be better than 20 year old Cian, then23 year old version was definitely better compared to the 20 year old Cian. It then took till the 2015 Giro before Kruijswijk came back to high placings in GTs, could be the same for Cian.
Chad might end up a very solid rider but it is completely pointless to compare today's young riders performance at x age vs older generations of riders who were not trained the way kids/juniors train today
To even end up with a career like Kruijswijk, Kelderman, Kuss, he needs to improve a lot. Still possible, he is very young, and everyone can have a bad year. And he would be a very good rider if he achieved the same as those guys. If he has a shrewd brain, might even win some like Mollema.
Mas, Almeida another level up when talking about diesels.
I just hope he is not another of those riders that never gets the magic back of their first GT.
Mas, Almeida another level up when talking about diesels.
I just hope he is not another of those riders that never gets the magic back of their first GT.
Point is that his 2023 season would already be one of the better seasons in Kruijswijk's or Kelderman's long careers, and we know those are not going to get better anymore. So i think it's a bit disingenuous to say that's his level, while he has only completed one full pro season and in his second one, clearly something is wrong.
Jokepost? You are now going to compare the career of a 21 year old to those of guys 10-15 years older? Also who was comparing him to Kuss, a fluke GT winner? Chances are that won't happen to him, that's true. Far better riders than Kuss have never won a GT.
That said, no, he doesn't have to improve a lot, he just has to stay healthy and grow older.
I'm sorry, what? Uijtdebroeks was 8th in the friggin' Vuelta, which wouldn't be anything to write home about if it weren't for the fact that he was like 15 years old. Other than that, he was 6th in Romandie and 7th in Suisse. Meanwhile, Kelderman has been 4th, 7th and 10th, plus 5th at the Tour and 3rd and 7th at the Giro, and he routinely gets better results than Cian's in top-level one-week races. Uijtdebroeks came in 95th place in the 2023 CQ Ranking, Kelderman has scored better than that in EIGHT separate seasons (and he's on track to make that nine seasons). Are you overrating Uijtdebroeks, or massively underrating Kelderman?
Just stating that at the moment he got 1 decent result as a pro but seems unable to replicate that form. And yes, it just might be that 2024 got messed up, with the transfer and the giro COVID.
But he looks a lot more fragile then he did last year. And that is something you don’t want to see for a rider who wants to be a regular Gc contender. even more if your USP is dieseling, outlasting your opponents.
He also lacks a good ITT or finish, something he will need if he wants to be more then a fringe contender. Considering there is a bunch of GT talent coming, it is not wrong for people to question if he really can get in the mix after what he has shown in 2024. how much patience will Ineos have with Foss or Arensmann before they are put in the super domestiques category? Will Vlasov or Gaudu get a lot more chances as team leaders? There a probably 50 riders or more that had one good GC at some stage in their career, but how many of those have gotten to be regular top 5 contenders?
these similar riders are not competing for a fringe top 10 place, but are focusing on stage victories, or super domestiques for a top 3 contender. Kelderman, kruijswijk, Kuss, a few Ineos riders and now UAE, could have gotten some more top 15 finishes if they had been riding solely for the GC as the leader of a smaller team. They had great careers and some could have ended up with a GC win just a little luck like Kuss.
So for me there is no guarantee that he will even have a career like those riders.
But he looks a lot more fragile then he did last year. And that is something you don’t want to see for a rider who wants to be a regular Gc contender. even more if your USP is dieseling, outlasting your opponents.
He also lacks a good ITT or finish, something he will need if he wants to be more then a fringe contender. Considering there is a bunch of GT talent coming, it is not wrong for people to question if he really can get in the mix after what he has shown in 2024. how much patience will Ineos have with Foss or Arensmann before they are put in the super domestiques category? Will Vlasov or Gaudu get a lot more chances as team leaders? There a probably 50 riders or more that had one good GC at some stage in their career, but how many of those have gotten to be regular top 5 contenders?
these similar riders are not competing for a fringe top 10 place, but are focusing on stage victories, or super domestiques for a top 3 contender. Kelderman, kruijswijk, Kuss, a few Ineos riders and now UAE, could have gotten some more top 15 finishes if they had been riding solely for the GC as the leader of a smaller team. They had great careers and some could have ended up with a GC win just a little luck like Kuss.
So for me there is no guarantee that he will even have a career like those riders.
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OMG, thank you! Why didn't i think of that! The CQ ranking! It could have been so easy to end debates about Evenepoel being better than Van der Poel, Vingegaard, Roglic and everyone else except Pogacar. The CQ ranking, of course!
Now, back in the real world, the one where we look at races and results, Uijtdebroeks' 2023 season had:
Vuelta: 8th, Suisse: 7th, Romandie: 6th, Catalunya: 9th.
In exactly what universe is Kelderman's 2024 better, with just Suisse: 9th and Paris Nice: 8th?
His 2023? Suisse: 4th. That's all.
2022? No top 10.
2021 Tour: 5th, Dauphiné: 4th, Romandie: 10th, Catalunya: 5th.
2020 Giro: 3rd, TA: 4th.
2019 Vuelta: 7th.
2018 Vuelta: 10th, Suisse: 5th.
2017 Vuelta: 4th, Romandie: 9th.
2016 Suisse: 8th.
2015 Catalunya: 9th.
2014 Giro: 7th, Dauphiné: 4th.
2013: Romandie: 5th.
2012: Dauphiné: 8th.
So, tell me, how many seasons out of a 13 year career do you think are better? I count 3. Maybe 4. My original statement, that Uijtdebroeks 2023 would already rate among the better seasons in Kelderman's and Kruijswijk's careers, stands.
This can all be trained to an extent. Sure, he'll never be Valverde, but look at how Remco has improved his explosivity for example. Riders tend to get more well-rounded as they mature. Even Kruiswijk was more of an all-rounder than he gets credit for when he was at his best.
Clearly, this can't be normal to drop already. Visma-LAB needs to take that poor guy out of the race. This can't be good for him in the short and long run
I just admire with how much confidence you spout absolute bollocks.
I'm always baffled, actually it is with some admiration I observe with how much confidence you spout nonsense. You just smoothly omit plenty of WT top-10s of Kelderman at UAE Tour, Poland, Tour Down Under, Eneco Tour etc. Plus, I fully agree with you on your CQ ranking slander, I also think it is not the best indicator of how great one's career is, but ignoring cycling quotients actually favours riders like Kelderman. Take last year f.i., where he had a crucial role as a domestique for Vingegaard in winning the Tour, didn't give him any points but did show how decent of a cyclist he was. I fully agree with @hrotha on this one.
All I've learned from this thread is that Bentacur is the goat for sneaking into that top 25 list. What a legend.
Peyroteo94
BANNED
Contador has 51k after his ban. Dude would have way more if he had the same thread thoughout his career.
lol, no my friend. Tour Down Under, Eneco Tour and Poland do not matter in this regard. Not one bit. The one spouting nonsense here is not me. I also didn't mention Uijtdebroeks Tour of Oman top 10. And while those other races are WT, they are meaningless when it comes to GT GC potential (just ask the forum, after Evenepoel won Poland, it became utterly meaningless, lol), which was the context of the discussion. Uijtdebroeks wants to be a GT GC rider. He does not want to be a classics rider or stage hunter. For both riders, i only looked at GT and the 7 big one week GC's.
When there is a discussion about Merlier and comparing him to Van Aert, to see who is the best sprinter, you don't bring up Van Aert's Mont Ventoux win or his ITT wins. Or a more apt comparison might be Evenepoel vs Vingegaard.
Funny you fully agree with Hrotha after fully agreeing his CQ ranking comment is BS, when most of his point was based on that. lol. But a user named Keldergoat is disagreeing with me? I'm shocked.
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Who's talking about GC potential only? Your comment initially was that Uijtdebroeks '2023 season would already be one of the better seasons in Kelderman’s career', not referring to only GC potential. Before that you stated that his climbing results were better than their climbing results 'even later in their careers'. You constantly make bold statements, than water them down claiming you didn't mean it that way while that is quite literally what you stated.
Let's ask @Valv.Piti who initially brought it up, whether he meant to compare Uijtdebroeks to Kelderman, Kruijswijk and Mas, as potential GC rider, or rather as a GC rider, with part time domestique duties, and results in races not one fcking soul on the face of the planet cares about, like a top 10 in Eneco Tour, like you seem to believe.
Because before you want to call me out on spouting bollocks and talking nonsense, maybe you might want to do some comprehensive reading so that maybe you understand the context of the discussion. It helps to not spout nonsense or bollocks yourself.
I did not water anything down, i merely explained my stance in case you misunderstood. Believe me, i'm not likely to water down a statement i believe to be true. I think the list i made, speaks for itself. There are perhaps 4 out of 13 seasons in Kelderman's career, that are better than Uijtdebroeks' last season. I personally don't see any wiggle room there. So, 4 out of 13, i think that fits with my statement, "one of the better seasons". I also don't see how a top 10 in Eneco or Poland is going to shift the needle. And unless the forum is filled with hypocrites, you won't find lots of posters to support your case.
I indeed said his climbing chops last year were better than theirs at age 20, and even later in their careers. That's what i said, and that is also true. At his age, they weren't even close. And it took quite a few years for them to perform better. I didn't say they never performed better, or i would have stated it with that word. Never. Which i didn't. I'm quite aware a top 5 or top 3 in the TDF ranks higher than a top 10 in the Vuelta.
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And yet Kruijswijk nearly won the Giro and podiumed the Tour. Plus top 5 in Vuelta. He's had a pretty good career and has been in the WT peloton for 15 years. If that's Cian's fate it's going to be better than 95% of pro cyclists'...
Good efforts today. Seems he's finding himself again, step by step.
Altough more than average talented, he has not the qualities of a future GT-winner. Probably not even a potential podium-rider. Not explosive, and mediocre in TT. Bad for stagewins and bad for GT-ambitions. But he does have talent.
But what happened this season, and probably also during the winter ? It's clear he's having trouble digesting the food-app. After that, both Uijtdebroeks and the team made serious mistakes. The rider by concealing the fact that he already suffered from numb legs at the beginning of the season. The team by allowing him to stay in the Vuelta for two weeks despite his poor health condition. I suspect that, after the heavy criticism, the team is now using a Covid excuse to withdraw him from the Vuelta. But much too late. Hopefully his season ends now, and the necessary medical examinations are now finally being carried out. Then everything can still work out before the start of the next season. It is important that they do not put the rider in a straightjacket, but take his qualities, weaknesses and physical limitations into account. Otherwise he will be destroyed next season and it will be the end of his career.
But what happened this season, and probably also during the winter ? It's clear he's having trouble digesting the food-app. After that, both Uijtdebroeks and the team made serious mistakes. The rider by concealing the fact that he already suffered from numb legs at the beginning of the season. The team by allowing him to stay in the Vuelta for two weeks despite his poor health condition. I suspect that, after the heavy criticism, the team is now using a Covid excuse to withdraw him from the Vuelta. But much too late. Hopefully his season ends now, and the necessary medical examinations are now finally being carried out. Then everything can still work out before the start of the next season. It is important that they do not put the rider in a straightjacket, but take his qualities, weaknesses and physical limitations into account. Otherwise he will be destroyed next season and it will be the end of his career.
Not sure, he actually just started riding better this Vuelta, so he probably really has COVID
His racing calendar is a bit different from last year. Instead of building up towards a GT, they are now focussing on 1-week stage races where they expect him to learn to win. Riding finals, riding for podium, doing his best to win. His injury issues are resolved so we should be seeing an Uijtdebroeks more in the line of his 2023 season.
Tour of Oman
Tirreno-Adriatico
Tour de Romandie
Tour de Suisse
Tour of Oman
Tirreno-Adriatico
Tour de Romandie
Tour de Suisse
That's great to hear. Anything at this point should be an improvement over last year.
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