Teams & Riders Cian Uijtdebroeks - From the wetlands to the top of cycling

[stekelegel]

It’s probably a mystery to himself and the team why he is on such a downward curve. Could not do much wrong until catching COVID in the giro, can’t do anything right since. if they had any indication with his team, they would not have taken him to the Vuelta for sure.
He hasn’t got a lot going for him besides longevity in grand tours, maybe should move the career goal to become the next Kuss or Kelderman and not top 5 GT rider. Which are very good riders btw.

 

[Pozzovivo]

It’s probably a mystery to himself and the team why he is on such a downward curve. Could not do much wrong until catching COVID in the giro, can’t do anything right since. if they had any indication with his team, they would not have taken him to the Vuelta for sure.
He hasn’t got a lot going for him besides longevity in grand tours, maybe should move the career goal to become the next Kuss or Kelderman and not top 5 GT rider. Which are very good riders btw.

Extremely premature conclusion. He's 21?!

 

[Squire]

It’s probably a mystery to himself and the team why he is on such a downward curve. Could not do much wrong until catching COVID in the giro, can’t do anything right since. if they had any indication with his team, they would not have taken him to the Vuelta for sure.
He hasn’t got a lot going for him besides longevity in grand tours, maybe should move the career goal to become the next Kuss or Kelderman and not top 5 GT rider. Which are very good riders btw.

How is trying to become the next Kuss or Kelderman any different from trying to become the best grand tour rider he can be?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Extremely premature conclusion. He's 21?!

He's 21 and has already burned one team that believed in him and took a chance on his development. Perhaps going the Kelderman/Kuss route for the next couple of years might be good for his development, maybe he can even learn to accelerate in a climb.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Too limited of a rider. Diesel without top-end talent. Kruijswijk/Kelderman territory, Mas very, very best case

 

[Pozzovivo]

He's 21 and has already burned one team that believed in him and took a chance on his development. Perhaps going the Kelderman/Kuss route for the next couple of years might be good for his development, maybe he can even learn to accelerate in a climb.

One not-so-great season and we are writing him off? He's not the next Rrrremco but for sure he should set his goals high and go for GC GT podium. He seems very chipper in interviews. You can't accelerate if you are on the limit and beyond that. Did you see Pogi's spring in stage 11 this year? If he gets a bit better he will also be more aggressive and drop some good watts on attacks.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Too limited of a rider. Diesel without top-end talent. Kruijswijk/Kelderman territory, Mas very, very best case

Hold on. Don Enric is pogi level + right now. No need to compare him to the rampas inhuMAnaS!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It’s probably a mystery to himself and the team why he is on such a downward curve. Could not do much wrong until catching COVID in the giro, can’t do anything right since. if they had any indication with his team, they would not have taken him to the Vuelta for sure.
He hasn’t got a lot going for him besides longevity in grand tours, maybe should move the career goal to become the next Kuss or Kelderman and not top 5 GT rider. Which are very good riders btw.

Problems started before the Giro. See Catalunya.

Too limited of a rider. Diesel without top-end talent. Kruijswijk/Kelderman territory, Mas very, very best case

No top end talent? Based on what? His WT GC's at the age of 20? Seems to me like a diesel with top end talent. They just need to figure out what is going wrong, and pick up where he left off last year. His climbing results last year were already far beyond what Mas, Kelderman or Kruijswijk showed at that age, and even later in their careers.

 

[Hugh Januss]

One not-so-great season and we are writing him off? He's not the next Rrrremco but for sure he should set his goals high and go for GC GT podium. He seems very chipper in interviews. You can't accelerate if you are on the limit and beyond that. Did you see Pogi's spring in stage 11 this year? If he gets a bit better he will also be more aggressive and drop some good watts on attacks.

How is suggesting that he progress in a more normal manner writing him off? Was Vingegaard the team leader in his first grand tour? Or his second? Cian could be a GT team leader today for Jayco or Israel Premier Tech or Arkea or Astana but not UAE or Visma. Not without a lot more seasoning.

 

[Keldergoat]

His climbing results last year were already far beyond what Mas, Kelderman or Kruijswijk showed at that age, and even later in their careers.

That's recensy bias talking. Kruijswijk was on the brink of winning the '16 Giro before the snow hit him, reached a Tour de France podium, Mas was second three times in the Vuelta, all through outstanding climbing performances where they both rivaled some of the very best in their times. Uijtdebroeks was, at his best in his career so far, the 8th best in the Vuelta last year.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

That's recensy bias talking. Kruijswijk was on the brink of winning the '16 Giro before the snow hit him, reached a Tour de France podium, Mas was second three times in the Vuelta, all through outstanding climbing performances where they both rivaled some of the very best in their times. Uijtdebroeks was, at his best in his career so far, the 8th best in the Vuelta last year.

They were not close at his age. And it took them many more years before they showed something beyond what he has already shown last year. No recency bias at all. In 2016 Kruijswijk was 28 years old.

 

[Keldergoat]

You state 'even later in their careers'. That's bull, period. Even Kelderman has reached way more with a podium for the Giro, a fifth place in the Tour and a fourth place in the Vuelta, let alone his absurd consistency over more than 10 years.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I just don't see world class rider in Cian at all. I see a very good rider, but with a limited skillset centered around high mountain climbing and not much else, so unless youre just flat out the best, youre not gonna win very much. Kruijswijk did that in the 2016 Giro that he should have won, and Mas has three top 2s and is looking to be the best rider this year. Not bad company, but I think Mas has more to his game than Cian since he's actually very good at shorter efforts as well in peak shape and can go mano-a-mano with Roglic (as we have seen countless of times, although never winning). Add that to an insane talent pool at the moment

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You state 'even later in their careers'. That's bull, period. Even Kelderman has reached way more with a podium for the Giro, a fifth place in the Tour and a fourth place in the Vuelta, let alone is absurd consistency over more than 10 years.

Yes. Later in their careers. He at 20 was better than Kruijswijk was not only when he was 20, but also when he was 22 or 25. I didn't say they never at any time managed a better performance than Uijtdebroeks did at 20.

I just don't see world class rider in Cian at all. I see a very good rider, but with a limited skillset centered around high mountain climbing and not much else, so unless youre just flat out the best, youre not gonna win very much. Kruijswijk did that in the 2016 Giro that he should have won, and Mas has three top 2s and is looking to be the best rider this year. Not bad company, but I think Mas has more to his game than Cian since he's actually very good at shorter efforts as well in peak shape and can go mano-a-mano with Roglic (as we have seen countless of times, although never winning). Add that to an insane talent pool at the moment

Like i already said, Kruijswijk was 28 in 2016. I also don't think Uijtdebroeks will win a lot, but i do think he has significantly more climbing chops than Kruijswijk or Kelderman. I think you take last year's achievements for granted. Look at Del Toro now, for instance. Same age as Uijtdebroeks last year.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Cian is one of the rare riders that went to Visma and is now performing worse. So something is off and lets hope they figure it out.

 

[SHAD0W93]

[

They were not close at his age. And it took them many more years before they showed something beyond what he has already shown last year. No recency bias at all. In 2016 Kruijswijk was 28 years old.

Yes. Later in their careers. He at 20 was better than Kruijswijk was not only when he was 20, but also when he was 22 or 25. I didn't say they never at any time managed a better performance than Uijtdebroeks did at 20.

Kruijswijk was 23 years old and got 9th(8th) 13’51” (7’41”) on a far harder 2011 Goro d’Italia course compared to 2023 Vuelta. While 20 year old Kruijswijk might not be better than 20 year old Cian, then23 year old version was definitely better compared to the 20 year old Cian. It then took till the 2015 Giro before Kruijswijk came back to high placings in GTs, could be the same for Cian.

 

[saunaking]

Yes. Later in their careers. He at 20 was better than Kruijswijk was not only when he was 20, but also when he was 22 or 25. I didn't say they never at any time managed a better performance than Uijtdebroeks did at 20.

Chad might end up a very solid rider but it is completely pointless to compare today's young riders performance at x age vs older generations of riders who were not trained the way kids/juniors train today

 

[stekelegel]

To even end up with a career like Kruijswijk, Kelderman, Kuss, he needs to improve a lot. Still possible, he is very young, and everyone can have a bad year. And he would be a very good rider if he achieved the same as those guys. If he has a shrewd brain, might even win some like Mollema.
Mas, Almeida another level up when talking about diesels.
I just hope he is not another of those riders that never gets the magic back of their first GT.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Kruijswijk was 23 years old and got 9th(8th) 13’51” (7’41”) on a far harder 2011 Goro d’Italia course compared to 2023 Vuelta. While 20 year old Kruijswijk might not be better than 20 year old Cian, then23 year old version was definitely better compared to the 20 year old Cian. It then took till the 2015 Giro before Kruijswijk came back to high placings in GTs, could be the same for Cian.

Point is that his 2023 season would already be one of the better seasons in Kruijswijk's or Kelderman's long careers, and we know those are not going to get better anymore. So i think it's a bit disingenuous to say that's his level, while he has only completed one full pro season and in his second one, clearly something is wrong.

To even end up with a career like Kruijswijk, Kelderman, Kuss, he needs to improve a lot.

Jokepost? You are now going to compare the career of a 21 year old to those of guys 10-15 years older? Also who was comparing him to Kuss, a fluke GT winner? Chances are that won't happen to him, that's true. Far better riders than Kuss have never won a GT.

That said, no, he doesn't have to improve a lot, he just has to stay healthy and grow older.

 

[hrotha]

Point is that his 2023 season would already be one of the better seasons in Kruijswijk's or Kelderman's long careers

I'm sorry, what? Uijtdebroeks was 8th in the friggin' Vuelta, which wouldn't be anything to write home about if it weren't for the fact that he was like 15 years old. Other than that, he was 6th in Romandie and 7th in Suisse. Meanwhile, Kelderman has been 4th, 7th and 10th, plus 5th at the Tour and 3rd and 7th at the Giro, and he routinely gets better results than Cian's in top-level one-week races. Uijtdebroeks came in 95th place in the 2023 CQ Ranking, Kelderman has scored better than that in EIGHT separate seasons (and he's on track to make that nine seasons). Are you overrating Uijtdebroeks, or massively underrating Kelderman?

 

[stekelegel]

Just stating that at the moment he got 1 decent result as a pro but seems unable to replicate that form. And yes, it just might be that 2024 got messed up, with the transfer and the giro COVID.
But he looks a lot more fragile then he did last year. And that is something you don’t want to see for a rider who wants to be a regular Gc contender. even more if your USP is dieseling, outlasting your opponents.
He also lacks a good ITT or finish, something he will need if he wants to be more then a fringe contender. Considering there is a bunch of GT talent coming, it is not wrong for people to question if he really can get in the mix after what he has shown in 2024. how much patience will Ineos have with Foss or Arensmann before they are put in the super domestiques category? Will Vlasov or Gaudu get a lot more chances as team leaders? There a probably 50 riders or more that had one good GC at some stage in their career, but how many of those have gotten to be regular top 5 contenders?
these similar riders are not competing for a fringe top 10 place, but are focusing on stage victories, or super domestiques for a top 3 contender. Kelderman, kruijswijk, Kuss, a few Ineos riders and now UAE, could have gotten some more top 15 finishes if they had been riding solely for the GC as the leader of a smaller team. They had great careers and some could have ended up with a GC win just a little luck like Kuss.
So for me there is no guarantee that he will even have a career like those riders.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I'm sorry, what? Uijtdebroeks was 8th in the friggin' Vuelta, which wouldn't be anything to write home about if it weren't for the fact that he was like 15 years old. Other than that, he was 6th in Romandie and 7th in Suisse. Meanwhile, Kelderman has been 4th, 7th and 10th, plus 5th at the Tour and 3rd and 7th at the Giro, and he routinely gets better results than Cian's in top-level one-week races. Uijtdebroeks came in 95th place in the 2023 CQ Ranking, Kelderman has scored better than that in EIGHT separate seasons (and he's on track to make that nine seasons). Are you overrating Uijtdebroeks, or massively underrating Kelderman?

OMG, thank you! Why didn't i think of that! The CQ ranking! It could have been so easy to end debates about Evenepoel being better than Van der Poel, Vingegaard, Roglic and everyone else except Pogacar. The CQ ranking, of course!

Now, back in the real world, the one where we look at races and results, Uijtdebroeks' 2023 season had:
Vuelta: 8th, Suisse: 7th, Romandie: 6th, Catalunya: 9th.

In exactly what universe is Kelderman's 2024 better, with just Suisse: 9th and Paris Nice: 8th?
His 2023? Suisse: 4th. That's all.
2022? No top 10.
2021 Tour: 5th, Dauphiné: 4th, Romandie: 10th, Catalunya: 5th.
2020 Giro: 3rd, TA: 4th.
2019 Vuelta: 7th.
2018 Vuelta: 10th, Suisse: 5th.
2017 Vuelta: 4th, Romandie: 9th.
2016 Suisse: 8th.
2015 Catalunya: 9th.
2014 Giro: 7th, Dauphiné: 4th.
2013: Romandie: 5th.
2012: Dauphiné: 8th.

So, tell me, how many seasons out of a 13 year career do you think are better? I count 3. Maybe 4. My original statement, that Uijtdebroeks 2023 would already rate among the better seasons in Kelderman's and Kruijswijk's careers, stands.

 

[Squire]

I just don't see world class rider in Cian at all. I see a very good rider, but with a limited skillset centered around high mountain climbing and not much else, so unless youre just flat out the best, youre not gonna win very much. Kruijswijk did that in the 2016 Giro that he should have won, and Mas has three top 2s and is looking to be the best rider this year. Not bad company, but I think Mas has more to his game than Cian since he's actually very good at shorter efforts as well in peak shape and can go mano-a-mano with Roglic (as we have seen countless of times, although never winning). Add that to an insane talent pool at the moment

This can all be trained to an extent. Sure, he'll never be Valverde, but look at how Remco has improved his explosivity for example. Riders tend to get more well-rounded as they mature. Even Kruiswijk was more of an all-rounder than he gets credit for when he was at his best.

 

[Mako]

Clearly, this can't be normal to drop already. Visma-LAB needs to take that poor guy out of the race. This can't be good for him in the short and long run

 

[Keldergoat]

I just admire with how much confidence you spout absolute bollocks.

OMG, thank you! Why didn't i think of that! The CQ ranking! It could have been so easy to end debates about Evenepoel being better than Van der Poel, Vingegaard, Roglic and everyone else except Pogacar. The CQ ranking, of course!

Now, back in the real world, the one where we look at races and results, Uijtdebroeks' 2023 season had:
Vuelta: 8th, Suisse: 7th, Romandie: 6th, Catalunya: 9th.

In exactly what universe is Kelderman's 2024 better, with just Suisse: 9th and Paris Nice: 8th?
His 2023? Suisse: 4th. That's all.
2022? No top 10.
2021 Tour: 5th, Dauphiné: 4th, Romandie: 10th, Catalunya: 5th.
2020 Giro: 3rd, TA: 4th.
2019 Vuelta: 7th.
2018 Vuelta: 10th, Suisse: 5th.
2017 Vuelta: 4th, Romandie: 9th.
2016 Suisse: 8th.
2015 Catalunya: 9th.
2014 Giro: 7th, Dauphiné: 4th.
2013: Romandie: 5th.
2012: Dauphiné: 8th.

So, tell me, how many seasons out of a 13 year career do you think are better? I count 3. Maybe 4. My original statement, that Uijtdebroeks 2023 would already rate among the better seasons in Kelderman's and Kruijswijk's careers, stands.

I'm always baffled, actually it is with some admiration I observe with how much confidence you spout nonsense. You just smoothly omit plenty of WT top-10s of Kelderman at UAE Tour, Poland, Tour Down Under, Eneco Tour etc. Plus, I fully agree with you on your CQ ranking slander, I also think it is not the best indicator of how great one's career is, but ignoring cycling quotients actually favours riders like Kelderman. Take last year f.i., where he had a crucial role as a domestique for Vingegaard in winning the Tour, didn't give him any points but did show how decent of a cyclist he was. I fully agree with @hrotha on this one.