Teams & Riders Cian Uijtdebroeks - From the wetlands to the top of cycling

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Cian was probably pain in the butt for mechanics. Complained all the time about his setup and he threw them publicly under the bus for not preparing his bikes right. A first year pro with no result by the way.
So i would bet if there was any Whatsapp chat group created, it was by supporting staff having enough of his ***.
Could be true. But I think you got your timelines mixed up. It's not easy keeping track of it as *** is flying all over the place in this thread.
 
To be fair, I quite admire Uijtdebroeks' achievement at the Vuelta even more knowing that he was a loner in a team that didn't give him a lot of support mentally in his first Grand Tour. I think he really didn't play it handy in the media the weeks after, constantly moaning about material, but you have to give it to the guy, with some better support and team surrounding him he can become a very serious GT contender. Someone like Mathieu Heijboer will be thrilled to start working on his TT capabilities.
 
The same journalist, in the same podcast that brought the news of the bullying. Article in Dutch:


Thanks i read it. Now i understand that basically the whole case, one sided contract termination, is built around accusations of bullying. The whole case will hence be presented in front of UCI commission and best to wait for the outcome. As i said earlier. There likely the evidence will be presented and the decision will be made. As we don't posses them, best to discuss the outcome. This should hence be resolved in December.

As for the two other teams. So both were prepared to offer a million. Bora agreed and Cian refused. Visma offered 100k and Bora refused. After Cian terminated his contract with Bora, due to alleged bullying and Visma signed him for free, without reaching an agreement with Bora. And obviously in the middle of all of this his new agent was involved.

So the first question i have is why was Visma not prepared to offer the same compensation for Cian to Bora then the two other teams have? Was it due to Visma and the new agent wanting to punish Bora for bullying? Or maybe due to bigger cut involved for all if they cut out Bora? But this latter part is in my opinion a bit naive. Believing they can pull that off. So i guess it's due to punishing Bora for bullying Cian.

OK then, lets see if something is there. As the last thing i would like is for Rogla to end up with bullies. Lets find the bullies then. If we won't find any, then 1 milion it is, from Visma to Bora and a fine of 600k, for conducting negotiations while still under contract.
 
So basically Remco can go to another team if he feels like it, without compensation. Due to Patrick being a bully.

But still i don't get it on why Visma believes they don't have to reach an agreement with Bora. Or on how can they believe Cian has a valid contract with them. Making statements like that. Even taking Cian to their training camp. Considering not even UCI has made a decision yet. They are basically acting like bullies. But OK. Lets see first what the evidence say, about bullying, regarding Bora.
 
So basically Remco can go to another team if he feels like it, without compensation. Due to Patrick being a bully.

But still i don't get it on why Visma believes they don't have to reach an agreement with Bora. Or on how can they believe Cian has a valid contract with them. Making statements like that. Even taking Cian to their training camp. Considering not even UCI has made a decision yet. They are basically acting like bullies. But OK. Lets see first what the evidence say, about bullying, regarding Bora.
How many times are you going to repeat yourself? No one on this forum knows sh*t about what is going on.
 
knowing that he was a loner in a team that didn't give him a lot of support mentally in his first Grand Tour.
That‘s exactly what Cian wants to make us think.

I have followed Bora since the times as a Continental Team, NetApp. I have followed Ralph‘s teams since the end of the 1990ies, and once rode an U13/U15 race against two young guys (brothers) from Ralph‘s team then, called „Quest - Ralph Denk“. I grew up in northern Bavaria; Ralph was the leading man for the juniors in Bavaria, back then. He was well known, and I could never have imagined his teams would win the Giro and Roubaix.

I can absolutely never, never, never ever believe what Uijtdebroeks now claims, about his Vuelta support. Never ever.

Over these years and decades, Ralph apparently only once did not stick to his word: that was when he promised Ackermann that Ackermann a 100% certain would give his Tour debut at Bora. Ackermann afaik never rode the Tour for Bora, then.

Ralph‘s pride is and always has been developing young, hopeful men into successful athletes, who can make a solid living from their sport, from road cycling racing. He wears his moustache though it‘s uncool, and has no problem standing in the background. He is totally honest, and knows what pro cycling is all about.

He is absolutely loyal: see Kämna. This big talent had mental struggles, just when he was already at a well paid Bora contract. Ralph had the patience, and cared for Lennard as if he was his own son. Ralph‘s aim was to let Kämna find pleasure in life again. No matter how long it took. Everyone knows what Kämna achieved after his comeback. Same loyalty, Ralph showed to Buchmann. Cesare Benedetti - Ralph asks him every year if he wants to stay pro. Benedetti still wants to - so no question, Ralph keeps him at Bora.

As Bora grew more successful, at the latest shortly before Sagan arrived, Ralph recognized the need to buy „big names“. Sagan, Hindley, Vlasov, Higuita all were already big stars before they joined Bora.

Ralph‘s core competence, however, still is development. His team developed from a Bavarian junior team to a high end WT team. His pleasure is to offer talented Espoir athletes the possibility to develop into successful professionals.

I am totally sure that Ralph and his closest noticed Uijtdebroeks‘ huge talent very early. And they certainly were very proud and excited to have Uijtdebroeks at Auto Eder and later Bora. Their structures were and are perfect to let Uijtdebroeks grow healthily. And it worked very, very well until now.

Also this 2023 Vuelta was absolutely beyond expectations for Bora and Uijtdebroeks. Actually, there were not really any expectations. Just give him the chance to get to know a three week bike race. No matter the results.

I never, never ever believe that Bora did treat Cian anything but perfectly during this three weeks of the Vuelta. He was their pride and their hope for the future. I am sure exactly the opposite was the case: after noticing Cian was so strong, they certainly cut off some support for Vlasov, to guarantee a better support to Cian (which he of course deserved).

Cian was a top personality on the team, though he‘s young. A rider about whose GT debut Ralph certainly cared personally. Eisel might have been DS, but main decisions certainly came from Ralph.

Ralph would never ever have let it happen that Cian would have become an isolated loner within the team. Just the opposite might be true: all officials in Raubling (team base) and within the staff in Spain certainly were full of pride, joy and excitement to witness Cian fighting for Top-10 overall. Certainly they all worked 110% to offer Cian the best support even possible.

The thing, imho, why Cian denies this, now, is: Cian is full of self confidence, knows how strong he is, and which results he can achieve already. So his personal entourage (manager, family, other influencers) might have told him which amount of money he could earn - now already - at another team. And because - I can understand him - Cian immediately wants to earn as much money as even possible, he immediately wants to leave Bora.

Because, this is still Ralph‘s and Bora Hansgrohe‘s one and only problem: they can pay their riders well, and guarantee safe payment, month after month, year after year. But they cannot pay what Visma, Ineos, UAE, Bahrain can pay.

It‘s all about the money. But Cian, do not forget you still might have to look these people in the eyes, at the races, next year and beyond. These people who treated you like their own son, and gave 110% just to offer you the best conditions they could offer you to guarantee you a perfect start to WT racing.
 
@Skijumper Roglic fan

OK so you are a bit sceptical about some systematic bulling going on in the team. And for that to be valid grounds for contract termination.

So what is your take on Visma refusing to pay a fair compensation for Cian and believing they can get away with it? The reason i ask is due to others accusing me when thinking out loud. And you obvious don't have much problem with that. Just as i don't. So fire it away. I am genuinely interested in getting to the bottom of this. Is it due to believing look we gave you Roglič and hence we are entitled to it. Greed of new agent ... Something else. As OK if Cian was bullied and that gets determined and sanctioned. But in the end what does Visma and his agent have to do with all this. Alleged bullying. In my opinion nothing. That is they must reach an agreement with Bora or they have nothing.
 
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That‘s exactly what Cian wants to make us think.

I have followed Bora since the times as a Continental Team, NetApp. I have followed Ralph‘s teams since the end of the 1990ies, and once rode an U13/U15 race against two young guys (brothers) from Ralph‘s team then, called „Quest - Ralph Denk“. I grew up in northern Bavaria; Ralph was the leading man for the juniors in Bavaria, back then. He was well known, and I could never have imagined his teams would win the Giro and Roubaix.

I can absolutely never, never, never ever believe what Uijtdebroeks now claims, about his Vuelta support. Never ever.

Over these years and decades, Ralph apparently only once did not stick to his word: that was when he promised Ackermann that Ackermann a 100% certain would give his Tour debut at Bora. Ackermann afaik never rode the Tour for Bora, then.

Ralph‘s pride is and always has been developing young, hopeful men into successful athletes, who can make a solid living from their sport, from road cycling racing. He wears his moustache though it‘s uncool, and has no problem standing in the background. He is totally honest, and knows what pro cycling is all about.

He is absolutely loyal: see Kämna. This big talent had mental struggles, just when he was already at a well paid Bora contract. Ralph had the patience, and cared for Lennard as if he was his own son. Ralph‘s aim was to let Kämna find pleasure in life again. No matter how long it took. Everyone knows what Kämna achieved after his comeback. Same loyalty, Ralph showed to Buchmann. Cesare Benedetti - Ralph asks him every year if he wants to stay pro. Benedetti still wants to - so no question, Ralph keeps him at Bora.

As Bora grew more successful, at the latest shortly before Sagan arrived, Ralph recognized the need to buy „big names“. Sagan, Hindley, Vlasov, Higuita all were already big stars before they joined Bora.

Ralph‘s core competence, however, still is development. His team developed from a Bavarian junior team to a high end WT team. His pleasure is to offer talented Espoir athletes the possibility to develop into successful professionals.

I am totally sure that Ralph and his closest noticed Uijtdebroeks‘ huge talent very early. And they certainly were very proud and excited to have Uijtdebroeks at Auto Eder and later Bora. Their structures were and are perfect to let Uijtdebroeks grow healthily. And it worked very, very well until now.

Also this 2023 Vuelta was absolutely beyond expectations for Bora and Uijtdebroeks. Actually, there were not really any expectations. Just give him the chance to get to know a three week bike race. No matter the results.

I never, never ever believe that Bora did treat Cian anything but perfectly during this three weeks of the Vuelta. He was their pride and their hope for the future. I am sure exactly the opposite was the case: after noticing Cian was so strong, they certainly cut off some support for Vlasov, to guarantee a better support to Cian (which he of course deserved).

Cian was a top personality on the team, though he‘s young. A rider about whose GT debut Ralph certainly cared personally. Eisel might have been DS, but main decisions certainly came from Ralph.

Ralph would never ever have let it happen that Cian would have become an isolated loner within the team. Just the opposite might be true: all officials in Raubling (team base) and within the staff in Spain certainly were full of pride, joy and excitement to witness Cian fighting for Top-10 overall. Certainly they all worked 110% to offer Cian the best support even possible.

The thing, imho, why Cian denies this, now, is: Cian is full of self confidence, knows how strong he is, and which results he can achieve already. So his personal entourage (manager, family, other influencers) might have told him which amount of money he could earn - now already - at another team. And because - I can understand him - Cian immediately wants to earn as much money as even possible, he immediately wants to leave Bora.

Because, this is still Ralph‘s and Bora Hansgrohe‘s one and only problem: they can pay their riders well, and guarantee safe payment, month after month, year after year. But they cannot pay what Visma, Ineos, UAE, Bahrain can pay.

It‘s all about the money. But Cian, do not forget you still might have to look these people in the eyes, at the races, next year and beyond. These people who treated you like their own son, and gave 110% just to offer you the best conditions they could offer you to guarantee you a perfect start to WT racing.
Poor Bora can buy Roglic out of his contract and offer him a better salary than Jumbo could :)

You seem to do a lot of assuming based on the fact that Ralph Denk is a nice guy. Which he probably is, I don't know. But at the same time you're making Uijtdebroeks out to be this liar who is only in it for the money. Then let me ask you: why didn't he just go to Ineos or Trek, who have more money to spend than Visma do at this point, and who could actually pay the one million that Bora wanted? If it's purely about the money, that would have been the way easier route. The way it's going now he's opening himself up to a lot of hate from people like yourself, which I'm sure he'd rather have avoided.
 

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If both teams won't reach an agreement, then as far as i understand, article i mentioned above, there is a council that will decide, lead by a Belgian, on which contract is binding and hence for which team Cian will be registered to ride for in the 2024 season. If for example Bora would not agree with the decision, then they can go to court, likely Austria, labour law. Seeking compensation. If the council decides in favour of Bora. Then i guess, considering on how things stand ATM, Cian will train with Visma and race for Bora in 2024 season.
Why Austria?
 
Then let me ask you: why didn't he just go to Ineos or Trek, who have more money to spend than Visma do at this point, and who could actually pay the one million that Bora wanted?

Yeah but then again why didn't Visma pay that million and this whole saga would never have happened? Why do they believe they can sign Cian for free? Without reaching an agreement with Bora first? Considering Roglič transfer was a exemplary one. Why now this ***? I just don't get it. What is a million for a team like Visma. Especially as they plan to sign long term contract with Cian and do have the money.
 
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Thanks i read it. Now i understand that basically the whole case, one sided contract termination, is built around accusations of bullying. The whole case will hence be presented in front of UCI commission and best to wait for the outcome. As i said earlier. There likely the evidence will be presented and the decision will be made. As we don't posses them, best to discuss the outcome. This should hence be resolved in December.

As for the two other teams. So both were prepared to offer a million. Bora agreed and Cian refused. Visma offered 100k and Bora refused. After Cian terminated his contract with Bora, due to alleged bullying and Visma signed him for free, without reaching an agreement with Bora. And obviously in the middle of all of this his new agent was involved.

So the first question i have is why was Visma not prepared to offer the same compensation for Cian to Bora then the two other teams have? Was it due to Visma and the new agent wanting to punish Bora for bullying? Or maybe due to bigger cut involved for all if they cut out Bora? But this latter part is in my opinion a bit naive. Believing they can pull that off. So i guess it's due to punishing Bora for bullying Cian.

OK then, lets see if something is there. As the last thing i would like is for Rogla to end up with bullies. Lets find the bullies then. If we won't find any, then 1 milion it is, from Visma to Bora and a fine of 600k, for conducting negotiations while still under contract.
"Bullying?!!!!" A prima donna rookie doesn't like his bikes, throws fits in the press and wants a different deal? A professional DS would most certainly explain that you: ride the kit you're given and like it, be nice in the press and quit yer bitchn!
He may be Belgian but he's not yet Remco. Hell, Remco had to get crashed near to death, pressured relentlessly by media and suffer recovery to be tested that much and he's grown to Man from it.
 
Why Austria?
This was in the article that he linked a couple of pages back (translated)

The Bora Hansgrohe team has its riders employed as part of the marketing department of the main sponsor, which is based in Niederndorf, Austria, right on the Bavarian-Tyrolean border. Therefore, any legal dispute falls under Austrian law in the context of European Union labor law.
 
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"Bullying?!!!!" A prima donna rookie doesn't like his bikes, throws fits in the press and wants a different deal?
Who does he think he is, Remco?

I am OK if bullying occurred to be sanctioned. If it was systematic for contract termination to be valid. Still i find it a bit strange that Visma is claiming they signed Cian before any such decision about the contract termination was made by UCI. And now Cian even trains with Visma. If he was bullied OK. He is empowered now. Still. What's up with Visma? In my opinion they are acting a bit strange.
 
I am OK if bullying occurred to be sanctioned. If it was systematic for contract termination to be valid. Still i find it a bit strange that Visma is claiming they signed Cian before any such decision about the contract termination was made by UCI. And now Cian even trains with Visma. If he was bullied OK. He is empowered now. Still. What's up with Visma? In my opinion they are acting a bit strange.
A temperamental junior from Belgium on a German team....what could go wrong?
 
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So based on all the discussion this is my take on it. Will compare notes with UCI decision.

Cian. Likely some bullying was involved. A bit sceptical if it was systematic or the regular ***. Systematic bullying would likely show more. Still he doesn't feel comfortable in this team any more and will leave. Here i support sanctioning based on the severity if it happened.

Bora. Denies any out of the ordinary bullying, says it was supportive environment and ultimately was OK with Cian leaving for a compensation of one million. Two teams agreeing with such compensation but Cian refusing.

Agent. Like an angel sent from the sky. It's only about money here so not much else to say about it. Did his job (or did he).

Visma. Here i don't quite get it. They feel they are entitled to get Cian for free or at best for peanuts. This likely means they feel Bora got Rogla cheap. And now i guess the dilemma for Visma is if we give one third of the money back, for Cian, then what. If Cian turns out to be future (GT) winner, great, if on the other hand that doesn't happen and on top of that Rogla does beat us at the Tour. Then we kind of blew it and got 2 millions for it. A small portion of their annual budget. Still i feel that here is the real solution to the whole problem. Visma will need to reach deeper in their pocket and to buy out Cian. All other options circulating ATM are in my opinion not all that realistic.
 
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All of this sounds very teenager problem solving. If you are being bullied, you have a chain of command, go to team manager or over their head, state your case and wait to see if they have an agreeable solution.
You can't have sock puppet conversations were you decide how people will react if given a problem to solve. This sounds more and more like some kind of a contract wildcard, team management and ownership are going to say, first we have heard of it, here's how we solve bullying. But if the team wasn't given a chance to solve the problem, guy needs to give them a shot.
If this is an effective technique to break a pro cycling contract, anyone at anytime can just say, I am bullied, feel uncomfortable and I am switching teams.
 
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All of this sounds very teenager problem solving. If you are being bullied, you have a chain of command, go to team manager or over their head, state your case and wait to see if they have an agreeable solution.
You can't have sock puppet conversations were you decide how people will react if given a problem to solve. This sounds more and more like some kind of a contract wildcard, team management and ownership are going to say, first we have heard of it, here's how we solve bullying. But if the team wasn't given a chance to solve the problem, guy needs to give them a shot.
If this is an effective technique to break a pro cycling contract, anyone at anytime can just say, I am bullied, feel uncomfortable and I am switching teams.
Maybe his agent has been paying attention to US college sports.
 
Over these years and decades, Ralph apparently only once did not stick to his word: that was when he promised Ackermann that Ackermann a 100% certain would give his Tour debut at Bora. Ackermann afaik never rode the Tour for Bora, then.
He also didn’t held his word towards Lefevere by approaching Evenepoel before the discussed deadline. Let’s not pretend Ralph is holier than thou
 
It's kind of ridiculous, all these strong opinions about a case we still know not that much about. As if we're talking about 8 year old kids who use 'bullying' as a motivation for their own misbehavior. As if Cian's entourage doesn't realize this claim requires enough arguments to be taken seriously.

Anyway. From a new article in Het Nieuwsblad:

Cian Uijtdebroeks' breach of contract has the entire peloton in its grip during this slow period. To such an extent that international media are also looking for the reasons for the divorce battle that has been taking place since Saturday. More and more details are being released into the world. The conclusion: Uijtdebroeks' decision was not made overnight.

His frustrations had been piling up at BORA-hansgrohe for longer than the known incidents during the Vuelta and Chrono des Nations. She managed to keep Uijtdebroeks to herself for a long time. The orchestrated attack by teammate Vlasov that cost him his seventh place in the Vuelta and the inadequate equipment in the Chrono des Nations were rather the straws that broke the camel's back. The dissatisfaction with that time trial bike is not just a fluke. BORA-hansgrohe did not have its modified time trial bike brought over from the Vuelta for the Chrono des Nations, but a different model. When Uijtdebroeks had to switch to his spare bike, he noticed that it did not have the required resistance. He had asked for a 56 as a cover page and his spare bike still had a 54, which can be a big loss in a time trial. A lack of professionalism within the team that led to anger among Uijtdebroeks because he saw that time trial as an important test with a view to 2024.

These are the latest facts, but certainly not the only ones. Uijtdebroeks had his fill of it at least six months ago. During the Tour of Switzerland - where he finished seventh - his mind is no longer on a fourth season with BORA. More than a month ago, his decision was made that he did not want to continue with the team.

Alleged WhatsApp group
The underlying cause is now coming to light little by little. Uijtdebroeks is a loner in the German team. Teammates look down on him. His drive and fanaticism are not well received by a number of teammates and they show this. According to columnist Thijs Zonneveld of Algemeen Dagblad in the Netherlands, this even led to a WhatsApp group in which his teammates made fun of him.

Jean-Pierre Heynderickx, team leader at the time, says the following about the attack that Vlasov made in the final phase of the Vuelta to steal seventh place from teammate Uijtdebroeks. “I don't know if this was decided in the team leader's car. I was behind the break-away myself, so I didn't get to experience it. It was certainly not discussed in the preparation for that stage. There was a discussion about it afterwards, but I don't know what exactly was said there.” During the Vuelta, Uijtdebroeks could count on the support of his German teammates Buchmann and Koch, with whom he also regularly shares a room, but all other riders seem to be in Vlasov's camp. Nico Denz even paces Vlasov when he places his attack. This emphasizes that the Russian did not launch an impulsive attack, but had discussed with Denz in advance what they would do.

According to our information, there was indeed 'intimidation' at BORA with Uijtdebroeks as the target. Despite his strong performance, BORA-hansgrohe also systematically refused all interview requests for Uijtdebroeks. Did the team fear that he would express his displeasure in the media? The fact is that Uijtdebroeks only spoke to the media briefly in front of the camera for almost a year.

1 million euros
If we place team boss Ralph Denk's statements from about a month ago in the context of current developments, they take on a different connotation. The general manager of BORA-hansgrohe said at the time: “We would like to keep Cian, but our pockets are not as deep as those of some other teams.” Or again: “I respect contracts and we haven't officially received an offer for him yet.” Didn't he just put Uijtdebroeks on the market again? BORA-hansgrohe's pockets may not be that deep, but to declare that at a time when they just completed a multi-million deal with 34-year-old Primoz Roglic is hollow to say the least. At BORA-hansgrohe they already realize at that moment that the shelf life of Uijtdebroeks has passed within the team. Manager Denk wants to catch money for him. The team was counting on a lump sum payment of 1 million euros, an amount that does not correspond at all to Uijtdebroeks' remaining annual salary.

An important piece to me:

As team leader, Heynderickx says that he never really witnessed inappropriate situations towards Uijtdebroeks or intolerable behavior from the rider himself. He does stand up for the young round talent. “You always have riders with different characters in a team,” he says. “Cian always behaved correctly. He is very driven and does everything to achieve his goals. I don't know if that didn't go down so well with other riders, I certainly didn't notice it. Cian did not avoid conflict situations, but that is also the way it should be for leaders within a team. He always knew how to keep his cool. What is coming out now is unfortunate and I can only hope that it is not true. And above all that this has no consequences for Cian's career, because I am firmly convinced that he will still show a lot," Heynderickx concludes.

Uijtdebroeks himself seems to have put the whole affair behind him. On Tuesday he joined his new team Visma-Lease a Bike at a training camp in Dénia, Spain. Since his contract only starts on January 1, he still trained in a neutral, black outfit, but he was already allowed to test ride his new bicycle from Cérvelo, sponsor of Visma-Lease a Bike.