Contador blasts LA

[Azdak6]

Two points: (1) he was responding to a question and (2) contador gives lots of interviews, not English-speaking so he doesn't get as wide of coverage as Lance, so I think you are putting too much weight on the comment. As for thanking his teammates, who says that he didn't? I would assume he did so at the dinner Saturday or talked to them each personally. I'm curious why you suggest that he didn't? And did Lance thank his teammates? I don't even recall him thanking Contador

We still don't know the whole behind the scenes story, and perhaps we never will. I personally have trouble accepting simple black/white explanations when human behavior is involved.

I would still like to know what it is/was about Contador that led to such "incompatibilities" between he and Bruyneel, or between he and Armstrong. Dont' get me wrong, I don't dismiss Armstrong's personal shortcomings, but I think an explanation that lays all the blame at his/JBs feet, or claims they "conspired" against AC is just too simplistic. There have been a number of comments from other teammates and other cyclists hinting of some issues with Contador--once again, I think it is overly simplistic to just dismiss them because they are thought to be friends of Armstrong.

I have been in work situations that became pretty poisonous--once a level of trust was broken, every word, every action, no matter how trivial or innocent, was interpreted in the worst possible way ever. It's not unheard of for such a situation to occur in professional sports--Phil Jackson vs Jerry Krause in Chicago, Shaq vs Kobe in LA. But it doesn't make anyone look good.

 

[*G*K*S*]

Lance was perfect in the race. Didn't undermine Alberto once. Made no mistakes.

lol.

Get back under your bridge, troll.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Lance's first job was to protect Alberto. Frank is no threat to Alberto. He admits he could not go with Frank's attack. Not much later he tried to attack Wiggo but Wiggo responded so Lance did the correct teammate move and called off until he could find a time and place to get free with no counterattack. His concern for his own finish came only after he'd met his team obligation.

Exactly. It was no mistake to not chase Franck at that moment.

 

[Hugh Januss]

AC's mistake was that he dropped AK. If he did not attack LA would have been able to catch up to them, then it would have been 3 Astana vs 2 Saxo Bank riders to the finish.

Then that would have been an ideal opportunity for a 1-2-3 Astana position!

OK I am gonna have to call shenanigans on this one. At the point when AC attacked Kloden (let's call it by effect and not intent) LA could not have caught them without a motor. The only way LA could have ever caught up was if he didn't have his head up his own a$$ when FS jumped them. If he could have stuck with FS then one of two things would have happened. Either FS slows down again or FS drags LA up to the other 3, either case results in a numbers advantage for Astana.
The blame for Astana not going 1-2-3 (other than obviously the strength of AS) is #1 Levi crashing #2 Lance letting Frank ride up to the 3 by himself #3 (equal) bad ITT by LA and to a lesser extent Kloden, AC's silly attack which dropped Kloden.
That is how I saw it anyway. Maybe there was more than one TDF televised.

 

[hfer07]

AC's mistake was that he dropped AK. If he did not attack LA would have been able to catch up to them, then it would have been 3 Astana vs 2 Saxo Bank riders to the finish.

Then that would have been an ideal opportunity for a 1-2-3 Astana position!

AC's mistake was that he dropped AK. If he did not attack LA would have been able to catch up to them, then it would have been 3 Astana vs 2 Saxo Bank riders to the finish.

Then that would have been an ideal opportunity for a 1-2-3 Astana position!

just a remainder:

Final Classification:
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 85:48:35
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:04:11
3 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 0:05:24
4 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream 0:06:01
5 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:06:04
6 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 0:06:42
Stage 20:
1 Juan Manuel Garate Cepa (Spa) Rabobank 4:39:21
2 Tony Martin (Ger) Team Columbia - HTC 0:00:03
3 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:38
4 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana
5 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 0:00:41
6 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:43
10 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream 0:01:03
11 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Silence - Lotto 0:01:39
12 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 0:01:42
Stage 18
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 0:48:31
2 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:03
6 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream 0:00:42
9 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 0:00:53
16 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 0:01:29
Stage 17
1 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 4:53:54
2 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana st
3 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank st
4 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0:02:18
5 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 0:02:18
6 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 0:02:27

CAN EVERYONE MAKE THE GODDAMN MATH AND REALIZE IN WHICH STAGE DID
kLODEN "REALLY" LOST HIS PODIUM CHANCES ONCE FOR ALL?
AND LASTLY: I HAVEN'T HEARD FROM KLODEN HIMSELF B!TCHING ABOUT NOT MAKING THE PODIUM-SO WHY LANCE FANSBOYS ARE ENTITLE TO DO SO?
JUST SO F*CKING SICK OF STUPIDITY LIKE THAT.....

 

[fulcrum]

Yeah, Lance never road tempo for AC. So what? He was a GC rider.

So what? Well, Lance had publicly stated that he would have no problem what so ever working for Contador if the road determined that AC was the strongest rider.

That's one of the conditions he used to parachute his backstabbing ass into Astana and make sure Contador was not leaving.

Now, can you tell me how many teams in the peloton had a diva show up from retirement and upset the entire make and balance of the team? Promising this and that and not delivering? Oh don't bother... I'll give you the answer: ONE, only Astana.

 

[Anonymous]

The two riders from Saxo Bank. You know Andy and Frank Schleck? Those two guys trying to win the Tour de France? The same two he attacked on Arcalis and Verbier. In each case to gain time. Apparently, I think this is an unconfirmed rumor so don't quote me on this, but apparently to win the overall you have to complete the entire 21 stages faster than any of the other racers, including your teammates. Hopefully that helps.

Ok then. Your tactics are there for everybody to read. Tell me, why did AC not attack Andy on Ventoux??

 

[fulcrum]

Well mate LA certainly shows a lot more class than you do. You spend all day slagging the guy off and then have the cheek to actually criticise his behaviour! You're a joke.

It makes me laugh that clowns like you can call him on the most minor comment and yet you feel vindicated in calling him all the names under the sun!

The fact is that LA is a 7 time winner and you unfortunately are far short of that.

Nice try. Directing attacks towards me is your only resort when you can no longer defend your little heroes actions. Want a little cheese with that whine?

 

[Carboncrank]

lol.

Get back under your bridge, troll.

typical response from someone that has nothing to say.

put up or shut up.

 

[autologous]

So Lance is supposed to bridge up to a teamate up the road, who's in yellow, dragging GC threats with him? That would be about as smart as AC blowing up his only help. Lance coming to a near stop forces Wiggo and/or Frank Schleck to the front. Wiggo had the responsibiliy to follow AC and Klodi, not Lance. At that point Astana is 1, 2 on the road in GC. What Lance did is what he should have done.
You and I have very different views of bike racing tactics. I appreciate your take but I don't agree with your conclusions.

how about Lance's conclusions after the stage :

“I got caught out tactically a bit. I didn’t follow the accelerations and then tactically I have to stay with other teams,” Armstrong said. “I was stuck there with Wiggins and I couldn’t go until the end when it was steeper. In hindsight, I probably should have gone with the earlier accelerations.”

seems like he disagrees with you, about what he should have done. He might have a different view of bike racing tactics than you.

But what would he know, eh? A forum poster that just knows what others are thinking and what their motivations are has so much more credibility.

 

[LugHugger]

My opinion is irrelevant here. Right or wrong, omerta is widely accepted within the profession as being good for the sport.

This goes way beyond the riders and affects everyone in the sport. You don't even hear Phil and Paul talk openly and fairly about how widespread doping is in the sport. They all believe in omerta, at least to some degree. Lance merely defended the belief which is widely believed to be true within his profession, and, AFAIK, may very well be true.

Honest talk about doping in cycling, especially in public, is not necessarily good for the sport of cycling. The argument can be made that it's very bad for the sport.

You are right. Your opinion is irrelevant.

 

[Anonymous]

Of course he did. Lance attacked him on that stage. If he had ridden to protect his teammate's GC position, Azevedo could have finished on the podium

You are clearly having fun with this as your comments just keep getting further and further out there.

 

[fulcrum]

When AC attacks randomly how can lance work for him? He did pace him up thte mountains for a while.

Lying in this forum is not going to change reality. Lance never paced AC up the mountains a la domestique. Despite having AMPLE opportunities to do so. And as a weak factless fanboy you are, you won't be able to produce any evidence to back that point.

 

[LugHugger]

Perhaps this would be fine if it were just AC vs. Lance. However, isn't this the same sort of nonesense that AC spat out about having Levi Leipheimer finish a very close second in last year's Vuelta?

Let's also back up and remember that Bruyneel stated from the very beginning that the team would ride for teh strongest rider. So, what happens when AC is clearly the stronger of teh two riders? Lance rode for AC and publically praised AC. Yet the day after the tour, not even 24 hours after winning the biggest bike race on Earth, AC is cutting into yet another team mate whose strength and determination are not natural for a 'Team Captain' to have to deal with.

So, exactly where was AC's pick? Where was the guy that bumped Horner off the Astana roster?

Well, it looks like AC will form his own team around himself next year, and instead of surrounding himself with riders nearly as strong and determined as himself, he will surround himself with weaklings.

It'll be interesting to see him pull time out on a TTT with a weak team ala Cadel Evans. It'll be interesting to see him defend in the mountains without any team mates ala Floyd.

Remember, AC won every single one of his Grand Tours with the Astana machine and Johan Bruyneel behind him. As a minimum, some of the stronger riders from Team Astana will be leaving for Radio Shack and other teams, and instead of Lance, next year AC, if he stays, will have Vino to deal with.

No doubt Vino, opininated, arrogant, and fiercely determined in his own right will wind up being yet another person that AC, "Doesn't respect as a person and never will."

As for the rumor that AC is headed to Garmin, I hope it isn't true. Bradley Wiggins and Christian Vandevelde may likewise find themselves maligned for being 'too good' and not supporting their 'Captain'.

Whatever happens next year, the Tour is sure to be interesting. Maybe next year, AC will learn the difference between being surrounded by the strongest riders on Earth vs. those who fawn over you but aren't there when you need them.

Maybe next year, if AC wins, let's hope that the first thing he does won't be to bash a team mate. If he loses, lets hope he doesn't blame his team mates for that as well. I have a feeling that the comments Ac made yesterday will be ones he comes to regret far sooner than he may realize.

Much of this I agree with. Good post. Personally, I think that Garmin would suit Contador down to the ground. Strong TTT skills and VdV and Wiggins are strong riders but not strong enough like Armstrong and Kloden for him to feel threatened.

 

[UpTheRoad]

typical response from someone that has nothing to say.

put up or shut up.

Did your post require a serious response? Do you really believe allowing Frank Schleck to bridge to an isolated Andy Schleck without marking him was smart racing and not a tactical error?

 

[Jayarbie]

OK I am gonna have to call shenanigans on this one. At the point when AC attacked Kloden (let's call it by effect and not intent) LA could not have caught them without a motor. The only way LA could have ever caught up was if he didn't have his head up his own a$$ when FS jumped them. If he could have stuck with FS then one of two things would have happened. Either FS slows down again or FS drags LA up to the other 3, either case results in a numbers advantage for Astana.
The blame for Astana not going 1-2-3 (other than obviously the strength of AS) is #1 Levi crashing #2 Lance letting Frank ride up to the 3 by himself #3 (equal) bad ITT by LA and to a lesser extent Kloden, AC's silly attack which dropped Kloden.
That is how I saw it anyway. Maybe there was more than one TDF televised.

No, you saw the real Tour and you are exactly right. Armstrong commited a huge tactical blunder by losing track of Frank. He was far too worried about making Wiggins come through and do pace that, at the moment Frank attacked, Armstrong was BRAKING. Letting Frank get up the road without him was one of the only ways that Contador actually could have LOST the Tour. Once the Schlecks were reunited, if they had realized that Kloden was in the red earlier, they could have dropped Kloden and then attacked and attacked and attacked further from the cummit to try to get Contador to crack. That's the only way Contador could have even possibly lost the Tour. Would he have cracked under the 1-2 punch? There's no evidence he would have, but there's ZERO chance of it happening if Frank doesn't get away from Armstrong in the first place. Fortunately for Astana, it wasn't clear that Kloden was useless until too close to the summit and there was no danger anymore.

The important thing to remember is that Frank cannot drag Armstrong to Andy. Frank dragging Armstrong back to Andy costs Andy a place in the GC. Therefore, Frank will stop any attack if Lance sticks to his wheel, and all Armstrong has to do is make sure he marks BOTH Wiggins and Frank to keep Contador out of danger. By dicking around with Wiggins, he failed to do that, and it put Contador in (potential) danger. It was a huge mistake.

Look, I've been a fan of Armstrong for years, since he won Worlds (93?). I followed his career from there to winning wire-to-wire after Casartelli died to dropping out and the subsequent cancer in 96 to his comeback inthe Vuelta in 98 to the 7 Tour titles to this comeback. He has always been one of my favorite cyclists. However, you need real serious kool aid to fail to admit he commited a serious error on that stage.

Also, as for the current bickering, I obviously don't know what went on behind the scenes and I wish they would both just let it die, but to me, it seems that Contador has conducted himself with more class than Armstrong.

 

[Publicus]

Remember that at this point they Astana was concerned of Wiggins because he is the dark horse here. LA did Astana (and Contador) a favor by marking Wiggins and putting distance between him and AC.

LA already knew AC was stronger than him, and he knows he can gain back on FS on the ITT; thus, with this he helped AC eliminate BW. That's the smart teammate in LA!

I remember precisely what the scenario was. Folks seem to gloss over the issue: Frank Schleck was stuck back with Armstrong, Wiggins and Nibali (I believe). Frank couldn't set tempo or attack because his brother Andy was up the hill. Same story for Lance, but he had Contador and Kloden up the road. It was clear that Wiggins was going to have to do the work, and I suspect that's what Lance was trying to make happen. In the process, he (Lance Armstrong), created the opportunity for Frank to bridge to his brother solo (i.e., not helping bring Wiggins or Armstrong), which SIGNIFICANTLY altered the dynamics at the front of the stage. No longer did you have Andy isolated with two Astana team members, now you had TWO strong climbers with one great climber and one climber on the limit (that would be Kloden for those following at home).

Now here's what I don't understand. If Armstrong is just being the consummate teammate, and he was sacrificing himself for AC, what exactly was he ****ed about? I mean, nothing stops him for giving AC some advice about tactics after the stage, but going to the press about it? Why? AC's position was secure, which, as folks are arguing is what Lance was protecting. That argument makes no sense in the light of Armstrong's (over)reaction.

 

[Carboncrank]

Ok then. Your tactics are there for everybody to read. Tell me, why did AC not attack Andy on Ventoux??

you are kidding right?

Nothing happened on Ventoux that wasn't dictated by the standings and common race sense.
To win the Tour the only thing Alberto has to do is mark andy. Everywhere Andy went Alberto went.

If it had been some other climb on a calmer day maybe AC could have put on a show but on that bare slope with the expected high wins there was no point in trying to be alone in the front. He make his point of being strongest simply by countering every attack.

I hope that helps you learn a little about stage racing bicycles.

 

[Publicus]

You are clearly having fun with this as your comments just keep getting further and further out there.

Just keeping it consistent with your "Contador attacked his teammate" logic. I don't believe that Armstrong attack Azevedo (hence the ). But yes, I'm having fun.

 

[fulcrum]

He did, defending somebodies lead when they are ahead and marking attacks is helping. He did work for him on the early slopes of the climb. Any way how can he help him if AC goes against team tatics and rides away without any orders. It seems to be all about him.

Repeating a lie a thousand times is not going to make it true. Marking Wiggo's wheel is respecting your team leader, not helping AC. Helping AC would be for Lance to put in 1 gram of extra effort above what was of interest to his own GC aspirations. Which he didn't during the entire tour. And again, as a weak factless little fanboy you are, you won't be able to produce a single piece of video backing your statement of Lance making an effort to set an uphill tempo for AC.

And since you seem a little thick, setting the tempo uphill is leading a group of people and making sure they ride at your speed. A photo of Lance going 13th in the peloton with AC on his wheel is not setting the tempo. A photo of Lance going downhill is not setting the tempo either.

 

[gree0232]

So what? Well, Lance had publicly stated that he would have no problem what so ever working for Contador if the road determined that AC was the strongest rider.

That's one of the conditions he used to parachute his backstabbing ass into Astana and make sure Contador was not leaving.

Now, can you tell me how many teams in the peloton had a diva show up from retirement and upset the entire make and balance of the team? Promising this and that and not delivering? Oh don't bother... I'll give you the answer: ONE, only Astana.

Well, here's a thought, Lance Armstrong coming out of retirement has absolutely nothing to do with Alberto. Nada, zero, zilch.

But he comes out of retirement, links up with the team that has Trek bikes, of which Lance is lifetime sponsored, his old pal JB at the helm, and has a strong number of riders from the previous USPS/Discovery Team. Wow, I see no reason whatsoever why Lance would go to team Astana! He was clearly out only to screw AC.

Heh AC, everything Lance does is not about you! Other riders are also allowed to have GC ambitions! If AC is the strongest, why does he care?

Nope best to rip into Levi after one historic win and then Lance after the next!

Somehow though, the behavior is professional, a symbol of mature, able leadership, and definitely not a sign of arrogance. To criticize these things? Well, you must just put on a Darth Vader helmet and be part of the dark side of cycling. Anything levelled at Lance is fair game.

Whether the comment was appropriate? Just remember, AC culd have said something like, "Of course there was tension! Lance and I are both GC riders and that can be stressful. However, just like I said in the beginning, the legs would do the talking."

"At least now Greg LeMond doesn't like either one of us, so we have that to build a relationship on."

Nah, a personal cutting comment was aimed at Lance so its all good. Lance had it coming by coming out of retirement just to thumb his nose at AC. That is clearly what Lance has thought about every day since returning.

 

[UpTheRoad]

Much of this I agree with. Good post. Personally, I think that Garmin would suit Contador down to the ground. Strong TTT skills and VdV and Wiggins are strong riders but not threatening enough like Armstrong and Kloden for him to feel threatened.

Do you agree with this part?

Remember, AC won every single one of his Grand Tours with the Astana machine and Johan Bruyneel behind him.

Playing with the semantics a bit here...do you believe that the Astana machine and Johan Bruyneel were behind (i.e. supporting) Contador this TdF? If so, I am of the opposite opinion. If the stories coming out are true, it appears that both LA and JB were sabotaging Contador's chances.

This pertains to the road only...should Contador have felt threatened by either Armstrong or Kloden?

 

[Carboncrank]

Repeating a lie a thousand times is not going to make it true. Marking Wiggo's wheel is respecting your team leader, not helping AC. Helping AC would be for Lance to put in 1 gram of extra effort above what was of interest to his own GC aspirations. Which he didn't during the entire tour. And again, as a weak factless little fanboy you are, you won't be able to produce a single piece of video backing your statement of Lance making an effort to set an uphill tempo for AC.

And since you seem a little thick, setting the tempo uphill is leading a group of people and making sure they ride at your speed. A photo of Lance going 13th in the peloton with AC on his wheel is not setting the tempo. A photo of Lance going downhill is not setting the tempo either.

on Ventoux, in the last 5k, AC spends 2k at one stretch riding Lances wheel, 4th in line. He's getting a breather so he can counter the last attack by Andy which he knows is coming.

and lance was in the 3 in front on stage 7 making tempo when Alberto jumped them.

2 out the 3 uphill finishes I believe.

 

[Publicus]

Ok then. Your tactics are there for everybody to read. Tell me, why did AC not attack Andy on Ventoux??

My thoughts, he had just put another 1:45 into Andy the day before. He had padded his lead, which is what he was trying to do on Stage 17 (take time on your rivals when you can). On Saturday, 1st and 2nd were decided. Andy was trying to set up Frank. So Contador just followed his wheel. No need to attack, because he had an insurmountable lead. More to the point, he had specifically said he was going to help Lance secure his podium position. Attacking Andy would have put Lance in a world of hurt and worked to Frank's advantage.

Now, do you understand how Stage 17 was different? Why it hurt Kloden more to have two Saxo Bank riders at the front, than just one? That Lance Armstrong's inattentiveness was the reason that Frank was able to bridge over? Armstrong did the right thing AFTER the fact (and I think he was thinking correctly trying to force Wiggins to do the pace making), but he still created the opening that allowed Frank to get away. I don't think this is even an arguable point.

 

[gree0232]

Do you agree with this part?



Playing with the semantics a bit here...do you believe that the Astana machine and Johan Bruyneel were behind (i.e. supporting) Contador this TdF? If so, I am of the opposite opinion. If the stories coming out are true, it appears that both LA and JB were sabotaging Contador's chances.

This pertains to the road only...should Contador have felt threatened by either Armstrong or Kloden?

With Lance publicaly claiming AC was the stonger rider, I would be curious to see how Lance was sabotaging AC?

He didn't cry and get off his bike?

I guess Levi should have done that in the Vuelta too ...