Doping in XC skiing

[Tyler'sTwin]

spaccy eyes well done. you really know how to play this argument game.

why don't you rather try and come up with a convincing link or explanation, you've yet to do so. I don't really distrust the numbers but I'd like to know I can and so far you've done f*** all to make me dare believe it to be true

No offense, but are you perhaps ***?

I just proved it was presented at the Danish Institute for Sports Studies in 2006, you cretin.

 

[ToreBear]

Except the FACT that they had sky high hemoglobin just like all the other EPO-chargers. Abnormal blood is evidence you know. Just ask Franco Pellizotti. But I'm sure those 9 (that we know of) norwegians with blood in the please-take-a-14-day-vacation-range all had naturally high values or magic altitude tents that raise Hb by 3 g/dl.

This was my reply in the other thread, it should still apply:


1995 Methodology problems. Testing conducted after the race. The tempreture was horrible for skiing(warm), causing more dehydration. It's likely all values were too high until the methodology was corrected in the 96/97 season when max levels were introduced.
http://www.sportsci.org/news/news9701/EPOfeat.html

1999. I think testing was carried out before the race started. Meaning at least the Norwegians would have been well rested after just having come down from altitude or working out in the Altititude house. hg levels are higher after a period of rest and altitude training as the link writes.

The numbers presented in dagbladet are I asume from the data over their careers. I don't see any problems with these numbers. Who knows the conditions during the testing of individuals(dehydration, etc). Also these values vary from time to time as per link above.


Now your use of the word FACT is a bit expansive. You have arguments you call facts because you believe them. But for something to be called a fact you would need much more knowlege.

Example of things that would need to be answered:

What is sky high hemoglobin? Is it between subjects or within subjects?

What methodologies were used in acquiring these numbers? Dehydration? Faulty measurement? Test takers who do not follow the same procedures?

What is abnormal blood? Same as the above.

Were these high blood values always in relation to competition? We don't know, there is a lot we don't know.

As for abnormal blood being evidence. That was not true untill the introduction of the blood passport in 2008. AFAIK they need a lot of blood tests to esablish a baseline before anything can be evidence.

FIS introduced blood profiling in the 2001-2002-2003 timeframe. It did the same thing as the bloodpassport, but it could AFAIK only be used for targeted testing, and not as evidence.

I'we had a touch of insomnia lately, so I appologize if my arguments don't make much sence. They look ok to me, but with too little sleep, I might make errors.

 

[neineinei]

Dallas Texas? Home of Lance Armstrong and Ed Coyle?

Nilsen was a student at Southern Methodist University at the time. Anti doping official Rune Andersen was sent over to test six Norwegians, one Brit and two Swedes. The Brit, the Swedes and one Norwegian was clean. Nilsen had had an extraordinary progress of results. And he had been given cocky interviews where he said stuff like "I can't really be bothered to answer "No, I am not doping" anymore." Armstrong of course said this much better, "I'm sorry that you can't dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles."

 

[ToreBear]

I find it hard to believe that the norwegians managed to beat all those doped to the eyeballs italians, russians, finns etc without being on the juice themselves.

Don't you believe in miracles?

If you think about xc skiing coming from a thinking about cycling point of view, I understand you finding it hard to believe.

Skiing relies much more on skill and technology than cycling.

Does anyone seriously believe you could win anything in cross country skiing without heavily jucing in the Epo/CERA/Blood Doping era?

Yes, I do. Skill and technology.

 

[Cloxxki]

Yes, I do. Skill and technology.

Do keep in mind the great effect of power output on speed in XC. And the high level of skill across the board in pro skiing. In ski speed, 5% slower puts you at the very back of world cup races. Taking a clean backmarker like that, and doping them to da max, will do a lot for ski speed.

Since relative performances are very consistent among the pack, I would not be surprised if foreknowledge of testing would be the evening factor. Imagine not only USPS had good foreknowledge. That evens things out nicely already.

 

[python]

spaccy eyes well done. you really know how to play this argument game.

why don't you rather try and come up with a convincing link or explanation, you've yet to do so. I don't really distrust the numbers but I'd like to know I can and so far you've done f*** all to make me dare believe it to be true

this was a GENUINE fis presentation in denmark .

the presenter was probably damsgaard. the time frame i believe was 2008.

the reason the presenter's name and date are not shown on the power point aren't clear, but you should stop doubting the source.

 

[ToreBear]

It was presented at the Danish Institute for Sports Studies in April 2006. Of course it's legit.

http://www.idan.dk/About.aspx

http://www.ppt2txt.com/dm/www.idan.dk

I have no problems with you making your arguments. The problem is that you can't extract the information you like from a document and then say it's proof omitting all the other information.

The presentation you use is interesting, but it omits too much detail. The sources are either non existent, or vague. It's very good at getting attention, but it's little more than an attention grabber.

What you are doing now is presenting your case while sending everyone to look for the original sources to the material that you use as evidence. Few people are going to bother doing that, and it's also very annoying.

If you want your arguments taken more seriously, find the sources to your arguments and have them available when people ask.


A source is a specific document. Not a search on idan.dk

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Dude, it's not a coincidence that every single medalist in Ramsau had a Hb so high that they wouldn't have been allowed to compete today. It's not a coincidence that 3 (at least) norwegians had start-prohibition Hb values at the same event. That never, ever happens today. Not freaking normal! Athletes still train at altitude, but you don't see half a team get booted from an event for abnormal blood values. The swedes slept in altitude tents as well and were >16 g/dl exactly 0 times from 95-01, while at least 7 norwegians were at 17 d/dl (and at least 2 women at 16 g/dl), so did the norwegians have magic altitude tents or are norwegians blessed with higher natural Hb than the rest of Europe (but lost it in the last decade )? I recommend that you look up how many skiers have high Hb exemptions. It aint common. The 2006 olympics were held at 1500m. The avg Hb was 1 g/dl above avg Hb at sea-level and 10 skiers from ALL nations were at 17 g/dl and not allowed to participate, something Bengt Saltin attributes mostly to altitude and partially to doping.

You conveniently ignore OBH's Ramsau miracle. Just how does a guy with a 14.5 baseline end up at 17.1 or higher, mid-season, in peak-form? Not by altitude. And the guy claims his peak is mid-15's... can you say BUSTED!?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

this was a GENUINE fis presentation in denmark .

the presenter was probably damsgaard. the time frame i believe was 2008.

the reason the presenter's name and date are not shown on the power point aren't clear, but you should stop doubting the source.

Pretty sure it was presented by Bengt Saltin in -06.

Idrættens Analyseinstitut - Dopingkonference i Odense
praksis ved doping med EPO Se langrendsfeltets gennemsnitlige hæmoglobinværdier før og efter indførsel af blodscreeninger i det internationale skiforbund Power Point Kilde Bengt Saltin fmd for det internationale skiforbunds medicinske komité Ændringer i en udøvers blodprofil udløser ikke en sanktion for doping højst en midlertidig udelukkelse af helbredsårsager Men blodprofilerne kan bruges til at målrette den egentlige dopingkontrol mod udøvere med mistænkelige værdier I dag ligger langrendsfeltets gennemsnitlige hæmoglobinniveau da også væsentligt under niveauet i 1990 erne Forbundets brug af blodprofiler fik i øvrigt grønt lys af den internationale sportsdomstol CAS da man under vintersol i Torino behandlede det internationale skiforbunds helbredsbegrundede udelukkelse af 12 langrendsløbere med for høje hæmoglobinværdier Ifølge Saltin kan hovedparten om end ikke alle sagerne fra vinter OL forklares med skiløbernes massive satsning på højdetræning inden vinter OL Samtidig nærer Bengt Saltin ingen illusioner om at skisporten er fri for misbrug af stoffer som EPO og Nesp Der er sket en sofistikering Atleterne forsvinder i 4 5 dage Hvis kontrollen dukker uanmeldt op får de højst en advarsel for ikke at være på det angivne sted Derefter vedligeholder de niveauet med stoffet albumin som ikke kan spores sagde Bengt Saltin Med andre ord kan man sagtens være dopet med EPO eller Nesp selv om man holder sig under den angivne hæmatokritværdi

http://www.idan.dk/Nyheder/122dopingkonference.aspx (2012-06-11)

Sports Studies - Doping Conference in Odense
practice of doping with EPO See the cross country fields average hemoglobin values &#8203]

It's a perfect fit.

 

[ToreBear]

Is this indicative of track and field across the board, or is it a case of Norwegians being more capable at catching athletes or...

ie from the same time period do we see US or another sporting powerhouse with similar hauls of dopers. If not, is it because they were behind (unlikely) or because USOC were a corrupt bunch (definitely - SI has the proof).

So what has changed? 97ml/mm/kg for a kid on a bike is incredible. Is noone doping now? Are they being caught?

It could have many reasons. Perhaps fewer dopers? Perhaps better testing? Perhaps no one willing to cover up? Who knows.


What has changed? Well they are still catching dopers. Just very few at the top level who get media attention. Having looked through some reports from http://www.antidoping.no/ they seem to catch a lot of Tetrahydrocannabinol and ethanol users, but also annabolics among weightlifters etc.

Perhaps the top level athletes don't want to dope because of the feared societal backlash?

The NADA seem to want to be innovative. In their 2011 annual report they say that they have or are working on establishing testosterone profiles and IGF1/PIINP profiles of the athletes.
Testosterone for all prioritized athletes and IGF1/PIINP for 37 athletes.

The annual reports are available in Norwegian here:
http://www.antidoping.no/internett/ressurssider/arsrapport/


On the o2 numbers for the kid, we looked at it in another thread. It could be some measurement error/crossnational differences. His numbers were not that extreme last year, but still world class at 87 or something IIRC.

If he were using drugs, it would be shocking for such a young athlete.

 

[ToreBear]

Nilsen was a student at Southern Methodist University at the time. Anti doping official Rune Andersen was sent over to test six Norwegians, one Brit and two Swedes. The Brit, the Swedes and one Norwegian was clean. Nilsen had had an extraordinary progress of results. And he had been given cocky interviews where he said stuff like "I can't really be bothered to answer "No, I am not doping" anymore." Armstrong of course said this much better, "I'm sorry that you can't dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles."

Thanks for all your info. Those guys really got what they deserved.

 

[acoggan]

Dallas Texas? Home of Lance Armstrong and Ed Coyle?

Q: How is Austin, TX, like yogurt, whereas Dallas, TX, is not?

A: Austin has an active culture.

(W/ apologies to anyone from Dallas, which seems like a fine place when I've visited...my point is simply that they clearly aren't the one-and-the-same, either geographically or culturally.)

 

[python]

...


Yes, I do. Skill and technology.

this is true enough.

i am not interjecting into your conversation with tt and i am not bringing up accusations for which i don’t have proof.

i am only going to comment on the impact of the technical side in xc skiing and it being used as a cover for doping…skiing techniques and waxing are indeed huge in any given skier success. the norwegians deserved their reputation for being fashion-setters in both. yet one needs to consider that waxing has been used as an excuse by dopers for ever…even in the latest finnish documentary (sinivalkoinen valhe), punkkinen spins the role of fluoride waxes on his team. (source in swedish ) as if he knew for sure what other teams were doing - the area traditionally not shared.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

the International Ski Federation Power Point Source Bengt Saltin FMD for the International Skiing Federation medical committee

Okay, so Bengt Saltin made a PPT pres at an IDAN-conference in -06 and our PPT pres is from an IDAN-conference in -06.

See the cross country fields average hemoglobin values ​​before and after the introduction of blood screening

Today, cross-country field's average hemoglobin level since also significantly below the level in 1990

Multiple slides deal with the evolution of mean Hb and blood profiling.

the League of use of blood profiles were also green light of the international sports court CAS

Slide 41.

the exclusion of 12 cross-country skiers with high hemoglobin values

Slide 31.

athletes disappear in 4 5 days If checks show up unannounced get the maximum a warning not to be in the space then maintain the level of substance albumin undetectable

Slide 38.

Case closed.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1035504&postcount=558

 

[ToreBear]

Do keep in mind the great effect of power output on speed in XC. And the high level of skill across the board in pro skiing. In ski speed, 5% slower puts you at the very back of world cup races. Taking a clean backmarker like that, and doping them to da max, will do a lot for ski speed.

Since relative performances are very consistent among the pack, I would not be surprised if foreknowledge of testing would be the evening factor. Imagine not only USPS had good foreknowledge. That evens things out nicely already.

I find it difficult to put percentage values into the different areas. As an example compare Marit Bjørgen to Justyna Kowalzyk skiing downhill. When watching them race it's easy to see that Bjørgen is much better downhill.

Now is she 1% better or 10% better? It's difficult to put a number on how much the time difference that skill difference means at the end of the race.

Justyna has to compensate with catching up on the flat or uphill extending more energy. If she was as good as marit downhill, how much energy would Marit have to spend keeping up with Justyna?

Then there is the difference in the skiis.

In short, there are so many unknown variables in skiing, that assesing dopings potential is difficult.


As for consistency, in what way? Who is consistent compared to who?

Foreknowledge of testing? Please elaborate?

I'm a little sleep deprived, so I apologize if my thinking is a bit slow.

 

[ToreBear]

this is true enough.

i am not interjecting into your conversation with tt and i am not bringing up accusations for which i don’t have proof.

i am only going to comment on the impact of the technical side in xc skiing and it being used as a cover for doping…skiing techniques and waxing are indeed huge in any given skier success. the norwegians deserved their reputation for being fashion-setters in both. yet one needs to consider that waxing has been used as an excuse by dopers for ever…even in the latest finnish documentary (sinivalkoinen valhe), punkkinen spins the role of fluoride waxes on his team. (source in swedish ) as if he knew for sure what other teams were doing - the area traditionally not shared.

Don't worry about it. I am not an expert on this subject, so any corrections or additional input is most welcome.

As for the technique and skill argument, it is easier to reply with this than go into all the other areas that might also help explain why Norwegians were competitive in the 90s without doping.

Having before registering, read through this thread, I noticed that a lot of posters were using the same reasoning as they would in regards to cycling without understanding how much technique and skill come into play in xc skiing. This is natural in a cycling forum, but leads you totally astray in regards to skiing. Simple things like a change in weather during a race could lead to huge differences between usually comparable athletes just because one team gambled on the weather not changing. In the clinic were one is used to think in terms of cycling, this can lead to all kinds of erroneous conclusions.

As for difference in waxing, yes this is a good excuse, though it has it's limits due to what one can see during a race.

I read the article, and from my understanding Punkkinen talks about the period 84-90 with the Italians.

And AFAIK this was the period of the "style wars", and different nations took to new innovation in different ways. I think the Norwegians were dragged kicking and screaming.

Also I think there were also huge developments in waxing and skis at that time too.

That might explain the Italian success, though it could also be explained by blood doping/doping. It could also be explained by doping and new material.

I haven't seen the docu, and I don't know the context of his statement. He might be correct in it's huge impact. But from my understanding of Coni at that time and also about Finnish doping, it would not surprise me if they used both the doping and the material advantage to their benefit.

Mind you I was not watching skiing at all in that era. My impression is based on what I have read and my assessment of this information.

 

[workingclasshero]

No offense, but are you perhaps ***?

I just proved it was presented at the Danish Institute for Sports Studies in 2006, you cretin.

you try too hard kiddo, you simply don't have what it takes to pull off that attitude.

anyway, I want to know for sure who collected the data and who presented them. I've given numerous presentations and lectures based mainly on made up data (realistic and probably correct data but still made up) so a presentation being given somewhere which neither you nor I know owt about doesn't add too much credibility.

edit: I see you've finally come to your senses and made your source far more accessible.

 

[ToreBear]

@Tyler'sTwin

I just wanted to say I haven't forgotten you and you are of course not on my ignore list.

I would like to continue the discussion. Though perhaps a a little into the future. I'm a bit distracted with other interesting things, and I feel your arguments require a bit more reading on my part before I delve into them deeper.

It might be tomorrow, next week, in a month, I can't tell when I will do things before I do them.

 

[meat puppet]

Norske ladies' team in damage control mode after the Kjargaard stuff spreads, it seems. With pics to prove that we aint taking nothing.

 

[Ney the Viking]

Norske ladies' team in damage control mode after the Kjargaard stuff spreads, it seems. With pics to prove that we aint taking nothing.

would be more fun if they aint wearing nothing

 

[torkil]

would be more fun if they aint wearing nothing

Thats exactly what they did..
http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/10/23/...ke_skofterud/kristin_stormer_steira/24005270/

 

[Velo1ticker]

He definitely lost a gold medal because of skis on the team relay (or whatever it's called). Not because of his skis, but because of Hjelmesets skis which were horrible as you can easily see yourself.

The importance of good ski preparation is clearly seen in the mens 50 km at Holmenkollen 2011. Going fast downhill isn't due to EPO.

 

[python]

would be more fun if they aint wearing nothing

you know that vibeke appeared just like that …and more than once.
i would never dare to violate the cn forum rules but you can easily help yourself (wink)

and since we are on the norge skiing gals proving their antidoping with their bodies, it is a must to talk about the 2 queens of the queens

I could be convinced about therese...

And the rest of the norge lady team

But i dont know about marit …?

 

[Cloxxki]

Norske ladies' team in damage control mode after the Kjargaard stuff spreads, it seems. With pics to prove that we aint taking nothing.

Is there a connection we should be worried about then? Or could this point to an all-NO doping network? The girls were eerily dominant last season... One looking like a freight train, the other like a stick figure on well, amphetamie. I'm totally in love with the latter, though...

 

[ToreBear]

To understand Marit Bjørgens development one would need to see pictures of her body throughout the years, to see weather the development seems un natural.

Then one would need to see if the pictures are brushed up. Magazines remove dimples and enhance features. Don't see why they wouldn't enhance muscles the same way.