Doping in XC skiing

[Tyler'sTwin]

Kalla compleatly destoys the field from a rather late startnumber and we should suspect who? The onces was deastoyed? That like suspecting someone way back when Froome destroys the field. I no expert bit i fail tio se the logic.

In theese conditions, today this is probably the most ridicilus performance i have have ever seen on a pair of skiis. Bit i'm no doping expert.

And by suspecting Kalla im not saying anyone else is clean.

I don't think it's possible to draw any clinic related conclusions based on this joke of a race.

 

[python]

Johaug and Jacobsen are obviously in great form. You really are shockingly thick if you do not realize that ski prep in combination with the drastic change in conditions was the issue today (although Bjorgen and Weng are probably not in TdS form).

i think you are shocking fool if you think chemistry did not play a role.

and if you bothered to read what i wrote, i mentioned ski prep twice as possible, including in combination with chemistry.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

i think you are shocking fool if you think chemistry did not play a role.

and if you bothered to read what i wrote, i mentioned ski prep twice as possible, including in combination with chemistry.

Only a fool would think Johaug and Jabocsen could go from 1-2 to ~30th in 3 days due to "chemistry". You were just as bright last year when a relay team consisting of 3 girls who won individual medals in Sochi and the TdS runner up were beaten by the french nobodies. It wasn't a ski prep issue, it was a form issue! Johaug and Bjorgen won indicidual medals a few days before and after the relay, but you still thought their weak performance in the relay was a matter of form. You are a ridculous poster.

 

[Discgear]

Congratulations on completely avoding to adress the point I made.

I'm swedish btw. But not silly enough to think Kalla, Hellner and Olsson can beat the best skiing talents in Norway if they are at a 3-5% disadvantage. Your position is illogical.

So your point was that I claimed Kalla, Hellner, Halfvarsson and Olsson are clean. Well that's a hard point to address since I didn't claim that in my reflections over the sprint relay. I addressed other things concerning the way those races developed.

And by the way, I'm worried over Kalla who always was a tremendous talent but lost ground to the Norwegian girls. The solution was to go and train with them. That worries me.

And you know, my point addressing the Norwegian dominance is: If the Norwegian girls are clean and still so dominant year after year, it should be a high priority - in keeping the sport clean - for the Norwegian Ski Federation, to share their knowledge. As it is right now, many skiers must be tempted to go the Angel's dust path, when all other possibilities have been a dead end in being competitive.

 

[Nicko.]

A:
she finally found form after training hard for Falun all season
-> she crushed the opposition to shift the balance of confidence
-> the found form made her very happy and visibly excited afterwards

or

B:
she doped before the race that's 7-14 days prior the races that matter
-> she crushed the opposition to highlight her doping sucess
-> that the blood bag/EPO shot worked so well made her very happy and visibly excted afterwards

Pick the likely scenario...

Kalla compleatly destoys the field from a rather late startnumber and we should suspect who? The onces was deastoyed? That like suspecting someone way back when Froome destroys the field. I not a expert but i fail to see the logic.

In theese conditions, today this is probably the most ridicilus performance i have have ever seen on a pair of skiis. Bit i'm no doping expert.

And by suspecting Kalla im not saying anyone else is clean.

So which scenario is it?

Or, by all means, refute them both and make your own case.
Let's hear the explanation for the 8+ years of world class 10k free performances.

 

[the sceptic]

I think Python should write a 5000 word essay explaining why 35 year old Gregg decided to start blood doping yesterday.

 

[python]

Only a fool would think Johaug and Jabocsen could go from 1-2 to ~30th in 3 days due to "chemistry".

only a poster not following the xc sport closely can neglect chemistry in the sport. suspecting pharma withdrawal for any number of reasons= failed performance has been the history of the sport.

You were just as bright last year when a relay team consisting of 3 girls who won individual medals in Sochi and the TdS runner up were beaten by the french nobodies.

that's your problem...seeing what you want, rather than what was said. throughout the sochi olympics, i was commenting on many factors that affected the norwegian performance... their spinning of northug's form as being ONLY due to ski prep, their late admission of high altitude prep mistakes etc...i also, clearly posted that in some case the norwegian skis were visibly slower than others

You are a ridculous poster.

i will let other posters to judge that. as for a poster, you are, i will say this - you falsehoods sometimes...

like just 2 days ago you asserted that vyleg went home after oesresund, when he even did not take part in the race and NEVER was in sweden. you are either too lazy to check facts or deliberately post stuff like that to boost own beliefs.

 

[maltiv]

i think you are shocking fool if you think chemistry did not play a role.

and if you bothered to read what i wrote, i mentioned ski prep twice as possible, including in combination with chemistry.

Really? They had to double pole in the downhills, as evident in both their interviews and the race footage. With such horrible skis, not even a fully juiced Johan M?hlegg could have been competitive.

 

[pettero]

It is difficult to understand the importance of ski preparation for people who have little or no experience with actually putting on skis and heading out into the forest. This isn't like cycling, bad ski preparation will make any doping insignificant.

 

[Deadbody]

So which scenario is it?

Or, by all means, refute them both and make your own case.
Let's hear the explanation for the 8+ years of world class 10k free performances.

Well, 4-6? weeks before ostersund add dubbel epo and whatever else she needs. She was a bit heavy earlier in the season(from the TV images) so a little something to help loose a few punds.

After ostersund she dident travel with the rest of the swedish girls to Falun, she stayed behind(to avoid media officially) to take one more dubble epo dose and then just before going to Falun she used a bloodbag.

While in Falun keep doing what you need to mask bloodvalues.

Im way out of my league here, i dont have any knowhow how too dope. But Kalla performance is "too good too be true" from my point of view.

Edit: the usual winning duo hade terrible skis today, no dubt about that. But Kallas performance was still too good too be true.

Seeing Kalla ski up next to Johaug on the classic part in the skiarhlon when Johaug droped Marit upphill is another moment where Kalls performance is way above her usual.

Kalla is world class on 10k free, no dubt about that but whats her avrage time behind the winner for the last 3-4 years? She has not won once, not counting national races. I guess she would avrage 40ish sec behind. I'm on the phone so will not do the match now, perhaps later.

 

[python]

Really? They had to double pole in the downhills, as evident in both their interviews and the race footage. With such horrible skis, not even a fully juiced Johan M?hlegg could have been competitive.

for me, seeing is believing. as in most individual races, the camera was trained on the check points or just prior and after. i do not recall much gliding action from ANYONE. it was either climbing or (at the finish) flat. i am going to re-play the race a bit later to see if i can catch any skiing on the downhills, and particularly seeing what you refer to...

as i said, the ski prep mistakes are possible, but their use as a masking media for other performance flops is as old as skis themselves.

 

[Segisteg]

for me, seeing is believing. as in most individual races, the camera was trained on the check points or just prior and after. i do not recall much gliding action from ANYONE. it was either climbing or (at the finish) flat. i am going to re-play the race a bit later to see if i can catch any skiing on the downhills, and particularly seeing what you refer to...

as i said, the ski prep mistakes are possible, but their use as a masking media for other performance flops is as old as skis themselves.

According to sources out on the course, the americans and Kalla has beaten the norvegians - and most other racers - with about 15-20 seconds on a 1,5 minutes downhill slope.

 

[figgelura]

Kalla

I have Always seen this forum as a serious Place to discuss Everything about doping in xc-skiing. WTF. To discuss whether that Kalla is doping based on the result today is about as stupid as its gets. Clearly some people lacks knowledge about skiing.

First the norwegians stoped racing after 2-3 k when they knew the skis wasnt there. And secondly this condition with temperature around 0 degree Celsius with new snow ontop is the most difficult to prepare skis in. If you choose the wrong structure the snow sticks in the structure and it feels like you left the handbrake on.

Thirdly the starting number from 1-65 decided how much snow had fallen.

So the result from this race is not qualified to use in a discussion about doping. To many varibles playing a big role on the outcome.

 

[Discgear]

According to sources out on the course, the americans and Kalla has beaten the norvegians - and most other racers - with about 15-20 seconds on a 1,5 minutes downhill slope.

Kalla beating Diggins or Gregg by some 40 sec on her favourit distance is no surprise. BTW, the Americans has a Swedish waxing boss, it looks like those two waxing staffs have shared information. In Sotji several waxers said that they often share information between the teams, except the Norwegians who has an arrogant attitude and never share anything.

What's really surprising today is the underperfomance by the Norwegians. Of course the weather was a significant factor, but does it explain all?

Tomorrow will tell. Was it King Boreas or is Python up to something in his suspicions?

 

[bastigon]

I have Always seen this forum as a serious Place to discuss Everything about doping in xc-skiing. WTF. To discuss whether that Kalla is doping based on the result today is about as stupid as its gets. Clearly some people lacks knowledge about skiing.

First the norwegians stoped racing after 2-3 k when they knew the skis wasnt there. And secondly this condition with temperature around 0 degree Celsius with new snow ontop is the most difficult to prepare skis in. If you choose the wrong structure the snow sticks in the structure and it feels like you left the handbrake on.

Thirdly the starting number from 1-65 decided how much snow had fallen.

So the result from this race is not qualified to use in a discussion about doping. To many varibles playing a big role on the outcome.

Finally someone who tell it like it is. I too, as a lurker, lose faith in this forum. Is it only pretenders posting here nowadays? This race was a lottery. Although Kalla would probably won anyways today if the conditions had been fair. Python use to be one of my favorite posters but you?ve lost it here.

 

[sworks]

Finally someone who tell it like it is. I too, as a lurker, lose faith in this forum. Is it only pretenders posting here nowadays? This race was a lottery. Although Kalla would probably won anyways today if the conditions had been fair. Python use to be one of my favorite posters but you?ve lost it here.

Thanks bastigon and figgelura. I Think that the biggest problem in the clinic is that most posters here Think that the athletes Always is competing with 100 percent. It doesnt work like that. You cant count seconds like that. (Have you ever been competing yourself??) A motivated and happy Kalla is much much better than the opposite....

 

[Barkintheeye]

Today clearly was an exception hence really difficult to draw any conclusions from other than;

1. Norway obviously failed seriously with the waxing. One can wonder why all of the Norwegian skiers seemed to have used the same structure /wax?

2. Sweden likewise obviously got the waxing right despite difficult conditions. To exemplify Rydqvist placed fantastically.

3. Kalla is the one outlier but given the apparent success with the skis it is hard to make the case for performance enhancing substitutes rather than luck, skill and good form...TODAY.


Looking at Kalla's long term performance her last weeks improvements must at least be looked upon as surprising if not suspicious.

 

[meat puppet]

It would have been even more awesome had the US ladies won 1-2 with Kalla struggling as well. 8)

I like to see them Norwegians totally nosedive as much as the next guy, but to me it seems their skis were seriously (more) off than Kalla's or the others'. It takes some of the fun away. Not all, of course. Such is life.

As for there being chemical variables at play, I am guessing plenty, but not as immediate causes. But this one time I go with mainly the skis explanation. Either they all had a bad bag at once, which is surely possible if not very likely, given that they showed no symptoms, or it was about the skis.

Enhanced or not (well, enhanced! is my opinion), Johaug, Jacobsen and even Bj?rgen are in good form. If they all flunk in the coming races, I'll be more open to speculation about other options.

 

[kosmonaut]

Finally someone who tell it like it is. I too, as a lurker, lose faith in this forum. Is it only pretenders posting here nowadays? This race was a lottery. Although Kalla would probably won anyways today if the conditions had been fair. Python use to be one of my favorite posters but you?ve lost it here.

Word.

Looking forward to the coming races. There's still a lot to be discussed, but not much from this one.

 

[python]

Tomorrow will tell. Was it King Boreas or is Python up to something in his suspicions?

for me personally, things are starting to clear up...according to expressen, it was a swedish meteorologist's foresight about coming snow (who used to work in the air force predicting weather). he contacted the chief waxman and they prepared the needed structure and wax about an hour before the race. obviously, the norwegians did not have the benefit..

as i said, in my previous posts IMMEDIATELY after watching the race through the limited coverage of the cameras, several options existed and to grab one and dismiss others without the benefit of further inquiry isn't the way i settle on. i was particularly waiting for the american girls quotes normally liberally quoted in the fasterskier.com...they still did not publish the full report. But many swedish, russian and finnish girls have spoken already. all are consistent..no disrespect for the norwegian girls and coaches, but when i am interested in what REALLY happened, i do not give my ear to the side that lost to avoid biased or emotional judgements.

an lastly,when i mentioned a chemical connection, i was careful not to call it doping. for example, in my signature space, no less than oeb said that marit simply CAN NOT compete w/o her asthma med. of course, an entire team screwing an asthma med is impossible. but it is not unheard of that some bug or a parasite or virus had affected entire teams...it is not unreasonable to assume that their team doctors in an attempt to scramble prescribed something incompatible...

 

[ToreBear]

So your point was that I claimed Kalla, Hellner, Halfvarsson and Olsson are clean. Well that's a hard point to address since I didn't claim that in my reflections over the sprint relay. I addressed other things concerning the way those races developed.

And by the way, I'm worried over Kalla who always was a tremendous talent but lost ground to the Norwegian girls. The solution was to go and train with them. That worries me.

And you know, my point addressing the Norwegian dominance is: If the Norwegian girls are clean and still so dominant year after year, it should be a high priority - in keeping the sport clean - for the Norwegian Ski Federation, to share their knowledge. As it is right now, many skiers must be tempted to go the Angel's dust path, when all other possibilities have been a dead end in being competitive.

I think it is a high priority.
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/fis-norsk-ski-dominans-bekymrer/a/23394288/
http://www.skiforbundet.no/langrenn/nyhetsarkiv/stotte-til-langrennssamling/

The Norwegian federation is focusing on bringing in talents from around the world to show them how they do it in Norway. The athletes themselves train with foreigners. I think in 2013 Astrid Jacobsen was in the US training with the US ski team.

The federation arranges classes for coaches to spread knowledge. Norwegian coaches and waxers are employed in many countries.

The only thing that is secret is the waxing. And today showed how important an advantage that is for the Norwegian team.

The waxers themselves I think could be lured away. Though some of them might know too much to be allowed to leave... Alive.

 

[Cloxxki]

I cannot imagine a dimension in which Johaug and Bjoergen BOTH lose 2 minutes in ski prep over 10km. They did have a bit more snow and wear on the tracks. Let's say that was worth 10 seconds.

But, Johaug and Bjoergen were not really racing. You can tell by how they calmly take off their skis as if they'd just done an easy sprint qualifier.
Weng beats them both I think, having started with similar start number.

Johaug should have an advantage over Bjoergen, more than her result showed, over soft snow. Johaug was slacking. Broken by strong splits from Kalla on slightly quicker snow with slightly faster skis makes sense. Kalla IS as good as it gets over 10km freestyle, and has home advantage of ski prep (lots of locals may have been spotting the weather and tracks). If Kalla goes out hard, no way Johaug or even Bjoergen on thicker snow can match that. It breaks them.
That said, Diggins seems to be the one outlier next to Kalla. Similar start number, slightly better snow, corrected to ~1 minute off Kalla's performance. If she did get the same intel for a ski prep to use as did Kalla, Kalla's time seems less extraterrestrial.
Gregg, she was just lucky. Put in a solid ski on the freshes tracks of the day. Not sure if pacing makes a difference on deteriorating tracks but she'll not have put a ski wrong. 1 minute 20 faster tracks than Diggins, 1m30 vs Kalla? Then still you can call he an outlier here I suppose.
Perhaps skis DO explain the podium them.
But, how did other Swedes do? Not stellar I think.

Johaug and Bjoergen slacking makes this result look crazier than it really was. On same ski prep as Kalla, I could see Johaug holding on better and not giving up, getting second. She may well have throw a full minute or more there. Even a bronze, with the skis she had on.

There is a chance, and I kind of hope it to be true, that the Swedes as organizers have found ways to get back t the Norweegians always publically belitteling them. Say, start rumors that there will be police raids of waxing cabins, other vehicles, and rooms. I've heard of XC runners packing their bag and racing home when a rumor of anti-doping controls was presented to them. And it's been documented on this forum of even master cyclists avoiding in-competition tests by just getting the heck out of there.
If I were the Swedes, I'd make the life of the Norwegians as difficult as possible. Maybe let electricity fail in their hotel (no freezers). Let a police bus be parked there when they get back from racing. Etc, etc.
That said, it didn't work on the sprint teams. Theories, theories....

 

[Discgear]

I think it is a high priority.
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/fis-norsk-ski-dominans-bekymrer/a/23394288/
http://www.skiforbundet.no/langrenn/nyhetsarkiv/stotte-til-langrennssamling/

Thanks' for the links. Seems that the last year has been a wakeup call. Better late than never.

After following this thread for some years I'm today fully convinced that the Norwegian dominance through the 90s was based on systematic use of substances that are now banned. That's a heavy shadow over the current generation of Norwegian skiers.

Being so dominant today, Norwegian Ski Federation simply have to get those skeletons out of the closet before anyone outside Norway will fully appreciate the many amazing Norwegian XC-performances we are witnessing today.

Even you Torebear, must have raised your eyebrows watching the sprint relays last Sunday. I sure did.

I'm also sorry to say that both Krogh and Kalla made me think twice the Sunday before.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I cannot imagine a dimension in which Johaug and Bjoergen BOTH lose 2 minutes in ski prep over 10km. They did have a bit more snow and wear on the tracks. Let's say that was worth 10 seconds.

But, Johaug and Bjoergen were not really racing. You can tell by how they calmly take off their skis as if they'd just done an easy sprint qualifier.
Weng beats them both I think, having started with similar start number.

Well, there you've got the double factor, one that if the skis aren't letting you get the power down properly you can't always necessarily go that deep. At the Olympic relay last year, when Johaug crossed the line on those joke skis that had huge clumps of ice stuck to the bottom, the group with her were sprawling out on the floor, Therese was able to take her skis off and walk off complaining; there there's no way she wasn't going all out. Here, once the skis were clearly no good and the podium was gone, it's an individual race, not a team one; if the skis are bad there's no possibility the race can be salvaged by somebody else having a better day etc., so you may as well ease up and preserve energy for the fight at the podium elsewhere. If anything, Kalla may be disappointed that the Norwegians had such bad skis, because the day she was on, she would have been hard to beat anyway, and then the Norwegians would have gone deeper; as it is, Kalla went all out for a time that in the end was a huge outlier and she needn't have given it her all - she could still have won with a lesser performance. She of course wasn't to know that.

Johaug should have an advantage over Bjoergen, more than her result showed, over soft snow. Johaug was slacking. Broken by strong splits from Kalla on slightly quicker snow with slightly faster skis makes sense. Kalla IS as good as it gets over 10km freestyle, and has home advantage of ski prep (lots of locals may have been spotting the weather and tracks). If Kalla goes out hard, no way Johaug or even Bjoergen on thicker snow can match that. It breaks them.
That said, Diggins seems to be the one outlier next to Kalla. Similar start number, slightly better snow, corrected to ~1 minute off Kalla's performance. If she did get the same intel for a ski prep to use as did Kalla, Kalla's time seems less extraterrestrial.
Gregg, she was just lucky. Put in a solid ski on the freshes tracks of the day. Not sure if pacing makes a difference on deteriorating tracks but she'll not have put a ski wrong. 1 minute 20 faster tracks than Diggins, 1m30 vs Kalla? Then still you can call he an outlier here I suppose.
Perhaps skis DO explain the podium them.
But, how did other Swedes do? Not stellar I think.

Johaug and Bjoergen slacking makes this result look crazier than it really was. On same ski prep as Kalla, I could see Johaug holding on better and not giving up, getting second. She may well have throw a full minute or more there. Even a bronze, with the skis she had on.

There is a chance, and I kind of hope it to be true, that the Swedes as organizers have found ways to get back t the Norweegians always publically belitteling them. Say, start rumors that there will be police raids of waxing cabins, other vehicles, and rooms. I've heard of XC runners packing their bag and racing home when a rumor of anti-doping controls was presented to them. And it's been documented on this forum of even master cyclists avoiding in-competition tests by just getting the heck out of there.
If I were the Swedes, I'd make the life of the Norwegians as difficult as possible. Maybe let electricity fail in their hotel (no freezers). Let a police bus be parked there when they get back from racing. Etc, etc.
That said, it didn't work on the sprint teams. Theories, theories....[/QUOTE]

 

[BullsFan22]

Kalla was well deserving. I don't think any of the Norwegians touch her today, with or without good weather/skis. Diggins had a good race, bib number 37, so she got to ski in some of the falling snow, though certainly not as much as the big favorites. Gregg is the Leanid Karnyenka of Falun (remember him from the 2007 Sapporo 15km which Lars Berger won?). She started right at the front, had very good conditions (compared to the top skiers) and rode her luck. Her best race this year was 47th in a skate sprint. In the Davos 10km skate 2 months ago, she was second to last, over 4 minutes behind Johaug. That pretty much says it all. She was left off the US Olympic team last year, and was definitely better last season (won US nationals 20km mass start by 3:30 minutes). All things equal, she fights for a top 30, maaaaybe a top 20, but nothing more. Sometimes you get lucky enough to be in one of these situations. Nothing wrong with that.