Evans and his meeting with Ferrari?

[blackcat]

No doubt about it he's not. I didn't mean to associate him with Greg, I was just simply using the "if he doped where's the proof" angle.

but for Greg's results, he did not compete againsts O2 vector doping, that came late in his career

 

[86TDFWinner]

but for Greg's results, he did not compete againsts O2 vector doping, that came late in his career

Agreed. Again, I don't want to seem naive about CE, I just don't know either way to make a guess either way. he probably did, but we probably will never know, at least not for awhile anyways(if ever).

His logic is that a rider is clean if there isn't any proof that he is a doper. So obviously Indurain is clean. Simple.

No it isn't, I've said from the get go that i don't know either way.

 

[D-Queued]

... Evans may have been ignorant coming from mtb background at that time in his career. may, thats a qualifier. ...

Got it.

Yes, that needs to be strongly qualified.

By comparison, there have been a few tainted podium mtb contenders from Vancouver Island in BC. It would be really, really hard to suggest that Vancouver Island isn't a bit more of a backwater than Oz.

Anyone who wins the mtb world cup multiple times, one of which was the same year Michael 'the pusher' Rasmussen won the mtb world championship, cannot be viewed as an ignorant simpleton who is not wise to the world of doping.

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

Got it.

Yes, that needs to be strongly qualified.

By comparison, there have been a few tainted podium mtb contenders from Vancouver Island in BC. It would be really, really hard to suggest that Vancouver Island isn't a bit more of a backwater than Oz.

Anyone who wins the mtb world cup multiple times, one of which was the same year Michael 'the pusher' Rasmussen won the mtb world championship, cannot be viewed as an ignorant simpleton who is not wise to the world of doping.

Dave.

fully agree, but this was triangulating the reference to Ferrari and doping and cycling.

But CE decided on Rominger his manager. Either, this is just expedience, and he is ignorant in 2000-2001 of Rominger and doping, and Rominger and Ferrari and doping.

Rominger is quite a disconcerting relationship. Even more so than Ferrari. Rominger has an interest in Evans revenue and income earning potential. Seems a conflict, or a dovetailing of interest no?

 

[sniper]

he said if Evans won the Tour, he would be the greatest rider of his generation. This was just before he passed away. RIP

at that stage, Evans had won Mondrisio worlds and Fleche, but nothing major apart from Romandie. So this is a pretty poor palmares (for wins), for Sassi to say "greatest of his generation". So Sassi was a believer obviously.

thanks for expanding.
generally though, i don't see how the connection to Sassi speaks in Cadel's favor.

 

[D-Queued]

fully agree, but this was triangulating the reference to Ferrari and doping and cycling.

But CE decided on Rominger his manager. Either, this is just expedience, and he is ignorant in 2000-2001 of Rominger and doping, and Rominger and Ferrari and doping.

Rominger is quite a disconcerting relationship. Even more so than Ferrari. Rominger has an interest in Evans revenue and income earning potential. Seems a conflict, or a dovetailing of interest no?

Yes.

Its the probability and possibility thing. Some things are possible. Its the probable things that cause heartburn.

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

Yes.

Its the probability and possibility thing. Some things are possible. Its the probable things that cause heartburn.

Dave.

meant to be (cos it was ambiguous)

expedience
_______versus
dovetailing interests...

actually, that is also false dichotomy. could be "ignorance", which i posited, but you disagreed. Yes, especially coming after 2000 and AIS and australian sport and doping... it would be quite the effort to be "ignorant". so, not really a false dichotomy


edit: actually his expedience could be a coincidence of interest with TR, but with a different premise/underwritten by different principle...

 

[Benotti69]

Got it.

Yes, that needs to be strongly qualified.

By comparison, there have been a few tainted podium mtb contenders from Vancouver Island in BC. It would be really, really hard to suggest that Vancouver Island isn't a bit more of a backwater than Oz.

Anyone who wins the mtb world cup multiple times, one of which was the same year Michael 'the pusher' Rasmussen won the mtb world championship, cannot be viewed as an ignorant simpleton who is not wise to the world of doping.

Dave.

Good point. MTB knew all about juicing!

 

[blackcat]

and doping preparatores go back many decades, and there would be whispers in any backwater peloton, and even fat tyre backwaters like British Columbia

 

[Ferminal]

thanks for expanding.
generally though, i don't see how the connection to Sassi speaks in Cadel's favor.

Indeed... for all we know Sassi was a Carmichael, or worse. There's no reason to believe in the Varese/AIS/Mapei Centre clan any further than you can throw it.

 

[Brooks Fahey Baldwin]

Knowing just what doping does to help you isnt really possible for us. Given that nobody has really looked at how testosterone works with EPO, with HGH etc.

However if we just worked off the reported benefits of EPO, I could get on the program up to about the 50% threshold and probably only have a VO2max of 80.
That would still make me significantly inferior compared to CE.

But then combine that with other programs? Who knows.
However from reading Tyler's book it looks like a lot of programs werent that sophisticated. And remember that his 2011 Tour win was in a year with some remarkably slow climbing speeds.

So I'm not saying that Cadel is clean. But I do think it is possible.


We need to keep in mind that the moral landscape of cycling changed significantly due to the benefits of doping. "Average" pros who werent willing to dope would never make it far and end up stepping away from cycling. So it would make sense that the only few riders who really did take a strong moral stand and stay in cycling would have to be amazing athletes.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Ugh. Again.

VO2 max is only half the story.

Efficiency, % of VO2 at threshold are just as important.

Not to mention recovery during multi-stage races, etc.

VO2 max is not some holy grail of "this value wins or beats all others". Not by a long shot.

 

[Brooks Fahey Baldwin]

Ugh. Again.

VO2 max is only half the story.

Efficiency, % of VO2 at threshold are just as important.

Not to mention recovery during multi-stage races, etc.

VO2 max is not some holy grail of "this value wins or beats all others". Not by a long shot.

Yes I know that. But without any other evidence, its the best we can go on.

 

[Benotti69]

Knowing just what doping does to help you isnt really possible for us. Given that nobody has really looked at how testosterone works with EPO, with HGH etc.

However if we just worked off the reported benefits of EPO, I could get on the program up to about the 50% threshold and probably only have a VO2max of 80.
That would still make me significantly inferior compared to CE.

But then combine that with other programs? Who knows.
However from reading Tyler's book it looks like a lot of programs werent that sophisticated. And remember that his 2011 Tour win was in a year with some remarkably slow climbing speeds.

So I'm not saying that Cadel is clean. But I do think it is possible.


We need to keep in mind that the moral landscape of cycling changed significantly due to the benefits of doping. "Average" pros who werent willing to dope would never make it far and end up stepping away from cycling. So it would make sense that the only few riders who really did take a strong moral stand and stay in cycling would have to be amazing athletes.

LeMond was an average pro?

 

[Brooks Fahey Baldwin]

Lemond didnt ride within the 50% era.

 

[Benotti69]

Lemond didnt ride within the 50% era.

No he rode before it, so when guys were well over 50%......

 

[blackcat]

LeMond was an average pro?

Lemond had most of his best years not competing against O2 vector techniques

 

[blackcat]

We need to keep in mind that the moral landscape of cycling changed significantly due to the benefits of doping. "Average" pros who werent willing to dope would never make it far and end up stepping away from cycling. So it would make sense that the only few riders who really did take a strong moral stand and stay in cycling would have to be amazing athletes.

the average pros like Bassons would have a mighty palmares. The water carriers could have actually had a palmares rather than a footnote.

what you are saying, that by the definition of "moral" and "morality", in the O2 vector era, in the Clinic's definition, morality and lack thereof, was prescribed, determined, and it it was a barrier to entry, and a selective sample on entering the peloton. Or atleast, the pointy end of the peloton, where one competes for the spoils.

If you cant compete in this era because you cant access O2 technique, the premise is you either leave the sport, and maintain the status of a version of morality, or by staying in the sport and taking O2 dope, you lose any status of morality, but maintain the status of pro, without just leaving the sport behind.

This does not leave a shade or nuance tho, and I do not think it is an either-or problem.

 

[blackcat]

Ugh. Again.

VO2 max is only half the story.

Efficiency, % of VO2 at threshold are just as important.

Not to mention recovery during multi-stage races, etc.

VO2 max is not some holy grail of "this value wins or beats all others". Not by a long shot.

VO2m held as the imprimatur of talent, got great thrust and promotion because of Greg's defense of himself versus Lance. Greg may have been a champion, he was, no doubt, and he may have been a cut throat A type personality on the bike, just less of a b-stard than Hinault, and he may indeed be a genuine nice guy, off the bike. But he is not the smartest person in the room. He got all the talents in his legs and heart.

 

[D-Queued]

LeMond was an average pro?

Lemond had most of his best years not competing against O2 vector techniques

Leveraging from a few other threads and currently popular explanations:

So, yes, LeMond was clearly just an average pro. Only good pros have the benefit of the genetic evolutionary advancements since LeMond's time and marginal gains from advanced training techniques to compete against O2 vector techniques.



That genetic evolution crap is almost enough to make you want to embrace creationism. As for marginal gains, you'd think that LeMond, Hinault, and Merckx, etc. were all riding with square wheels or something.

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

and to clarify for others that may read an ambiguity into D-Q's quote of Benotti and me(blackcat's) posts there... we are completely deferential to Lemond's generational talent, just making emphasis that said talent was neutralised in his crepuscular days with others charging.

DearWiggo good grief!

 

[Escarabajo]

Ugh. Again.

VO2 max is only half the story.

Efficiency, % of VO2 at threshold are just as important.

Not to mention recovery during multi-stage races, etc.

VO2 max is not some holy grail of "this value wins or beats all others". Not by a long shot.

Absolutely.

But it is a requirement to have it high. It does not mean you will be a great rider but you need to have it in order to have the potential at least.

 

[blackcat]

Absolutely.

But it is a requirement to have it high. It does not mean you will be a great rider but you need to have it in order to have the potential at least.

but Coyle can improve your efficiency, by lets say, an arbitrary 25%

good grief

sounds legit

 

[Dear Wiggo]

but Coyle can improve your efficiency, by lets say, an arbitrary 25%

good grief

sounds legit

sample size of 1 FTW!

 

[blackcat]

sample size of 1 FTW!

has he revised his paper in the wake of Armstrong's admission. we should shame this wild catter, no, actually we are too gud for that hue and cry. Lets just pay him out here. Be ashame if he has tenure in Austin tho. almost willing to forgive if they play Parquet Courts at Mellow Johnny's

Boston Garden dont think Betsy Stoned and Starving thats Yellow Rose not Mellow Johnny's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5CvZTIoir8