Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Krzysztof_O]

I agree entirely. Vingegaard is extremely ambitious & Jumbo is quite happy to feed that ambition from the moment they're winning.

Sucks for Rog though. When the season planning was decided, Roglič specifically wanted sole team leadership so he was sent to the Giro, which he won. So he fulfilled his side of the bargain. He then asked if he could go to the Tour & the team said no (based on whatever Rog's demands were). Now Vingegaard says he wants to do the Vuelta as co leader & the team says yes. Good for Jumbo, bad for Rog.

It's the little stuff which Rog benefitted from in the Giro which really takes a hit in a co-leader scenario, like dedicated support in the bunch, how many guys will drop back & pull if something bad happens, what the strategy is on certain stages (offensive or defensive), i.e. stuff like that.

But, as the French say it's "la dure loi du sport", i.e. the hard laws of sport, which means top athletes want the top prizes & there's nothing anyone can do about it. The strongest wins. Roglič gets to test himself versus the double Tour champ on his own home turf, aka the Spanish playas. Now he just needs to stealthily introduce a few cervezas into Vingegaard's bidons on rest day & victory might just be within reach.

I'm not sure it was just a spontaneous decision by Vingegaard. JV does everything according to the plan. I think it was the plan to give Rogla a sole leadership at the Giro and possibly a joint leadership at the Vuelta (if Vinge feels ok at the end of the Tour).

 

[theyoungest]

According to Jumbo.

But if that's the case (i.e. Vingegaard & Rog as co-leaders at the Vuelta), why did Roglič ask to go to the Tour this year after the Giro?

He evidently wouldn't do all 3 GT's. If the plan was always Rog at the Giro, Vingegaard at the Tour & both at the Vuelta, then Roglič sure did go off script a little after the Giro with his TdF request.

Just some food for thought.

Basically, you believe none of what Jumbo are saying, and everything that's speculated elsewhere. Of course you're free to do so, but I think Giro-Vuelta for Roglic and Tour-Vuelta for Vingegaard would have seemed very logical in December so I have no need to doubt this statement. That it doesn't correspond with what you would have liked to see, yeah... that's not Jumbo's fault of course.

 

[Rackham]

Basically, you believe none of what Jumbo are saying, and everything that's speculated elsewhere. Of course you're free to do so, but I think Giro-Vuelta for Roglic and Tour-Vuelta for Vingegaard would have seemed very logical in December so I have no need to doubt this statement. That it doesn't correspond with what you would have liked to see, yeah... that's not Jumbo's fault of course.

I just view things as they are based on what I see with my own eyes, not based upon a team press release after the fact, i.e. Rog said he considered going to the Tour after the Giro, so it really doesn't sound like the "Vingegaard + Rog as co-leaders in the Vuelta" plan was set in stone. But tbh despite the tone of your post which implies I'm on an anti-Jumbo crusade or something, I'm actually quite ambivalent.

A GT is always a hard race, with or without Vingegaard. One thing is for sure: Roglič will be super motivated. It's good for the spectators as well (even the guys on the TdF Eurosport commentary team sound hyped for August).

We'll also see whether Red Rick's older theory is valid, i.e. which is Rog stands a better chance of beating Vingegaard when he's on the same team.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Definitely hurts Roglic’s chances IMO. But I’ll be happy to watch him at full force against all the big competition except Pogi. Maybe he’ll jump in, too.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So the reigning Vuetla, Giro and Tour champions going for the Vuelta crown this year. A rather prestigious win for the taking if you ask me. Do wonder if such potential prize can lure in Pogi.

On top of that at JV there is still a lot of candidates that would like to make it into the team. For example Tratnik is already training with Rogla. Kuss would in my opinion like to go for the triple super-dom crown ... All in all more candidates then places available. Hence a selection will need to be made.

Will the presence of Jonas help Rogla to win this years Vuetla edition or not? I guess best to wait and see. It's inevitable if they both stay in this team. For both of them going for GT GC.

Lets hence see how that pans out at Vuelta. For Rogla i would say prepare good and focus on winning. The rest the road will decide.

 

[Gargamel35]

They can still pull Roglič out to make room for another rider.

That was a joke, but not so far fetched with Jumbo bosses.

 

[Peter von]

According to Jumbo.

But if that's the case (i.e. Vingegaard & Rog as co-leaders at the Vuelta), why did Roglič ask to go to the Tour this year after the Giro?

Ultimately we don’t know, maybe he hoped Vingegaard would feel tired, maybe it just fitted better with his personal life.

My guess: Rogla knew that he would never be 100% at the Tour after the Giro, this way he has the preparation advantage over Vingegaard.

 

[Rackham]

Ultimately we don’t know, maybe he hoped Vingegaard would feel tired, maybe it just fitted better with his personal life.

My guess: Rogla knew that he would never be 100% at the Tour after the Giro, this way he has the preparation advantage over Vingegaard.

In my opinion Jumbo are about to test the limits of #samenwinnen.

They've never gone into a race with a situation like this before, i.e. Vingegaard has changed dimension since last year & Rog really wants that 4th Vuelta. It's not like in the TdF 2022 when beating Pog was a sort of "all hands on deck, man your battle stations" focal point for the entire team to get behind, with personal ambitions taking a back seat based on the 'big picture'.

Here there's a real chance they step on each other's toes & a teammate battle on various climbs can even benefit someone else (like Evenepoel). So I don't subscribe to the propaganda whereby everything will be hunky-dory in the land of Jumbo's win togetherism, not in a race like the Vuelta. For example when there's only two of them left in the bunch, who pulls for who? Or if Vingegaard has his TdF legs & he drops everyone on the Angliru, what does Rog do if he's less than a minute behind in GC? Surrender? Wave the white flag? Last year he was over a minute behind Evenepoel & was still launching attacks wherever, whenever.

I don't know what will happen for sure but the potential for a soured situation is there & it'll start with the online discourse where fans will be throwing grenades at each other when their favorite rider impedes the other.

 

[meat puppet]

Rogla is smart so he can put 1+1 together. Assuming he knew Vingo's calendar and form, coming second in the Tour must have been preferable to coming second in the Vuelta.

 

[Rackham]

Rogla is smart so he can put 1+1 together. Assuming he knew Vingo's calendar and form, coming second in the Tour must have been preferable to coming second in the Vuelta.

Some people here were saying "winning the Vuelta is much better than a podium in the Tour!".

I wonder what they're thinking now.

 

[Peter von]

In my opinion Jumbo are about to test the limits of #samenwinnen.

They've never gone into a race with a situation like this before, i.e. Vingegaard has changed dimension since last year & Rog really wants that 4th Vuelta. It's not like in the TdF 2022 when beating Pog was a sort of "all hands on deck, man your battle stations" focal point for the entire team to get behind, with personal ambitions taking a back seat based on the 'big picture'.

Here there's a real chance they step on each other's toes & a teammate battle on various climbs can even benefit someone else (like Evenepoel). So I don't subscribe to the propaganda whereby everything will be hunky-dory in the land of Jumbo's win togetherism, not in a race like the Vuelta. For example when there's only two of them left in the bunch, who pulls for who? Or if Vingegaard has his TdF legs & he drops everyone on the Angliru, what does Rog do if he's less than a minute behind in GC? Surrender? Wave the white flag? Last year he was over a minute behind Evenepoel & was still launching attacks wherever, whenever.

I don't know what will happen for sure but the potential for a soured situation is there & it'll start with the online discourse where fans will be throwing grenades at each other when their favorite rider impedes the other.

oh for sure. The risk is pretty high of that.
The Vuelta is not the Tour and Remco is not Pogi, certainly not defending double tdf champ Pogi.

It helps that they probably have the strongest team if we count G out of the favorites pool. So they shouldn't have too many situations where their two leaders really needs to sort out who is more leader.

 

[bNator]

I actually think this is an opportunity for Rogla to reestablish himself as a real TDF contender. I mean let’s be frank here - he has a real upper hand here with preparation as Vinge should be exhausted by the end of Vuelta. If he can’t beat him here, he will never beat him in TDF both having optimum prep - no matter the teams.

If he does beat however, he will reinforce his brand substantially and he will simply have to be in the next years Tour. It’s up to him now. He must deliver. I hope and believe he will.

 

[dazaau]

I actually think this is an opportunity for Rogla to reestablish himself as a real TDF contender. I mean let’s be frank here - he has a real upper hand here with preparation as Vinge should be exhausted by the end of Vuelta. If he can’t beat him here, he will never beat him in TDF both having optimum prep - no matter the teams.

If he does beat however, he will reinforce his brand substantially and he will simply have to be in the next years Tour. It’s up to him now. He must deliver. I hope and believe he will.

Forgive my lack of faith, I'm a big Rogla fan, but I can't see how Roglic would ever be at the level we see for peak Jonas to be honest.

#samewinning is doomed at the vuelta. I hope Jonas fades following a massive tour and Roglic is on point.

 

[Red Rick]

If he gets cleaned hard by Vingegaard it's just time to move the annual farming holiday to Italian Peninsula permanently

 

[theyoungest]

In my opinion Jumbo are about to test the limits of #samenwinnen.

They've never gone into a race with a situation like this before, i.e. Vingegaard has changed dimension since last year & Rog really wants that 4th Vuelta. It's not like in the TdF 2022 when beating Pog was a sort of "all hands on deck, man your battle stations" focal point for the entire team to get behind, with personal ambitions taking a back seat based on the 'big picture'.

Here there's a real chance they step on each other's toes & a teammate battle on various climbs can even benefit someone else (like Evenepoel). So I don't subscribe to the propaganda whereby everything will be hunky-dory in the land of Jumbo's win togetherism, not in a race like the Vuelta. For example when there's only two of them left in the bunch, who pulls for who? Or if Vingegaard has his TdF legs & he drops everyone on the Angliru, what does Rog do if he's less than a minute behind in GC? Surrender? Wave the white flag? Last year he was over a minute behind Evenepoel & was still launching attacks wherever, whenever.

I don't know what will happen for sure but the potential for a soured situation is there & it'll start with the online discourse where fans will be throwing grenades at each other when their favorite rider impedes the other.

I think neither Roglic nor Vingegaard gives a damn about the online discourse. So that's one problem you won't have to worry about.

I think it all depends on the form Vingegaard brings. If he's anywhere close to his Tour form, I'm sorry but there's nothing Roglic can do about it. If he's not, we have a race, but then probably everyone is a bit closer so it actually helps to have two strong leaders rather than one.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

A lot will depend on Vingegaard's form, which is actually enigma. He's never done two GTs back to back but I suppose he's feeling well enough to try. A lot has been said about his recovery so we will see if it's that superb. Judging by their decisions it looks like Vinge is not as gassed as Pogacar at least. I don't expect Vinge to be as strong as at the Tour but then again: the abyss between him and normal guys was so big that he has some margin of worsening for sure. Maybe he will be very strong in the first part of the Vuelta but will get more tired later? No idea what level we should expect actually.

 

[dazaau]

I think neither Roglic nor Vingegaard gives a damn about the online discourse. So that's one problem you won't have to worry about.

I think it all depends on the form Vingegaard brings. If he's anywhere close to his Tour form, I'm sorry but there's nothing Roglic can do about it. If he's not, we have a race, but then probably everyone is a bit closer so it actually helps to have two strong leaders rather than one.

Yes, they don't care about online discourse.

They do care about winning. And only one can win. And there is no way roglic is thinking "as long as someone from JV wins, I'm happy"

It won't be Lance and Contador, but I can't see it being a bed of roses.

 

[Red Rick]

Yes, they don't care about online discourse.

They do care about winning. And only one can win. And there is no way roglic is thinking "as long as someone from JV wins, I'm happy"

It won't be Lance and Contador, but I can't see it being a bed of roses.

It's gonna be really fun if the DS tells them to sit tight until Kuss drops off but they get dropped by GC Kuss at the same time.

 

[Gargamel35]

I see them looking at each other and Remco going up gaining time.
If not, one of them will be only 1B and need to cover other guys moves so 1A can sit comfortably not loosing any strength. If that is the case i'm very worried Roglič will be that 1B.

 

[Rackham]

I see them looking at each other and Remco going up gaining time.
If not, one of them will be only 1B and need to cover other guys moves so 1A can sit comfortably not loosing any strength. If that is the case i'm very worried Roglič will be that 1B.

Rog has a reputation to uphold, i.e. a reputation of "he never works for his teammates & he's selfish!".

Just ask the Belgians. But seriously, throwing himself under a bus & pulling for a teammate is not exactly his forte. He did it for Vingegaard in the Tour (when all was already lost) & in Itzulia last year when he'd fallen out of GC contention because of a knee injury. But he's just not an efficient helper (he's a sniper who stays concealed until he punches out, i.e. that's when he's at his best).

Here's what I think we can expect in Spain: a Jumbo team which isn't as strong (I love Gesink but he's no Wout van Aert), despite their two strong leaders. So they won't have the collective power to demolish the race like in the Tour. In that respect it's going to be a bit like the Giro. So I can see Vingegaard & Rog together in a small bunch with stage finales similar to what happened on Markstein on Saturday in the Tour. Except on worse road surfaces & in even hotter weather.

And yes, fans will bicker a lot. Accusations of selfishness will be widespread on both sides & stages will often resemble stage 2 of the 2023 TdF (when Vingegaard & Wout van Aert had their little 'misunderstanding' in San Sebastian).

I can't wait!

 

[Gargamel35]

Rog has a reputation to uphold, i.e. a reputation of "he never works for his teammates & he's selfish!".

Just ask the Belgians. But seriously, throwing himself under a bus & pulling for a teammate is not exactly his forte. He did it for Vingegaard in the Tour (when all was already lost) & in Itzulia last year when he'd fallen out of GC contention because of a knee injury. But he's just not an efficient helper (he's a sniper who stays concealed until he punches out, i.e. that's when he's at his best).

Here's what I think we can expect in Spain: a Jumbo team which isn't as strong (I love Gesink but he's no Wout van Aert), despite their two strong leaders. So they won't have the collective power to demolish the race like in the Tour. In that respect it's going to be a bit like the Giro. So I can see Vingegaard & Rog together in a small bunch with stage finales similar to what happened on Markstein on Saturday in the Tour. Except on worse road surfaces & in even hotter weather.

And yes, fans will bicker a lot. Accusations of selfishness will be widespread on both sides & stages will often resemble stage 2 of the 2023 TdF (when Vingegaard & Wout van Aert had their little 'misunderstanding' in San Sebastian).

I can't wait!

We could avoid all this if Roglič just crashes somewhere in first three stages.

 

[Rackham]

We could avoid all this if Roglič just crashes somewhere in first three stages.

That's not happening. He crashed twice in the Giro already (& had another scare on a descent in the Naples stage).

His crash quota is full already & no amount of talking about it can jinx him. This one (aka the Vuelta) is going all the way down to the wire. I expect Evenepoel to be at his best, Vingegaard to have a very high level & Ayuso + Almeida to be there or thereabouts in contention.

 

[Red Rick]

Valter, Kelderman and Kuss shoud be quite strong for setting the pace before any attacks fly. And because they are with 2 of them, it should be slighly less of a problem if it comes off a slightly weaker pace. Also a lot of the climbs are steeper than at the Tour so not having a long, blistering pace before attacking is in cases not the worst issue in the world. Then a few of the MTF are so soft they're fairly certain to be uphill sprints where I would think Vingegaard should just lead out Roglic or do a reverse leadout if it comes to that.

 

[Rob5091]

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...he-has-to-leave-jumbo-visma-says-chris-horner
Horner thinks if Roglic wants a crack at the Tour as team leader then he's got to move away from Jumbo. Roglic is 34 in October (and under contract with Jumbo until 2025) so it'll take some real cash and a bit of a gamble if he's going to go up against Pogacar & Vingegaard. My 2 shekels worth is, that it sounds like a bad idea.

 

[theyoungest]

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...he-has-to-leave-jumbo-visma-says-chris-horner
Horner thinks if Roglic wants a crack at the Tour as team leader then he's got to move away from Jumbo. Roglic is 34 in October (and under contract with Jumbo until 2025) so it'll take some real cash and a bit of a gamble if he's going to go up against Pogacar & Vingegaard. My 2 shekels worth is, that it sounds like a bad idea.

What an original opinion by mr. Horner. Does he also have an explanation as to why this would increase Roglic' chances to win the Tour? I haven't heard any.