Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Parker]

Re: Re:

I think that is a little more unusual for any champion to be totally anonymous for 4 years and 8 months, and then BANG, he gets 2nd at La Vuelta, and ends up winning 4 Tours + Vuelta in only five years. In fact I think it is unheard of!

He wasn't anonymous. You just didn't notice him. For example, he had steadily improved throughout 2011 with promising but erratic performances.

If you think it is all down to doping why has no-one else done it in the same time frame? I mean, there's this outsider from a non-cycling country with no contacts and little money who somehow gets a doping programme that takes him from 'pack-fodder' (not my phrase) to a consistent champion. And no-one else does it? That's the most unbelievable story of them all.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I think that is a little more unusual for any champion to be totally anonymous for 4 years and 8 months, and then BANG, he gets 2nd at La Vuelta, and ends up winning 4 Tours + Vuelta in only five years. In fact I think it is unheard of!

He wasn't anonymous. You just didn't notice him. For example, he had steadily improved throughout 2011 with promising but erratic performances.

If you think it is all down to doping why has no-one else done it in the same time frame? I mean, there's this outsider from a non-cycling country with no contacts and little money who somehow gets a doping programme that takes him from 'pack-fodder' (not my phrase) to a consistent champion. And no-one else does it? That's the most unbelievable story of them all.

According to David Walsh he once beat Tour de France champion Alberto Contador on a mountain top finish. Forget the fact that it was a 4km climb in a 2.2 race and Contador punctured 3 Times! :lol:

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I think that is a little more unusual for any champion to be totally anonymous for 4 years and 8 months, and then BANG, he gets 2nd at La Vuelta, and ends up winning 4 Tours + Vuelta in only five years. In fact I think it is unheard of!

He wasn't anonymous. You just didn't notice him. For example, he had steadily improved throughout 2011 with promising but erratic performances.

If you think it is all down to doping why has no-one else done it in the same time frame? I mean, there's this outsider from a non-cycling country with no contacts and little money who somehow gets a doping programme that takes him from 'pack-fodder' (not my phrase) to a consistent champion. And no-one else does it? That's the most unbelievable story of them all.

You not followed this sport for long have you. Joined in 2010?

How come Lance won 7 in a row and no else was doing it?

By the way he was anonymous. He only got to ride the '11 Vuelta due to a team rider being ill and having to pull out. Froome couldn't even make the team of the 3rd important GT in what you claim was not an anonymous season for him. I suppose Sky just didn't notice Froome. :lol:

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

I think that is a little more unusual for any champion to be totally anonymous for 4 years and 8 months, and then BANG, he gets 2nd at La Vuelta, and ends up winning 4 Tours + Vuelta in only five years. In fact I think it is unheard of!

He wasn't anonymous. You just didn't notice him. For example, he had steadily improved throughout 2011 with promising but erratic performances.

If you think it is all down to doping why has no-one else done it in the same time frame? I mean, there's this outsider from a non-cycling country with no contacts and little money who somehow gets a doping programme that takes him from 'pack-fodder' (not my phrase) to a consistent champion. And no-one else does it? That's the most unbelievable story of them all.

He was anonymous, for a guy who will end up on a GT podium. Ian Boswell for example is a mega-prospect rider nowadays, comparing to Froome back then.

And no, I don't think it is all down to doping, at least to regular doping. Although it started with that. And then the motors came... And protection from highest places possible, like with some American fellow not so long ago. That's why no one else does it, like no one did in Armstrong era, yet everybody doped. The protection is the key here. And it's not unbelievable story at all, we've seen it before. Although the motors thing is new.., I guess.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

He was anonymous, for a guy who will end up on a GT podium. Ian Boswell for example is a mega-prospect rider nowadays, comparing to Froome back then.

Boswell has been a pro for five seasons. Froome had two GC runner-up spots by then. In his first season Froome scored 253 points on the CQ Rankings (high for a debutant). Boswell has never scored that many

And no, I don't think it is all down to doping, at least to regular doping. Although it started with that. And then the motors came... And protection from highest places possible, like with some American fellow not so long ago. That's why no one else does it, like no one did in Armstrong era, yet everybody doped. The protection is the key here. And it's not unbelievable story at all, we've seen it before. Although the motors thing is new.., I guess.

So this anonymous rider, out of contract at Sky managed to get 'protection from the highest places possible'. Take a step back and think about how stupid you sound. If your conspiracy doesn't make sense, adding another layer of conspiracy won't make it more sensible.

 

[noddy69]

Re: Re:

According to the flat TT analysis I made quite some time ago, Froome made an approximately 15% boost to his FTP. Error bars are pretty big, ~5%, but the results were statistically significant based on a paired T-test. This change occurred over a three week period and was permanent. The only thing left to fight over is which explanation fits best.

I've told you the best explanation several times. Riders who aren't specialists or challenging for GC don't ride full gas in Time Trials. Your analysis is fatally flawed. The fact that you won't even consider this option says more about you than it does about Froome.

Seems appropriate to post this again:

'Full gas' TT results (championship or final stage):

B World Championships 2007 - 2nd (behind TT monster Mai Haijun)
U23 World Championships 2007 - 41st
Giro del Capo 2008 Stage 5 - 7th
Giro 2009 Stage 21 - 31st
World Championships 2009 - 17th
Eneco Tour 2010 Stage 7 - 71st
UK National Championships 2010 - 2nd (no World Tour/Pro Continental riders outside the top three)
Commonwealth Games 2010 - 5th (behind a 19-year-old Durbridge and 'Dr Hutch')
Vuelta a Murcia 2011 - 18th
Tour de Suisse 2011 - 9th

One top ten against strong opposition (bolded). Failed to win a single TT against even relatively weak opposition.

By way of comparison, his Grand Tour ITT results from the 2011 Vuelta onwards: 2, 11, 2, 3, 2, 1, 10, 63, 39, 2, 1, 1, 6, 3.

Nothing short of a Jekyll and Hyde transformation.

behind TT monster Mai Haijun....I spit my coffee all over the computer screen...bravo that made my day

I think the TT rresults show how ludicrous the transformation was. If the sudden GT prowess isn't enough that is.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

behind TT monster Mai Haijun....I spit my coffee all over the computer screen...bravo that made my day

I think the TT rresults show how ludicrous the transformation was. If the sudden GT prowess isn't enough that is.

The following month Haijun did the Olympic test event time trial, where he finished only 5 seconds behind Nibali (and only a minute behind three time world champion Mick Rogers). He was good rider.

As for Froome he finished 14th in the final TT of the Tour de France in his debut season. There was clear TT talent there.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

He was anonymous, for a guy who will end up on a GT podium. Ian Boswell for example is a mega-prospect rider nowadays, comparing to Froome back then.

Boswell has been a pro for five seasons. Froome had two GC runner-up spots by then. In his first season Froome scored 253 points on the CQ Rankings (high for a debutant). Boswell has never scored that many

And no, I don't think it is all down to doping, at least to regular doping. Although it started with that. And then the motors came... And protection from highest places possible, like with some American fellow not so long ago. That's why no one else does it, like no one did in Armstrong era, yet everybody doped. The protection is the key here. And it's not unbelievable story at all, we've seen it before. Although the motors thing is new.., I guess.

So this anonymous rider, out of contract at Sky managed to get 'protection from the highest places possible'. Take a step back and think about how stupid you sound. If your conspiracy doesn't make sense, adding another layer of conspiracy won't make it more sensible.

Go back a little and read more carefully. I said it started with regular doping (at La Vuelta, in his own and Michelle's arrangement). After that he gets protection from almighty Sky empire as Wiggins wingman, but it becomes apparent that he reacts much better to program than Wiggo. And so in 2013 comes the motors thing, because they were afraid of Contador who didn't race at the Tour 2012, but won Vuelta right after his return (beating Froome in the process). After that is a stuff of legends :lol:

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

Go back a little and read more carefully. I said it started with regular doping (at La Vuelta, in his own and Michelle's arrangement). After that he gets protection from almighty Sky empire as Wiggins wingman, but it becomes apparent that he reacts much better to program than Wiggo. And so in 2013 comes the motors thing, because they were afraid of Contador who didn't race at the Tour 2012, but won Vuelta right after his return (beating Froome in the process). After that is a stuff of legends :lol:

Oh, god. This is all about some Contador fandom is it? I suppose the other riders that beat Contador in 2013 all had motors too. And everyone who has beaten him since.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

According to the flat TT analysis I made quite some time ago, Froome made an approximately 15% boost to his FTP. Error bars are pretty big, ~5%, but the results were statistically significant based on a paired T-test. This change occurred over a three week period and was permanent. The only thing left to fight over is which explanation fits best.

I've told you the best explanation several times. Riders who aren't specialists or challenging for GC don't ride full gas in Time Trials. Your analysis is fatally flawed. The fact that you won't even consider this option says more about you than it does about Froome.

Seems appropriate to post this again:

'Full gas' TT results (championship or final stage):

B World Championships 2007 - 2nd (behind TT monster Mai Haijun)
U23 World Championships 2007 - 41st
Giro del Capo 2008 Stage 5 - 7th
Giro 2009 Stage 21 - 31st
World Championships 2009 - 17th
Eneco Tour 2010 Stage 7 - 71st
UK National Championships 2010 - 2nd (no World Tour/Pro Continental riders outside the top three)
Commonwealth Games 2010 - 5th (behind a 19-year-old Durbridge and 'Dr Hutch')
Vuelta a Murcia 2011 - 18th
Tour de Suisse 2011 - 9th

One top ten against strong opposition (bolded). Failed to win a single TT against even relatively weak opposition.

By way of comparison, his Grand Tour ITT results from the 2011 Vuelta onwards: 2, 11, 2, 3, 2, 1, 10, 63, 39, 2, 1, 1, 6, 3.

Nothing short of a Jekyll and Hyde transformation.

behind TT monster Mai Haijun....I spit my coffee all over the computer screen...bravo that made my day

I think the TT rresults show how ludicrous the transformation was. If the sudden GT prowess isn't enough that is.

No mention of his mighty 2006 Commonwealth Games effort in sandshoes?

 

[Escarabajo]

Is Parker really being serious? I am not sure!

 

[thehog]

Re:

Is Parker really being serious? I am not sure!

I think he might be, 2012 was a great year, the birth of the Skybot

 

[Bronstein]

Re: Re:

By who?

Claudio Corti the boss of Barloworld for one. The British cycling media made out that he was a future GC contender when he changed nationality. The one vague contact I had in cycling at the time also said it.

Yet the mastermind didn't. Why?:

 

[Bronstein]

Re: Re:

Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.

Climbing stages:
169th
73rd
142nd
46th
115th
125th
136th
30th

He finished 11'41" behind the winner on Alpe d'Huez. The riders who finished immediately after him were largely domestiques (Ten Dam, Lopez, Vansummeren, Popovych, Astarloza, etc).

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

Go back a little and read more carefully. I said it started with regular doping (at La Vuelta, in his own and Michelle's arrangement). After that he gets protection from almighty Sky empire as Wiggins wingman, but it becomes apparent that he reacts much better to program than Wiggo. And so in 2013 comes the motors thing, because they were afraid of Contador who didn't race at the Tour 2012, but won Vuelta right after his return (beating Froome in the process). After that is a stuff of legends :lol:

Oh, god. This is all about some Contador fandom is it? I suppose the other riders that beat Contador in 2013 all had motors too. And everyone who has beaten him since.

Again you're not reading carefully. Motors can be used only by they who have protection on highest places, and we all know who are they. Even you... :lol:

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.

That's a sleight of hand. He was a first year pro because he hadn't been good enough earlier to get a pro contract. Its not like he started riding that year. He was 23 years old. His contemporaries nibali and schleck were performing 10 x better.

Pretty much everyone not named bjarne riis was better at that age.

Haha, you pick and choose your statistics so blatantly I'm assuming your "contact in the cycling world" is brailsfrauds friend Alistair Campbell.
When you figured out Froome was easily old enough in 2008 to not be finishing 10 minutes down on his best stage, you quickly changed it to "first year pro", even though being a First year pro also doesn't excuse the world's greatest talent finishing so far behind on their good days and so much worse on their bad days.

Edit: I think actually bjarne was also better at that age too

 

[spalco]

Re: Re:

There is a Froome thread from 2011 Vuelta named “No way Froome and Sky are clean”. Many Skyfans at the time were stating how Froome was about to “drop off” as he had done all his hard work in the first week helping Wiggins

Sorry if this is somewhat offtopic, but does anyone know if the Vuelta 2011 eurosport broadcast is available somewhere on the internet (preferably streaming)? I looked around last summer but didn't find anything. Should be amusing to watch with what we know now.

 

[deviant]

Re:

I must be reading something different - My interpretation is Deviant is clearly stating that Froome is using a variety of substances - some legal/some banned which accounts for some of his improved performance - I also suspect Deviant is implying Froome is using new substances which aren't even on WADA's radar yet, which in coming years may be banned - It's like some here are arguing with themselves.

Bingo.

...it wasnt so hard to understand was it?!

I believe Froome is doping, have said that before and i'll say it again, i believe he and Sky are at the cutting edge...what i dont believe is the motor doping accusations, thats all.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.

Climbing stages:
169th
73rd
142nd
46th
115th
125th
136th
30th

He finished 11'41" behind the winner on Alpe d'Huez. The riders who finished immediately after him were largely domestiques (Ten Dam, Lopez, Vansummeren, Popovych, Astarloza, etc).

All Froome showed in 2008 was that he wasn’t entirely out of his depth. Let’s look at what some other first year pros achieved:

Jan Ulrich: National TT Champion, 2nd Tour de Limousin at 21

Alberto Contador: 1st Tour de Pologne ITT, 4th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 22

Andy Schleck: National TT Champion, 3rd National RR, 7th GP de Wallonie, 9th 4 Days of Dunkirk at 20

Cadel Evans: 1st Tour of Austria + 2 stages, 1st Brixia Tour + stage, 6th Giro dell Appenino, 8th Bayern Rundhfart at 23

Vincenzo Nibali: 2nd stage 6 Tour de Suisse, 4th National TT, 6th Milan-Torino at 20

Nairo Quintana: mountain class. Volta Catalunya, 15th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 21

THIS is what talent looks like.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

By who?

Claudio Corti the boss of Barloworld for one. The British cycling media made out that he was a future GC contender when he changed nationality. The one vague contact I had in cycling at the time also said it.

and one of his peers dan martin

i'm sure his ex-manager had no financial interest in bigging him up and that the british media don't write puff pieces for whatever SDB tells them....

 

[noddy69]

Re: Re:

Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.

Climbing stages:
169th
73rd
142nd
46th
115th
125th
136th
30th

He finished 11'41" behind the winner on Alpe d'Huez. The riders who finished immediately after him were largely domestiques (Ten Dam, Lopez, Vansummeren, Popovych, Astarloza, etc).

All Froome showed in 2008 was that he wasn’t entirely out of his depth. Let’s look at what some other first year pros achieved:

Jan Ulrich: National TT Champion, 2nd Tour de Limousin at 21

Alberto Contador: 1st Tour de Pologne ITT, 4th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 22

Andy Schleck: National TT Champion, 3rd National RR, 7th GP de Wallonie, 9th 4 Days of Dunkirk at 20

Cadel Evans: 1st Tour of Austria + 2 stages, 1st Brixia Tour + stage, 6th Giro dell Appenino, 8th Bayern Rundhfart at 23

Vincenzo Nibali: 2nd stage 6 Tour de Suisse, 4th National TT, 6th Milan-Torino at 20

Nairo Quintana: mountain class. Volta Catalunya, 15th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 21

THIS is what talent looks like.

Or that is what doping early in your career looks like. Lets be fair here, we are calling out how obvious it was Chris started late in life and how ridiculous it is that he hasn't been caught due to that. The list above have probably taken more over their careers, they were clever/lucky enough t belong to the old brigade where doping was the norm from the off-rather than the unusual route Froome took. All doping bar none. In fact Schleck is like Froome in reverse...doped to the gills early and a tragic descent later on for no apparant reason.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

All Froome showed in 2008 was that he wasn’t entirely out of his depth. Let’s look at what some other first year pros achieved:

Jan Ulrich: National TT Champion, 2nd Tour de Limousin at 21

Alberto Contador: 1st Tour de Pologne ITT, 4th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 22

Andy Schleck: National TT Champion, 3rd National RR, 7th GP de Wallonie, 9th 4 Days of Dunkirk at 20

Cadel Evans: 1st Tour of Austria + 2 stages, 1st Brixia Tour + stage, 6th Giro dell Appenino, 8th Bayern Rundhfart at 23

Vincenzo Nibali: 2nd stage 6 Tour de Suisse, 4th National TT, 6th Milan-Torino at 20

Nairo Quintana: mountain class. Volta Catalunya, 15th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 21

THIS is what talent looks like.

OK let's look at some of their backgrounds.

Ullrich - product of the East German sports schools
Schleck - son of an ex-pro, surrounded by cycling his entire life
Evans - part of AIS aged 17
Nibali - family moved to join junior team aged 16
(I know little of Contador and Quintana's background)

Froome - started racing at 18. Still a full time economics student aged 20. Came from a country that has never produced another pro cyclist, grew up in a country that had produced about two.

Those other riders merely had earlier and easier opportunities

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

By who?

Claudio Corti the boss of Barloworld for one. The British cycling media made out that he was a future GC contender when he changed nationality. The one vague contact I had in cycling at the time also said it.

Yet the mastermind didn't. Why?:

That Graph is fabulous. Cant see it enough. Wigan's doesn't even make top 5 of their predictions either and Froome, jeepers, that is embarrassing to place no higher achievement then pro conti podium..... :lol:

I hope Froome has that framed in his house.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

That Graph is fabulous. Cant see it enough. Wigan's doesn't even make top 5 of their predictions either and Froome, jeepers, that is embarrassing to place no higher achievement then pro conti podium..... :lol:

I hope Froome has that framed in his house.

It doesn't show predictions. It shows actual performances from 2010.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

All Froome showed in 2008 was that he wasn’t entirely out of his depth. Let’s look at what some other first year pros achieved:

Jan Ulrich: National TT Champion, 2nd Tour de Limousin at 21

Alberto Contador: 1st Tour de Pologne ITT, 4th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 22

Andy Schleck: National TT Champion, 3rd National RR, 7th GP de Wallonie, 9th 4 Days of Dunkirk at 20

Cadel Evans: 1st Tour of Austria + 2 stages, 1st Brixia Tour + stage, 6th Giro dell Appenino, 8th Bayern Rundhfart at 23

Vincenzo Nibali: 2nd stage 6 Tour de Suisse, 4th National TT, 6th Milan-Torino at 20

Nairo Quintana: mountain class. Volta Catalunya, 15th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 21

THIS is what talent looks like.

OK let's look at some of their backgrounds.

Ullrich - product of the East German sports schools
Schleck - son of an ex-pro, surrounded by cycling his entire life
Evans - part of AIS aged 17
Nibali - family moved to join junior team aged 16
(I know little of Contador and Quintana's background)

Froome - started racing at 18. Still a full time economics student aged 20. Came from a country that has never produced another pro cyclist, grew up in a country that had produced about two.

Those other riders merely had earlier and easier opportunities

To ride a bike is not about production lines. Ireland produced 2 highly talented class riders from a minority of a minority sport in the 80s. Class is there in cycling or not. Just because Froome was a little later than others doesn't explain the massive jump in ability in 2 weeks in 2011.

Roglic moved sport at what age? 21?